Discovery 2: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8 - Page 2





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  1. #21
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    Cool Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Hey Jay_B

    Saw your bits on the shop floor at Miclin and Mike told me about your build.
    If he gets a request like that he normally wants to do most of the rotating bits, that's why he asked you for the pistons and rods to to do the fitment himself, and I mean he does it himself.

    I always ask for a "grind to fit" on the crank, so he boxes up the bearings, measures and then cuts the crank, not just cut as per spec.

    As for the ring gaps, yes, they normally a tad close so you need to grind them to get it right. The V8-Shoppe will get you a parallel ring grinder. Figures as given in this thread are correct: 1st 0.3-0.5 2nd 0.4-0.65

    What pistons did you use? 4.6 HC or 4.6 LC or the 4.0 LC If the original crank had 4.6 LC pistons and you now using 4.6 HC or 4.0 LC pistons you ideally should have the set balanced as the piston masses differ. But that said, the 4.6 does not rev well and 5000rpm sees it getting a bit asthmatic so not critical.

    Head bolts - buy only genuine LR bolts!! The ARP studs are too short in the block, forget it.
    Timing chain - buy only genuine LR!!

    Make sure your rockers are a good fit on the shaft, I have had many a brand new one sleeved and honed to a better fit, again Mike knows just how.

    Check all the lifter bores in the block for parallel and clearance, I have had many go flat at idle because of this issue!

    When assembling the rockers, check the lifter pre-load but try not to shim the pastilles unless absolutely necessary, it makes the angle of the pad on the valve stem too steep and pushes the valve stem to one side. Values up to 1.6mm are still ok if it means you can avoid shims.

    I wish you all the luck!!

    EbenH.
    '47 CJ2a
    '52 80"
    '67 109" sw 2.6
    '76 101" GS
    '97 100" Tdi
    100" 2.8PS shorty Hybrid SIIa (in progress)
    100" 300Tdi 5 door Hybrid R6 (in progress)
    110" 3.0 Isuzu Hybrid SII

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    If Eben Henning says they're good, then you believe him.

    I miss his knowledge.
    Thanks for the vote dude!
    I am still around, just gave up on the Rover V8 due to parts quality.
    '47 CJ2a
    '52 80"
    '67 109" sw 2.6
    '76 101" GS
    '97 100" Tdi
    100" 2.8PS shorty Hybrid SIIa (in progress)
    100" 300Tdi 5 door Hybrid R6 (in progress)
    110" 3.0 Isuzu Hybrid SII

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by customrv View Post
    Hey Jay_B

    Saw your bits on the shop floor at Miclin and Mike told me about your build.
    If he gets a request like that he normally wants to do most of the rotating bits, that's why he asked you for the pistons and rods to to do the fitment himself, and I mean he does it himself.

    I always ask for a "grind to fit" on the crank, so he boxes up the bearings, measures and then cuts the crank, not just cut as per spec.

    As for the ring gaps, yes, they normally a tad close so you need to grind them to get it right. The V8-Shoppe will get you a parallel ring grinder. Figures as given in this thread are correct: 1st 0.3-0.5 2nd 0.4-0.65

    What pistons did you use? 4.6 HC or 4.6 LC or the 4.0 LC If the original crank had 4.6 LC pistons and you now using 4.6 HC or 4.0 LC pistons you ideally should have the set balanced as the piston masses differ. But that said, the 4.6 does not rev well and 5000rpm sees it getting a bit asthmatic so not critical.

    Head bolts - buy only genuine LR bolts!! The ARP studs are too short in the block, forget it.
    Timing chain - buy only genuine LR!!

    Make sure your rockers are a good fit on the shaft, I have had many a brand new one sleeved and honed to a better fit, again Mike knows just how.

    Check all the lifter bores in the block for parallel and clearance, I have had many go flat at idle because of this issue!

    When assembling the rockers, check the lifter pre-load but try not to shim the pastilles unless absolutely necessary, it makes the angle of the pad on the valve stem too steep and pushes the valve stem to one side. Values up to 1.6mm are still ok if it means you can avoid shims.

    I wish you all the luck!!

    EbenH.
    Shimming to get the lifters right was something I had to learn the hard way.
    Rebuild my V8 and had no compression. I was stumped.
    There was nothing in the manual. Luckily I knew the RPI website and read through it.

    There they described how to do it. I think I shimmed to about 1.5mm.
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by customrv View Post
    Hey Jay_B

    Saw your bits on the shop floor at Miclin and Mike told me about your build.
    If he gets a request like that he normally wants to do most of the rotating bits, that's why he asked you for the pistons and rods to to do the fitment himself, and I mean he does it himself.

    I always ask for a "grind to fit" on the crank, so he boxes up the bearings, measures and then cuts the crank, not just cut as per spec.

    As for the ring gaps, yes, they normally a tad close so you need to grind them to get it right. The V8-Shoppe will get you a parallel ring grinder. Figures as given in this thread are correct: 1st 0.3-0.5 2nd 0.4-0.65

    What pistons did you use? 4.6 HC or 4.6 LC or the 4.0 LC If the original crank had 4.6 LC pistons and you now using 4.6 HC or 4.0 LC pistons you ideally should have the set balanced as the piston masses differ. But that said, the 4.6 does not rev well and 5000rpm sees it getting a bit asthmatic so not critical.

    Head bolts - buy only genuine LR bolts!! The ARP studs are too short in the block, forget it.
    Timing chain - buy only genuine LR!!

    Make sure your rockers are a good fit on the shaft, I have had many a brand new one sleeved and honed to a better fit, again Mike knows just how.

    Check all the lifter bores in the block for parallel and clearance, I have had many go flat at idle because of this issue!

    When assembling the rockers, check the lifter pre-load but try not to shim the pastilles unless absolutely necessary, it makes the angle of the pad on the valve stem too steep and pushes the valve stem to one side. Values up to 1.6mm are still ok if it means you can avoid shims.

    I wish you all the luck!!

    EbenH.
    Hi Eben,

    Thanks, lots to take in here and be mindful of - appreciate the input.
    Mike did an incredible job and like you said the crank was ground to fit with bearings he supplied, definitely preferential way of having it done.

    Pistons - have gone with new set of 4,6 HC pistons, not too sure what previously was in there, will pull them out and have a look.
    After discussing with Mike we agreed it wasn't going to be a high revving engine so decided against balancing the rotating assembly.

    V8 Shoppe is not far from me so if i need to grind down ring gaps will definitely stop in there, still need to get started on checking all gaps later this evening.

    I was going ARP head stud kit which was already imported but seems many here disagree with this.
    I know twinDisco is running them on his 4.6 with no issues as yet.
    Will investigate this more and see what i can find out.

    Timing chain and new CAM bolt from LR already done.

    Rocker assemblies coming out of my existing engine so will check them and refer back here once i have them out and ready for installation on the new heads.
    Good to know about shimming the pedastils, again will put all the lifter pre-load values up here fro comment once i have measured them all up.

    Anyways, off to the workshop to get started on those ring gaps
    Last edited by Jay_B; 2019/12/09 at 04:18 PM.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    If you replace the either the cam or the lifters, please replace the the other as well.

    What I mean is don't run the engine with either of those parts old and the other new.

    The old part will eat into the new one at an increased rate.

    The RPI website shows practical examples of this.
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Agree with jfh re the cam and lifters. Also, run in with a straight mineral oil and ZDDP additive and after that, for running, use you choice of oil with a ZDDP additive.
    Cheers,
    John Kilfoil

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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    About the ARP stud kit, read here..

    https://www.4x4community.co.za/forum...4-0-and-4-6The

    new stud kit is ARP 157-4301
    Last edited by TwinDisco; 2019/12/10 at 07:22 AM.
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by TwinDisco View Post
    About the ARP stud kit, read here..

    https://www.4x4community.co.za/forum...4-0-and-4-6The

    new stud kit is ARP 157-4301
    Hey Pieter,

    Did they produce the stud with the longer threads? I remember the last info it was too expensive to make us a batch
    I only built one motor with those short studs and drilling the first 5mm out to drop the stud down, but 4 years later one of those studs did pull out!

    EbenH.
    '47 CJ2a
    '52 80"
    '67 109" sw 2.6
    '76 101" GS
    '97 100" Tdi
    100" 2.8PS shorty Hybrid SIIa (in progress)
    100" 300Tdi 5 door Hybrid R6 (in progress)
    110" 3.0 Isuzu Hybrid SII

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by customrv View Post
    Hey Pieter,Did they produce the stud with the longer threads? I remember the last info it was too expensive to make us a batch I only built one motor with those short studs and drilling the first 5mm out to drop the stud down, but 4 years later one of those studs did pull out!EbenH.
    Indeed, 157-4301 is the kit with longer studs which ive used in my recent engine build.
    2006 VW Touareg 4.2 V8 Auto
    2000 Disco 2 GS 4.6 V8 Auto

    2013 Wildebeest Kalfie Boswa
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_B View Post
    Hi Eben,

    Thanks, lots to take in here and be mindful of - appreciate the input.
    Mike did an incredible job and like you said the crank was ground to fit with bearings he supplied, definitely preferential way of having it done.

    Pistons - have gone with new set of 4,6 HC pistons, not too sure what previously was in there, will pull them out and have a look.
    After discussing with Mike we agreed it wasn't going to be a high revving engine so decided against balancing the rotating assembly
    Is my understanding that the crank were grind to fit supplied bearings correct? In other words no journal will have the same size if cut to fit the bearings.

    Balancing an engine has nothing to do with rev`s. Yes a well balanced engine will rev higher and smoother than an engine that is not balanced. Balancing is all about reducing vibration and that adds to the longevity of the engine. Once you change pistons you need to rebalance the rotating assy this is the correct way of doing it if you expect your rebuild engine to last as long as a new engine.
    Last edited by grips; 2019/12/11 at 05:52 AM.
    It is not what you buy its what you build.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by grips View Post
    Is my understanding that the crank were grind to fit supplied bearings correct? In other words no journal will have the same size if cut to fit the bearings.

    Balancing an engine has nothing to do with rev`s. Yes a well balanced engine will rev higher and smoother than an engine that is not balanced. Balancing is all about reducing vibration and that adds to the longevity of the engine. Once you change pistons you need to rebalance the rotating assy this is the correct way of doing it if you expect your rebuild engine to last as long as a new engine.
    The bearings supplied are assembled in the various locations, measurements taken and the crank is cut to give specified clearances for each bearing. Obviously some averages are aimed for but cutting blindly to specifications given in the manual has proven to be less acceptable than cutting to measurements. Aftermarket spares for these motors have proven to be fair at best and purchasing from OEM sources makes for an unacceptable rebuild cost and even then the spares for these old motors don't come from LR anymore, many times you end up with the same blue packet in your hands.

    As for balancing, agreed, that is the correct way, but the forces in play and the effects on the rest of the motor at low revs are better dealt with by ensuring tolerances are kept tight. That is why more time is spent on this aspect. I use to balance every assembly I did until the balancing shop showed me the effects and benefits of my monies paid. Your best effort in this regard would be to ensure the dynamic mass (rod-piston-wrist pin-ring sets) is assembled in such a manner to ensure sets are within 5g of each other. This is done by matching heavier wrist pins with lighter pistons/ring sets and vice-versa. Even taking some material off the skirt of the piston or ends of wrist pins is done.

    If you have endless funds, technically there are hundreds of things you should do, but these engines are not worth spending that kind of money on and for 40% of the cost of a perfect rebuild you get a 90% perfect motor. The service this motor will do does not warrant the cost of a perfect build.

    Keep in mind, ALL of the money you spend on this rebuild will not be redeemed when you sell the vehicle, it is purely your own tolerance in this regard guiding your choices here.

    Disclaimer: I can only speak from my experiences and point of view in this regard, by no means am I telling you what is correct and what is wrong. I give you my middle-of-the-path opinion here which is based on maximum own effort and acceptable costs which has given me very good results on the last 9 rover V8 motors I built.

    Cheers,
    EbenH.
    '47 CJ2a
    '52 80"
    '67 109" sw 2.6
    '76 101" GS
    '97 100" Tdi
    100" 2.8PS shorty Hybrid SIIa (in progress)
    100" 300Tdi 5 door Hybrid R6 (in progress)
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Thanks Eben. I were just curious to find the reason for grinding the crank to bearing size.

    My experience with cutting the crank to bearing sizes is that if you need to change bearings down the line it is sometimes hard to find bearings with the correct clearances . If you don not get quality bearings as you say it is maybe the way to go. On Yank v8`s it is easy to keep to manufacturer specs with high quality aftermarket spares.

    As for balancing I have always use aftermarket rod sets that are already matched closely regarding weight. Same with pistons. The last set Keith Black pistons I have fitted had their weight engraved on them and were an exact match.
    I also understand that you do not want to break the bank and try to find a good reliable rebuild.
    It is not what you buy its what you build.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by jfh View Post
    If you replace the either the cam or the lifters, please replace the the other as well.

    What I mean is don't run the engine with either of those parts old and the other new.

    The old part will eat into the new one at an increased rate.

    The RPI website shows practical examples of this.

    No brainer with this - already have new Cam and lifters.
    Cam was cut from billet by Vanderlinde Developments to match the H180 profile.

    Assembly lube arrived so i can start fitting bearings, crank etc over the weekend.
    Break-in oil also arrived, will be running Ravenol SAE30 break-in oil for this purpose.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Some nice discussions going here, thanks all for the valuable input.

    Havent been able to get to gapping rings due to load shedding the last 2 nights when i have gotten home.
    Home early today and no scheduled lights out so heading that way now

    Need to double check my ARP studs now, make sure i was supplied the correct ones as per discussion above.

    Hopefully report back with ring gaps later tonight.

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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_B View Post
    Some nice discussions going here, thanks all for the valuable input.

    Havent been able to get to gapping rings due to load shedding the last 2 nights when i have gotten home.
    Home early today and no scheduled lights out so heading that way now

    Need to double check my ARP studs now, make sure i was supplied the correct ones as per discussion above.

    Hopefully report back with ring gaps later tonight.
    The right way to do it.
    I usually buy breaking oil and assembly lube from the V8 Shoppe
    It is not what you buy its what you build.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by customrv View Post
    The bearings supplied are assembled in the various locations, measurements taken and the crank is cut to give specified clearances for each bearing. Obviously some averages are aimed for but cutting blindly to specifications given in the manual has proven to be less acceptable than cutting to measurements. Aftermarket spares for these motors have proven to be fair at best and purchasing from OEM sources makes for an unacceptable rebuild cost and even then the spares for these old motors don't come from LR anymore, many times you end up with the same blue packet in your hands.



    Cheers,
    EbenH.
    Hi Eben with regards to the crank being ground to match individual bearings, i thought it would be done as you stated above.
    However it would seem only a single set of bearing were used to measure across all the big end journals as the others were still in the original plastic undisturbed.

    The mains may have been done differently for each bearing however i cant see any markings on each bearing to identify which journal it was fitted to when measured up.

    My concern right now is after inspecting all the bearings there are some i would prefer not to use and have thought of getting another box and taking out all the bearings i deem acceptable but im not sure if this will work given the way the crank has been ground with the supplied bearings.

    Will try post some photos of the bearings i am not in favor of.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Looks like you are going to have to spend some time with Plastigauge getting your bearing clearances sorted out correctly.
    https://www.gbbearings.co.za/plastigauge.html
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_B View Post
    Hi Eben with regards to the crank being ground to match individual bearings, i thought it would be done as you stated above.
    However it would seem only a single set of bearing were used to measure across all the big end journals as the others were still in the original plastic undisturbed.

    The mains may have been done differently for each bearing however i cant see any markings on each bearing to identify which journal it was fitted to when measured up.
    As I mentioned, an average is aimed for across the set. What we have found is that different batches (see packing batch number) over the years have produced different sizes and even some unacceptable values. Mic your crank before you install it, they would all be same values, but not necessarily 100% as per book.

    If you want to replace some bearings you have to box up the new bearing in the assembly and measure them. Then measure the crank and work out the clearances. Clearances are given in the rebuild manual. Take 3 or more measurements around the circumference and average them. For the cross bolted block, you have to install the cross bolts and torque them up before measuring, it makes a difference. BTDT.

    The intent here is to confirm the quality of the bearing set supplied and the deformation when torqued down. If the locating tabs where too long the bearings would not seat well and they would have been returned for a different batch No set. BTDT.

    Even if there are surface marks on the bearings, you can touch them up with a 1000+ paper and oil. Obviously within limits.

    Send pics of the problem ones ?

    EbenH.
    '47 CJ2a
    '52 80"
    '67 109" sw 2.6
    '76 101" GS
    '97 100" Tdi
    100" 2.8PS shorty Hybrid SIIa (in progress)
    100" 300Tdi 5 door Hybrid R6 (in progress)
    110" 3.0 Isuzu Hybrid SII

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    On a different note I collected these beautiful pieces of engineering today...
    Its things like this that inspired me as a kid to study engineering.

    Work done by CamtechSA, highly recommended - Gerald is an awesome guy and knows his stuff.
    Valve guides were still in spec.

    - Gas flow/port
    - Skim
    - Cut 3 angle or radius seats
    - Swirl polish valves
    - Clean and assemble, including installation of new stem seals

    Click image for larger version. 

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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by customrv View Post
    As I mentioned, an average is aimed for across the set. What we have found is that different batches (see packing batch number) over the years have produced different sizes and even some unacceptable values. Mic your crank before you install it, they would all be same values, but not necessarily 100% as per book.

    If you want to replace some bearings you have to box up the new bearing in the assembly and measure them. Then measure the crank and work out the clearances. Clearances are given in the rebuild manual. Take 3 or more measurements around the circumference and average them. For the cross bolted block, you have to install the cross bolts and torque them up before measuring, it makes a difference. BTDT.

    The intent here is to confirm the quality of the bearing set supplied and the deformation when torqued down. If the locating tabs where too long the bearings would not seat well and they would have been returned for a different batch No set. BTDT.

    Even if there are surface marks on the bearings, you can touch them up with a 1000+ paper and oil. Obviously within limits.

    Send pics of the problem ones ?

    EbenH.
    Pictures below of bearings I am not too happy with, I could also just be overly pedantic

    Click image for larger version. 

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