Discovery 2: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8 - Page 10





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  1. #181
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by TwinDisco View Post
    The NAS D2 4.6 uses the bigger MAF (as per the P38) and the bigger pipe/top airbox. However the throttle bodies are exactly the same size between the 4.0 and 4/6 so I dont understand any gains by using the bigger MAF etc. on the D2.
    My own D2 has a slightly modified 4.6 running the std 4.0 ecu/maf etc for 10 years now without a problem. But I do understand that more power/torque can be extracted by running a custom map for the 4.6.
    Reason why these parts need replacing is the extra air flowing past the sensor is dare I say for a better word 'Rushing' past and so the MAF sensor is given a higher factor than it really is due to the SMALLER diameter of the maf sensor housing and the intake pipe, the throttle body remains the same but it can be modded if you REALLY want to go that way, Ref Jaguar, they use a slightly larger throttle body that bolts straight on

    Changing the following is important as the fuel consumption is off the chart.
    1.Top air filter housing, this is replaced so it can accommodate the larger Maf sensor, the later P38 has the same top cover
    2. Maf sensor, this sensor is the same as the later P38, larger diameter but the electronic sensor within the housing is the same as the D2 4.0L.
    3. Intake pipe from maf to throttle body is larger and is required to attach to the larger Maf sensor
    4. Engine Computer, commonly know as the ECU the 4.0 and 4.6 have very different curves, if one can be sourced from the USA for next to nothing give it a try
    sadly we never got this far even though I was keen the customer did not go further, understanding fuel mapping etc I can say without doubt the correct ECU
    will radically change everything, the 4.6 fitted with D2 std pistons makes it a high compression motor and its not timid, walks a lexus V8 anyday and this can be ref
    when the Lexus SUV came out with the 4,7 and they did a comparison against the 4.0L V8 Range Rover cos the motor magazine back then were gutless to try the 4.6 Range Rover

    We tried a few remappers but they couldn't get it right with the Bosch ECU, having done loads of research it 'seems' its not possible
    Don't waste your time with piggy back systems either, I lost count how many of these 'performance' chips I've ripped off Land Rovers
    Last edited by viperover; 2020/04/21 at 11:18 PM.

  2. #182
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by jfh View Post
    On the 3.5 V8 you prime the oil pump by packing it with vasiline.
    Shown in the manual.

    Works extremely well.
    When you start her for the first time, keep an eye on the oil pressure light.
    Kill the engine if it hasn't gone out in 2-3 seconds.
    Do it a few times until it the light goes out while swinging.

    But most probably this isn't your first time working on an engine.
    No need to pack pump with vaseline, the preferred way I do is to fill all the oil passages and pump with oil before tipping motor back over
    As the starter motor is already attached we swing the motor over whilst on the stand, oil pressure is near instant (use a multimeter), this is done with sump and rocker covers off, oil pick up is immersed into a normal 5l oil container with oil in....obviously
    This way we can see ALL the moving parts getting lubricated, when the final start is done in the vehicle its good to go

  3. #183
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by viperover View Post
    Reason why these parts need replacing is the extra air flowing past the sensor is dare I say for a better word 'Rushing' past and so the MAF sensor is given a higher factor than it really is due to the SMALLER diameter of the maf sensor housing and the intake pipe, the throttle body remains the same but it can be modded if you REALLY want to go that way, Ref Jaguar, they use a slightly larger throttle body that bolts straight on

    Changing the following is important as the fuel consumption is off the chart.
    1.Top air filter housing, this is replaced so it can accommodate the larger Maf sensor, the later P38 has the same top cover
    2. Maf sensor, this sensor is the same as the later P38, larger diameter but the electronic sensor within the housing is the same as the D2 4.0L.
    3. Intake pipe from maf to throttle body is larger and is required to attach to the larger Maf sensor
    4. Engine Computer, commonly know as the ECU the 4.0 and 4.6 have very different curves, if one can be sourced from the USA for next to nothing give it a try
    sadly we never got this far even though I was keen the customer did not go further, understanding fuel mapping etc I can say without doubt the correct ECU
    will radically change everything, the 4.6 fitted with D2 std pistons makes it a high compression motor and its not timid, walks a lexus V8 anyday and this can be ref
    when the Lexus SUV came out with the 4,7 and they did a comparison against the 4.0L V8 Range Rover cos the motor magazine back then were gutless to try the 4.6 Range Rover

    We tried a few remappers but they couldn't get it right with the Bosch ECU, having done loads of research it 'seems' its not possible
    Don't waste your time with piggy back systems either, I lost count how many of these 'performance' chips I've ripped off Land Rovers
    Do you perhaps know what the part number is for the correct and bigger MAF, from what i find part number MHK100800 is the same for both motors using the Bosch system from '99 on wards?

    How much larger is the intake pipe going to the throttle body?
    Have you perhaps ever looked at making up a new intake pipe using silicone hosing with the correct bigger diameter rather than going the original more expensive route through a dealer. Im sure it could also be found from a vehicle being scrapped but im just considering other ideas.

    Interested in what you say regarding the ECU, will have to do some shopping and see what i can find.

  4. #184
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_B View Post
    Do you perhaps know what the part number is for the correct and bigger MAF, from what i find part number MHK100800 is the same for both motors using the Bosch system from '99 on wards?

    How much larger is the intake pipe going to the throttle body?
    Have you perhaps ever looked at making up a new intake pipe using silicone hosing with the correct bigger diameter rather than going the original more expensive route through a dealer. Im sure it could also be found from a vehicle being scrapped but im just considering other ideas.

    Interested in what you say regarding the ECU, will have to do some shopping and see what i can find.
    Correct pn for maf but may pay to call around and see if you can find a blown one, remove your sensor from housing and save your self some serious money, steer far from unbranded mafs, Bosch is original

    The intake pipe difference is very noticeable, I might be wrong here but the 1997-8 P38 intake pipe is the same as to is the air filter top cover, be worth hunting around on the net or registering up on a USA disco forum to see if you could source a good 2nd pipe from there, 2nd hand parts like this have no value abroad, new here was roughly R530 ex UK (some time back), took around a week for Land Rover Durban to get it in for me, I rate them highly vs others in my area.

    The ecu is derived from the BMW 7 series ......hint.....maybe , just maybe it could be adapted to run the D2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_Rover_(P38A) see section of engine where it lists ecu
    Haven't really done much searching regarding the NA 4,6 D2 but if you head down in the following link you'll note the 4,6 was only used much later
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Discovery ideal to get a part number for this version of the D2 4,6

    Just note thought the NA uses lamda sensors on each pipe
    Last edited by viperover; 2020/04/22 at 03:53 PM.

  5. #185
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by viperover View Post
    The ecu is derived from the BMW 7 series ......hint.....maybe , just maybe it could be adapted to run the D2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_Rover_(P38A) see section of engine where it lists ecu
    Haven't really done much searching regarding the NA 4,6 D2 but if you head down in the following link you'll note the 4,6 was only used much later
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Discovery ideal to get a part number for this version of the D2 4,6

    Just note thought the NA uses lamda sensors on each pipe
    IMHO any decent new tech aftermarket ECU like Megasquirt would do a better job, the old Bosch ECU was batch injection and you can get better performance these days by implementing batch-sequential and full sequential using a combo of Crank and Cam Position sensors. You can also specify decent upstream and downstream closed loop O2 sensing for proper A/F ratios. Lastly there is also proper support for airflow as well as air pressure sensors to manage altitude correction.

    But that's just my opinion.
    Jakes Louw
    2012 Jeep Sahara Unlimited 3.6 V6
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    IMHO any decent new tech aftermarket ECU like Megasquirt would do a better job, the old Bosch ECU was batch injection and you can get better performance these days by implementing batch-sequential and full sequential using a combo of Crank and Cam Position sensors. You can also specify decent upstream and downstream closed loop O2 sensing for proper A/F ratios. Lastly there is also proper support for airflow as well as air pressure sensors to manage altitude correction.

    But that's just my opinion.
    Not true. The bosch motronics used in the Disco 2 is fully sequential. And i would like to see someone doing a better job with an aftermsrket ecu.

    The lucas 14CUX on the disco 1 can be bettered with an afternarket ecu.. not the bosch motronics.
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  8. #187
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by TwinDisco View Post
    Not true. The bosch motronics used in the Disco 2 is fully sequential. And i would like to see someone doing a better job with an aftermsrket ecu.

    The lucas 14CUX on the disco 1 can be bettered with an afternarket ecu.. not the bosch motronics.

    Thanks, it's been a few years since I looked at the Motronic spec.
    Jakes Louw
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by TwinDisco View Post
    Not true. The bosch motronics used in the Disco 2 is fully sequential. And i would like to see someone doing a better job with an aftermsrket ecu.

    The lucas 14CUX on the disco 1 can be bettered with an afternarket ecu.. not the bosch motronics.
    100%, even in the usa when you buy a project motor you can also buy a open ECU from GM if buying a GM motor etc

  10. #189
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    Thanks, it's been a few years since I looked at the Motronic spec.
    I've yet to see a good aftermarket ECU do what they claim, there's always issues.

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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Been doing a lot of reading on various forums about the difference in ECUs and below is probably the best i have found from someone who has done a fair bit in-depth studying to the various maps.

    So first big difficulty i see is it may be near impossible finding a standard 4.6 ECU without SAI, so while it seems there is a lot to be said and a lot of merit to running the 4.6 ECU mapping for the best performance i think the road to getting there is just filled with gremlins and headaches.

    ViperRover maybe i am overlooking something here, but what is your best suggestion for getting the mapping correct for the 4.6?
    I am still trying to find a reliable source that shows the difference in diameter sizes for the MAF housing and plenum tube.

    Anyone with a P38 willing to measure it for us?

    Disco Motronic ECU differences
    There are quite a few differences between the NAS (North American Specification) and ROW (Rest Of World) 4.0 and 4.6 Discoveries, and P38 Range Rovers.

    I have studied them all in great detail for hundreds of hours in order to be able to reprogram them (which I have been doing successfully for over a year now), so the differences will be of interest. I don't want to be accused of promoting my business here, so I'm just going to stick to providing system information or responding to specific non-sales questions here.

    The 4.6 Disco II was only sold in the NAS market, and it was fitted with the high-compression version of the engine. All of these vehicles had SAI (Secondary Air Injection) without exception. They were also fitted with a larger AFM (Air Flow Meter) akin to the P38, so they also had a different air filter housing and AFM to plenum trunk to accommodate the physical difference. Therefore putting a 4.6 ECU onto a 4.0 vehicle will not work properly, unless you use the larger AFM and associated parts also.

    Using an SAI ECU in a non-SAI vehicle will cause it to put the CEL (Check Engine Lamp) on, although it doesn't always seem to cause them to go into limp-home mode.

    There are three part numbers for the hardware versions of the the Disco Motronic ECU, but dozens of different tunes that are loaded into them. The ECU contains only one tune, specifically for the vehicle it was originally programmed for. It also contains the history, programming, and security information for that specific vehicle. Every ECU carries a label from the factory with the VIN number and software number that it was loaded with, unless it is a replacement part.

    Note that it is not possible to implant a non-SAI tune into an SAI ECU or vice-versa, since there are enough hardware differences to stop it working. It runs, but really badly with lots of faults flagged. That is quite a pity, although I am continuing my studies to see if that can be overcome. Obviously it will never be possible to put an SAI tune into a non-SAI ECU (and who would want to?) since there are quite a few components not installed.

    However it is quite straightforward to reprogram a 4.0 Litre non-SAI ECU with a 4.6 tune for the standard AFM, or even larger engines of the type we see over here (4.8 and 5.0 Litre are well known).

    It seems that when BMW owned LR their marketing weasels deliberately nobbled the Disco against the P38 when tuning it, to prevent it being as quick. To that end they knocked a massive hole in the mid-range ignition timing, and it runs Lambda 1.0 across nearly the entire operating range. It does run open-loop at high load - it's just that the target is still Lambda 1.0 apart from the highest load and rev range. The P38 does feature a richer mixture under high load, but again the timing is not optimal.

    These engines often pink or detonate because they have too lean a mixture, rather than just being an ignition timing issue. A colder grade of spark plug is good too.

    https://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery...i-2-print.html

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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    I also read that thread many moons ago. The guy is Mark Adams, a brit. Well known for his tuning on the RV8.
    On my RRC i was running a modified 4.6 and the Lucas 14CUX EFI fitted with a Tornado chip sourced from the very Mark Adams.
    Mark can re-map the 4.0 ecu with a custom 4.6 map, but it means sending your 4.0 ecu overseas, he will do the map, and send it back to you. And the whole tooty is not cheap.
    So I am keen to find a local guy that can do this. Maybe Viperover know a guy named Nicky there around Durbs. Can he maybe do this?
    Last edited by TwinDisco; 2020/04/24 at 01:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Ive already got the P38 MAF housing and aircleaner top part lying in my garage for ages, waiting for a local solution.
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  14. #193
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by TwinDisco View Post
    I also read that thread many moons ago. The guy is Mark Adams, a brit. Well known for his tuning on the RV8.
    On my RRC i was running a modified 4.6 and the Lucal 14CUX EFI fitted with a Tornado chip sourced from the very Mark Adams.
    Mark can re-map the 4.0 ecu with a custom 4.6 map, but it means sending your 4.0 ecu overseas, he will do the map, and send it back to you. And the whole tooty is not cheap.
    So I am keen to find a local guy that can do this. Maybe Viperover know a guy named Nicky there around Durbs. Can he maybe do this?
    Nicky from Rovertec, yipe know him very well but he has now opened another branch in the Cape, though still retaining his other outlet here in Pinetown
    Nope he cant reprogram the Bosch V8 ecu and it cant be reprogrammed, however as stated correctly the LUCAS can be reprogrammed by replacing the the cips within.

    The earlier P38 uses the Lucas ECU of which there were various updates as time moved on with the last being in 2000, the later P38 99 4.6 on uses the bosch ECU, there was no 4.0 on the later P38s fitted with the thor engine.
    I tried several ECU programmers here and none could assist, if there was demand for this required service I would have gone further but there's no demand and never will be, the D2 has run it course, it looks as if the best solution would be to bring in the USA version ecu, but.......

    Its still very possible to use the P38 ecu as I recall a install in a Defender 90 that was fitted with the 4,6 thor engine and ecu, the ecu was then synced to the Defenders immobilizer unit via diagnostic system and it runs, that could be a viable alternative.....

    The Disco 2 V8 that hit the SA market were originally destined for Malaysian market due to their poor fuel hence the low compression but were diverted here and Australia for some odd reason.
    At the time there was a news article relating to this move, if this never happened would it have been a possibility the D2 with the 4,6 fitted have hit our shores, we'll never know....
    Last edited by viperover; 2020/04/24 at 01:31 PM.
    30 years experience and knowledge certainly out weighs a 5min keyboard bashing on google
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  15. #194
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by TwinDisco View Post
    Ive already got the P38 MAF housing and aircleaner top part lying in my garage for ages, waiting for a local solution.
    So now you just need the pipe......I would just order one from LR, under the D2 section on their parts it shows the 4.6 system and related parts
    It would be crazy to hold off on not replacing these parts as I m very well aware how much MORE fuel it uses, you would make up the money saved in no time, its a no brainer
    Last edited by viperover; 2020/04/24 at 01:35 PM.
    30 years experience and knowledge certainly out weighs a 5min keyboard bashing on google
    Love's electrickery stuff and problems related to it as long as it dont go bang cos then its f......
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    So if you can't re-use the P38 motronic on the D2, and the D2 ECU runs too lean, what options are there? Or have I understood this wrongly as usual?
    Jakes Louw
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    So if you can't re-use the P38 motronic on the D2, and the D2 ECU runs too lean, what options are there? Or have I understood this wrongly as usual?
    With a T4 diagnostic tool, the fuel map can be adjusted, leaner or richer, but it lifts the complete map up or down, and cannot adjust separete load points in the map.
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by TwinDisco View Post
    With a T4 diagnostic tool, the fuel map can be adjusted, leaner or richer, but it lifts the complete map up or down, and cannot adjust separete load points in the map.
    so aftermarket is the way to go?
    Jakes Louw
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by viperover View Post
    Its still very possible to use the P38 ecu as I recall a install in a Defender 90 that was fitted with the 4,6 thor engine and ecu, the ecu was then synced to the Defenders immobilizer unit via diagnostic system and it runs, that could be a viable alternative.........
    We have tried a P38 ecu on the D2. We used a T4. When installing a new engine ECU, the new ECU must learn the security code from the BCU to enable going from a immobilised state to un-immobilised state. The P38 uses a BCEM vs a BCU in the D2. The T4 would flip out when requesting the code learning from the "BCU" when the P38 ECU expects the code to come from a "BCEM".
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    so aftermarket is the way to go?
    Not neccesarily.... As i said i am running a std 4.0 ECU in my 4.6 D2 for 10 years now without problems. I realize that a proper map might improve power and fuel consumption, but its not a race car, and i am getting decent consumption (for a V8) when sticking to the speed limit.
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    Default Re: Build and assembly of 4.6L V8

    Quote Originally Posted by TwinDisco View Post
    We have tried a P38 ecu on the D2. We used a T4. When installing a new engine ECU, the new ECU must learn the security code from the BCU to enable going from a immobilised state to un-immobilised state. The P38 uses a BCEM vs a BCU in the D2. The T4 would flip out when requesting the code learning from the "BCU" when the P38 ECU expects the code to come from a "BCEM".
    It works on the defender system, no mods, was told you simply wire up the security signal from bosch ecu to the defender immobiliser wire and it get synced.

    The p38 ecu will not sync to the D2 as the D2 uses a different protocol and algorithms, this I saw myself when connected up
    30 years experience and knowledge certainly out weighs a 5min keyboard bashing on google
    Love's electrickery stuff and problems related to it as long as it dont go bang cos then its f......
    NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT
    A V8 is where thunder is made
    100%WEE

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