Discovery 1 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?





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    Default 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    My 300 Tdi (that I bought recently) goes nicely, but there's a lot of blowby. It also uses lots of oil.

    My theory is that the rings may be a bit "pap" from a previous overheating incident. This comes from two owners back, since there's evidence that the head was removed and pressure tested about 3 years ago.

    I had another minor overheating incident today, when the little bleed hose to the thermostat burst at the top of Magoebaskloof. It blew out 5 litres of water, but I stopped even before the Madman went off (smelt the coolant and saw the temp readout of the Madman fluctuate).

    I can't see any pressure buildup in the cooling system or anything, but a slight "popping" type of misfire that's always been there, is a bit worse. I suspect lower than acceptable compression on one cylinder, possibly because of the rings.

    Question: I'm thinking of whipping the head and sump off and doing the rings (after checking condition of the bores, of course!). I think it makes sense to do main and big-end bearings at the same time.

    What do you guys think? It can't be too expensive an exercise, and might give the peace of mind of having also done an internal inspection of this engine which has been through quite a few owners but never been "done" as far as we know.

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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Check that "Y" piece on the bleeding pipe for blockage.

    And remember to check piston pretrusion after fitting.

    If head is in bad shape, rather replace it. Don't skim or weld.
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by jfh View Post
    Check that "Y" piece on the bleeding pipe for blockage.

    And remember to check piston pretrusion after fitting.

    If head is in bad shape, rather replace it. Don't skim or weld.
    You have good advice, jfh.

    The Y-piece is fine, it's a brass one I inherited from the previous owner of my previous landy, and does the job magnificently. The problem was, that someone used Goodyear low-pressure fuel hose for that bleed pipe, and it's just too soft, especially at high temps. I usually replace this little pipe quite often, but it caught me out.

    Agreed about the head. I'm sitting with similar problems on my other Landy, the one that's being scrapped - I find that the head is cracked in one of the exhaust ports - it was a reman engine but the head was not new (I know for sure). Hence I feel, rather recon the engine yourself and use the saved money to replace the head - "checked, good" is not good enough when you don't know the history.

    Eish, I don't want to replace a head now! I don't have R10K lying around!

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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by antvz View Post
    My 300 Tdi (that I bought recently) goes nicely, but there's a lot of blowby. It also uses lots of oil.

    My theory is that the rings may be a bit "pap" from a previous overheating incident. This comes from two owners back, since there's evidence that the head was removed and pressure tested about 3 years ago.

    I had another minor overheating incident today, when the little bleed hose to the thermostat burst at the top of Magoebaskloof. It blew out 5 litres of water, but I stopped even before the Madman went off (smelt the coolant and saw the temp readout of the Madman fluctuate).

    I can't see any pressure buildup in the cooling system or anything, but a slight "popping" type of misfire that's always been there, is a bit worse. I suspect lower than acceptable compression on one cylinder, possibly because of the rings.

    Question: I'm thinking of whipping the head and sump off and doing the rings (after checking condition of the bores, of course!). I think it makes sense to do main and big-end bearings at the same time.

    What do you guys think? It can't be too expensive an exercise, and might give the peace of mind of having also done an internal inspection of this engine which has been through quite a few owners but never been "done" as far as we know.
    Hi Anthony

    before you start dismantling the engine do the following:

    1. The small hose from the expansion bottle to the top of the radiator, cut the hose at the radiator longitudinally, as otherwise you risk braking of the plastic pip. Now probe with a drill or Philips screwdriver just marginally smaller than the ID of the pip. There must be no obstruction into the radiator. Just move the probe forwards and backwards to clear all the scale out.

    That will sort out your pressure build up in the cooling system. As I have already travelled in excess of 4 Mio. km's this has happened to me on a few occasions already, once on my D1 300Tdi as well.

    Now add 1 litre of 2sO per tank filling and repeat for three complete tank fillings. If blowby reduces to normal levels, then it was just sticky rings. If engine starts easily when cold you might get away with the 2sO trick. This was the problem on my 300Tdi as well. Otherwise it will be a complete tear down of the engine.

    I just hope that you won't have a repeat of that sh#t engine repair saga you had on the 2 Door 300Tdi of yours.

    That was one of the worst jobs that I have ever seen done on a Land Rover vehicle. Was it rebuilt twice or 3 times, before it was part fixed

    Good luck

    George
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2019/11/03 at 07:38 PM.
    George Bosch
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post
    Hi Anthony

    before you start dismantling the engine do the following:

    1. The small hose from the expansion bottle to the top of the radiator, cut the hose at the radiator longitudinally, as otherwise you risk braking of the plastic pip. Now probe with a drill or Philips screwdriver just marginally smaller than the ID of the pip. There must be no obstruction into the radiator. Just move the probe forwards and backwards to clear all the scale out.

    That will sort out your pressure build up in the cooling system. As I have already travelled in excess of 4 Mio. km's this has happened to me on a few occasions already, once on my D1 300Tdi as well.

    Now add 1 litre of 2sO per tank filling and repeat for three complete tank fillings. If blowby reduces to normal levels, then it was just sticky rings. If engine starts easily when cold you might get away with the 2sO trick. This was the problem on my 300Tdi as well. Otherwise it will be a complete tear down of the engine.

    I just hope that you won't have a repeat of that sh#t engine repair saga you had on the 2 Door 300Tdi of yours.

    That was one of the worst jobs that I have ever seen done on a Land Rover vehicle. Was it rebuilt twice or 3 times, before it was part fixed

    Good luck

    George
    Hi George,

    Thanks for the advice.

    Regarding the radiator thing, I checked when I installed the radiator that the little thing was clear. Pressure in the cooling system is normal and I'm not experiencing any issues.

    I read about your 2SO trick and did put some in when I got the car. And yes, the engine still does start nicely, just uses a hell of a lot of oil. It's been used for some nice long trips, too, and no improvement. Also, when I removed the old injectors (replaced them with "mine") there was very little carbon buildup so I have no reason to think that it's coked up. Just my luck, isn't it. I do have some money on my "pap rings" theory, though.

    Regarding that previous rebuild, the best I can do is learn from it! Hence I'm also going to tap this forum for a bit of advice as to which parts are not-reusable (e.g. conrod bolts).

    Just based on the general condition of the engine, and the fact that it has plenty of "oomph", I don't feel the need to rebuild it all right now - just sort out the oil usage before that causes its own problems.

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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by antvz View Post
    Hi George,

    Thanks for the advice.

    Regarding the radiator thing, I checked when I installed the radiator that the little thing was clear. Pressure in the cooling system is normal and I'm not experiencing any issues.

    I read about your 2SO trick and did put some in when I got the car. And yes, the engine still does start nicely, just uses a hell of a lot of oil. It's been used for some nice long trips, too, and no improvement. Also, when I removed the old injectors (replaced them with "mine") there was very little carbon buildup so I have no reason to think that it's coked up. Just my luck, isn't it. I do have some money on my "pap rings" theory, though.

    Regarding that previous rebuild, the best I can do is learn from it! Hence I'm also going to tap this forum for a bit of advice as to which parts are not-reusable (e.g. conrod bolts).

    Just based on the general condition of the engine, and the fact that it has plenty of "oomph", I don't feel the need to rebuild it all right now - just sort out the oil usage before that causes its own problems.
    Ok then throw in 1 liter 2sO tomorrow and repeat 3X as per my last posting. My 300Tdi had impressive blowby, used nearly 1 liter of oil per 1000km, when I got it. Sold it in 2015 with 380'000km unopened and in tip top shape
    George Bosch
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by antvz View Post
    I think it makes sense to do main and big-end bearings at the same time.

    .
    I might be misinterpreting your post, but do replace the main bearings means engine out.
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Theron View Post
    I might be misinterpreting your post, but do replace the main bearings means engine out.
    indeed, I'd love to chat to anybody who thinks a main bearing replacement can be done properly in situ
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    The turbo could be passing excessive oil. If compression was down i would expect the engine to feel pap... not have "oomf" as you describe.
    worth pulling your intercooler and checking for oil. also pull intake pipe and feel if you have play on the turbo shaft.
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Theron View Post
    I might be misinterpreting your post, but do replace the main bearings means engine out.
    Yes, of course you're right! I can be a bit of a numbskull sometimes.

    But big-ends can and should be replaced, right? And I can get the pistons out the top, hone the cylinders and replace the rings?

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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by antvz View Post
    Yes, of course you're right! I can be a bit of a numbskull sometimes.

    But big-ends can and should be replaced, right? And I can get the pistons out the top, hone the cylinders and replace the rings?
    In theory what you say is correct yes. My experience in general with diesel engines are that it is a short term solution. At minimum, take off a main bearing cap or two and check the condition of the liner(s).
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by iLandy View Post
    The turbo could be passing excessive oil. If compression was down i would expect the engine to feel pap... not have "oomf" as you describe.
    worth pulling your intercooler and checking for oil. also pull intake pipe and feel if you have play on the turbo shaft.
    No such luck, I'm afraid.

    Turbo is not new, no. It has about 100 000 km on it. I transferred it over from the previous engine and car. There was no oil in the intercooler of the old car, in fact it was beautifully clean. I have a slightly uneven idle and lots of blowby, all of which remained the same with both injection pumps and both sets of injectors (old and "new"). I get the feeling all cylinders are burning lots of oil, yet compression is OK, hence my deduction that it's the rings.

    Or I haven't persevered long enough with the "hbosch hypothesis" - but I've found out by now that this sort of luck only happens to other people :-) and my problems are never that simple. Surely there should have been some improvement after the first two tanks of 2SO and the long runs as the stuff got unstuck.

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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Theron View Post
    In theory what you say is correct yes. My experience in general with diesel engines are that it is a short term solution. At minimum, take off a main bearing cap or two and check the condition of the liner(s).
    Might be worth while.

    I hear what you say, if the engine is using oil it's generally time for a proper rebuild. And I don't like to take short cuts either. On the other hand, I need this car to "work" for itself a bit before I can really afford to pay for a complete overhaul. If the engine was clearly down on compression I would probably not hesitate to rebuild, but the fact that it starts easily and runs well makes me think twice before stripping the whole thing down.

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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Did you check the sump compression like in the video below?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rhmYRqUSYBA
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    If you're going to all the trouble to strip the head and sump off, this surely implies removing both manifolds, all the coolant, aircon, alternator, power steering, etc etc etc........you're about an hour short of being able to pull the block out.........

    Honing will cause grit and steel residue: this will fall out of the cylinders and collect on the crank, how do you propose keeping everything spotless?
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Theron View Post
    In theory what you say is correct yes. My experience in general with diesel engines are that it is a short term solution. At minimum, take off a main bearing cap or two and check the condition of the liner(s).
    Is it as easy as just removing the bearing cap, checking the half of the liner you have access to, then putting it back again and torquing the bolts correctly? Nothing that cannot be refitted without replacing or checking a clearance?

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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by jfh View Post
    Did you check the sump compression like in the video below?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rhmYRqUSYBA
    Pretty much like that, yes.

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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    If you're going to all the trouble to strip the head and sump off, this surely implies removing both manifolds, all the coolant, aircon, alternator, power steering, etc etc etc........you're about an hour short of being able to pull the block out.........

    Honing will cause grit and steel residue: this will fall out of the cylinders and collect on the crank, how do you propose keeping everything spotless?
    On a 300 Tdi it's a lot simpler. Removing the head is almost trivial since not only is it a pushrod setup (no OHC) but nothing is actually anchored to it. So no alternator, powersteering, belt removal, etc. My cam belt and injection pump remains in situ.

    I will replace all radiator hoses too, and will drain the coolant. But radiator, intercooler, starter, etc. all can stay in situ. Manifolds are also trivial.

    Hearing what you say about residue - there are ways to keep it to a minimum, especially if you just literally want to break the glaze and that's all. Need to think about this...

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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Quote Originally Posted by antvz View Post
    Is it as easy as just removing the bearing cap, checking the half of the liner you have access to, then putting it back again and torquing the bolts correctly? Nothing that cannot be refitted without replacing or checking a clearance?
    I have only ever overhauled one 300Tdi motor and that was 23 years ago, but I think the main bearing bolts are stretch bolts. So maybe just fit new bolts. But just check to be sure.
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi Rings and bearings replacement job?

    Antvz, you are exactly where I was after buying a 90tdi for my wife in 2015. With kilos in the high end of 300k it pulled well but used a lot of oil. Never struggle to start, did not use water. Had leaks yes like power steering pipes leaking, sump leaking and whatever. It was mainly used by the wife for shopping, etc. around the neighborhood and we have my 90tdi for the long trips so was OK to check and topping up oil every 2nd weekend. On a trip to Ponta and back my son used her landy and it used easily 10 litres of oil. It puzzled me how it could be that thirsty for oil so every now and then I checked and tried this and that. Also swopped turbos out but eventually realised that it was just wear. May this year it was time and took it apart. Was just wear in the sleeves and rings caput. I overhauled the engine. Re-bored with 20 thou pistons, new AMC head (old head had cracks between valves), new oil pump, front timing cover, new starter, p/steering pump, clutch, etc, etc. I imported heavy duty (lead copper) main and big end bearings from Turner engineering in the UK as I could only get the normal aluminum bearings locally (had a big-end problem with my 90tdi before and used same so wanted to fit the leadcoppers again).

    What amazed me was that with all the oil use (and leaking I must add) I never hesitated using the tdi on longer trips as I always knew it will use oil but wont stop. In that condition I bought it in Cape Town and drove it up to PTA. After that it went twice to Mozambique and back and some other shorter trips.

    So in my opinion, your oil usage is just due to wear.

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