Ethics of purchasers choice - Page 6





Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6
Results 101 to 116 of 116
  1. #101
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Edenvale
    Age
    60
    Posts
    572

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    This reminds me of the old question:

    Have you stopped beating your Wife? Yes/No
    Citroen C5
    Touareg V8
    Audi A6 3.0 Avant

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Randpark Ridge
    Age
    52
    Posts
    2,350

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    Quote Originally Posted by deanMorris View Post
    No, I'm not trolling. No I'm not doing consumer research.

    I'm trying to understand why there is so little outrage against manufacturers that deceive and lie and hurt. Why are so many people outraged when our president steals, but none seem to care when a manufacturer uses animals to test exhaust emissions? No seems to care when a manufacturer uses bypass routines in their code base to deceive consumers and regulators about emissions. Why are these lies (about which you can do something) so less important because they affect a brand (or brands) that you either own or feel loyal to for some reason?

    If you expect ethical and moral behaviour in others but one fails to represent such in one's self because it is inconvenient or uncomfortable to do so, how can you honestly expect it in others?

    I'm a resolute believer in doing the right thing; how many others are?
    I am with Jelo on this

    I hope you ride a Bicycle, never drive off road, never leave the tracks in front of you, never pick up wood in the bush for a fire, never use doom etc. as some people would believe you to be un-ethical.

    As for me,
    I still need to find a car manufacturer that divulges everything.
    I still need to find a tree huger that doesn't use rubber, leather and fuel.
    I still need to find a tree huger that doesn't eat commercially produced food

    What I do,
    I do drive off road a lot.
    I have been known to drive through bush in necessity, and helped create new trails.
    I have used old dead wood for camp fires
    I hunt which is deemed un-ethical

    We are all pretty much a yes and yes, if we off road, make fires, speed, hunt etc, It's just how we perceive it according to our ethics.
    Discovery 3 TDV6 S G4 No 29 - Mine
    Discovery 4 TDV6 SE - SWAMBO's

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Kloof
    Age
    47
    Posts
    19

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dewald Posthumus View Post
    So you are a vegan?
    Yes.

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Centurion
    Posts
    1,024

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbiddog View Post
    I am with Jelo on this

    I hope you ride a Bicycle, never drive off road, never leave the tracks in front of you, never pick up wood in the bush for a fire, never use doom etc. as some people would believe you to be un-ethical.

    As for me,
    I still need to find a car manufacturer that divulges everything.
    I still need to find a tree huger that doesn't use rubber, leather and fuel.
    I still need to find a tree huger that doesn't eat commercially produced food

    What I do,
    I do drive off road a lot.
    I have been known to drive through bush in necessity, and helped create new trails.
    I have used old dead wood for camp fires
    I hunt which is deemed un-ethical

    We are all pretty much a yes and yes, if we off road, make fires, speed, hunt etc, It's just how we perceive it according to our ethics.
    Donít confuse unethical behaviour with unlawful acts

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    194

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    Quote Originally Posted by deanMorris View Post
    How ethical are you in your buying decisions?

    Would you support manufacturers that engage in lies and deceit?

    Would you support manufacturers that engage in animal-cruelty?

    I'm a bit mytified by where I find this i.e. the general 4x4 discussion section of the SA 4x4 commuinity forum.

    If the op is asking if we support 4x4 vehicle manufacturers that engage in lies and decit or if perhaps 4x4 vehicle manufacturer's research and development departments unethically use animals in their testing processes, then yes, the post is relevant here.

    These are important questions but it seems to me that there are other forums - ethics, philosophy for example where this post would be more appropriate.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Kloof
    Age
    63
    Posts
    378

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    deanMorris, please define "doing the right thing"? According to your standards, if you like. But what if my standards are substantially different to yours?

    Is the "right thing" based (a) on aspiring to some noble purpose, or (b) expedience, e.g. simply not driving against the oncoming traffic on (in this country) on the RHS?

    Why should I worry about global emissions - I'm fairly sure the world will last as is through my life time and why should I care what happens afterwards?

    If manufacturers use monkeys to test the impact of emissions on respiratory systems, what is it to me? If there is a God who cares, surely he will be asking the people who made that decision at the manufacturing company to provide the explanation, not me?

    Did many members of my age group on the Forum do the right thing by fighting (directly) in the border war? After all, that was assisting in the oppression of the black majority? Did I do the right thing by helping to maintain their logistical support back in South Africa?


    It seems as if you are simply trying to argue that you are the only person in step on the parade, and that you are very disappointed / shocked that the rest of us are not prepared to jump into your little box?

    2015 Suzuki Grand Vitara Summit M/T

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Richardsbay, KZN
    Age
    45
    Posts
    4,702

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    Ian, you are wasting your time.

    I noted in the first two pages the OP is driving an agenda of his own and I hoped to have a meaningful discussion but alas, his standard reply is of people who try and force their views on others, as the "troll" term is for those who don't agree and is considered a get out of jail card. Normally those who use this defence has been called out before and at times it works but it shows a lack of respect for the opponent, which doesn't fly my kite.

    We are two posts short also of being told we are going to die if we eat fast or processed foods, mark my words
    "Stare, pry, listen, eavesdrop. Die knowing something, you are not here long"
    Walker Evans, Photographer

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Bloemfontein
    Age
    43
    Posts
    3,193

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    Quote Originally Posted by zx14 View Post
    This reminds me of the old question:

    Have you stopped beating your Wife? Yes/No
    Exactly.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  9. #109
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Chirundu. Lower Zambezi National Park
    Age
    57
    Posts
    364

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    Does anybody know the definition of a vegan?
    The village idiot who can't hunt and catch fish.

    Dean don't take this to heart it's a joke. I have many vegan friends we agree to disagree.

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Ezulwini Eswatini
    Posts
    1,534

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    I hear what the OPs saying. Its a noble cause to try and make ethical purchase decisions.

    As consumers we should be able to leave it in the hands of government and regulators to ensure that what even comes to market has be vetted not to harm and if there is a transgression suitable penalty/sanction applied.

    2011 VW Touareg V.8 TDI
    2006 VW Touareg 3.0 TDi air suspension aka Pumba ( sold)
    2003 Pajero IO 2.0 aka Bosvark

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Bloemfontein
    Age
    43
    Posts
    3,193

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    OK, I bought a VW. After VW-gate. My opinion is that they were only the first big one caught in the act.

    I buy chicken, eggs and beacon at PnP. I doubt any of it is made in other than meat factories.

    And so I am certain I buys genetically modified maze and veggies.

    My bank and insurance companies probably does invest some of my money in "high risk" portfolios.

    I drive a Land Rover. Two of them. Who knows if the oil leaks were intentional or not?

    I owned a Mercedes. So did uncle Adolf Hitler.

    I eat meat, but is too sissy to cut the throat of an animal.

    My day job is to design HVAC. Not an environmentally friendly system even at best. Humans made it up to where we are without this being common for a mere 40 years of our existence.

    I also design electronics. Same story.


    The fact that you are sitting behind a computer and do not realize that you actively supports unethical purchases because of your lifestyle, makes me wonder.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Kloof
    Age
    47
    Posts
    19

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian.McM View Post
    deanMorris, please define "doing the right thing"? According to your standards, if you like. But what if my standards are substantially different to yours?

    Is the "right thing" based (a) on aspiring to some noble purpose, or (b) expedience, e.g. simply not driving against the oncoming traffic on (in this country) on the RHS?

    Why should I worry about global emissions - I'm fairly sure the world will last as is through my life time and why should I care what happens afterwards?

    If manufacturers use monkeys to test the impact of emissions on respiratory systems, what is it to me? If there is a God who cares, surely he will be asking the people who made that decision at the manufacturing company to provide the explanation, not me?

    Did many members of my age group on the Forum do the right thing by fighting (directly) in the border war? After all, that was assisting in the oppression of the black majority? Did I do the right thing by helping to maintain their logistical support back in South Africa?


    It seems as if you are simply trying to argue that you are the only person in step on the parade, and that you are very disappointed / shocked that the rest of us are not prepared to jump into your little box?
    I'll respond to each point in turn:

    Doing the right thing can largely be personal but there is a substantially large common component to it. However, in light of my original questions, you cannot have a personal idea of either deceit/lies and animal cruelty that is any different to that which is currently socially acceptable or socially defined. Relating very specifically to my questions, the right thing would be to avoid supporting a manufacturer that engaged in either of the actions detailed in the very opening of this post. Any further exploration of a definition of 'the right thing' adds nothing to the specific questions and only serves to divert the argument.

    Why should you worry about global emissions? You don't have to. But it makes for a better world if we care about our fellow man, including our children. That's why I care. And if climate change is real (If, and I'm not debating that point), then we (humans) have the problem, not the Earth.

    Monkeys used for testing. You don't have to care. You really don't. But is another animal suffering needed for something as arcane as testing exhaust emissions, when we have multiple scientific tests that are far more accurate? Even a dispassionate view of the process of testing using monkeys will throw up the question of why, when we have better alternatives available.

    What if there's no God and this world is up to us? There is no greater being going to save us? It truly is up to us? Then we have to make it a better place, not a worse place. Relying on an afterlife where all will be accounted for makes for exactly the kind of argument, that at its extreme, promotes mass death. We live in this world now.

    Fighting on the border war / support. In hindsight the border war was hypocritical. But the decisions you made then were (as all decisions are) made with imperfect information. Viewed in the unrelenting light of hindsight, all decisions can be seen to by hypocritical. The point is that we perform and act in a manner befitting our information. We do as we know. When we know better, we must do better, even if that makes us uncomfortable. So, would you fight the border war again, knowing what you know now? If yes, then you and I share very different ideas of morality. If no, then that change must be related to viewing the past with more complete information and making a change in your beliefs or ideas based on that relatively new information.

    Jumping into my box. No, I'm disappointed that there are more people willing to argue the minutiae rather than respond to the point. I respect the yes's, agree with the no's but I'm taken aback by the mental gymnastics attempted to defend a morally indefensible position, probably because it makes one uncomfortable. And deceit/lies and animal cruelty are morally indefensible; no matter how you try.

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Kloof
    Age
    47
    Posts
    19

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    OK, I bought a VW. After VW-gate. My opinion is that they were only the first big one caught in the act.

    I buy chicken, eggs and beacon at PnP. I doubt any of it is made in other than meat factories.

    And so I am certain I buys genetically modified maze and veggies.

    My bank and insurance companies probably does invest some of my money in "high risk" portfolios.

    I drive a Land Rover. Two of them. Who knows if the oil leaks were intentional or not?

    I owned a Mercedes. So did uncle Adolf Hitler.

    I eat meat, but is too sissy to cut the throat of an animal.

    My day job is to design HVAC. Not an environmentally friendly system even at best. Humans made it up to where we are without this being common for a mere 40 years of our existence.

    I also design electronics. Same story.


    The fact that you are sitting behind a computer and do not realize that you actively supports unethical purchases because of your lifestyle, makes me wonder.
    If I actively support unethical purchases because of my lifestyle and i know this to be true, I will make the necessary changes. But how is this in any way related to what you would do, which are the questions as posed.

    Having bought a VW post dieselgate you are a Yes, by your own admission. If you're happy being a Yes, then cool. If not, that too is up to you.
    Last edited by deanMorris; 2019/10/21 at 09:09 PM.

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Kloof
    Age
    63
    Posts
    378

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    And so endeth today's sermon from the pillar of morality, deanMorris.

    @Dean, I probably share most of your values. I may even live them far better than you do. In either event, there are undoubtedly people here whose humanity far outstrips mine. Or to put it in religious terms, will get to heaven long before I do (if I do).

    What I really try to avoid is to be condescending to other members on this Forum. I have had quite sharp run ins with some of them at times. I guess that at least 50% of the time I was the one who was out of line. I have never knowingly talked down to anyone.

    Your comments and the way you try to frame every definition to fit your views, come across as very condescending. No matter what you think of your arguments and how well you feel you have articulated them, if you put people's backs up they are not going to come out and play with you.

    It's your choice as to how you live your forum life - treat people as equals or accept being a wall flower.

    2015 Suzuki Grand Vitara Summit M/T

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Roodepoort
    Age
    28
    Posts
    91

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    Hi DeanMorris,

    If you’ve ever taken a medicine or had a medical procedure, you’ve benefited from animal testing and research.


    Research in cows helped create the world’s first vaccine, which in turn helped end smallpox. Studies with monkeys, dogs, and mice led to the polio vaccine. Drugs used to combat cancer, HIV/AIDS, Alzheimer’s, hepatitis, and malaria would not have been possible without research with primates. See our animal testing and research achievement chart below for more on how animals have contributed to life-saving and life-improving breakthroughs. Source

    Have you used any of these medications? Would you ever in the future use any of those medications?

    Also give this article a read.

    So I want to ask you, as a vegan, what do value more? Human life, or animal life?
    If humans were to stop using those medications, would those animals deaths be wasted?
    If you or your children ever, in the unfortunate event, get non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, would you use medication that was tested on animals, if it meant it would save you ore your children's lives?

    I highly suspect it would be a yes, which means you would answer yes to both your original questions, which in theory makes you a hypocrite
    Last edited by Michael9980; 2019/10/21 at 09:45 PM. Reason: Grammar
    Toyota Hilux 2.7i


  16. #116
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    The Windy City
    Age
    48
    Posts
    15,560

    Default Re: Ethics of purchasers choice

    Good place to close this down.

Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •