Importing 1997 Discovery from UK





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  1. #1
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    Default Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Dear 4x4 Community

    I have read your posts with interest and would be very grateful to hear from anyone who has experience of importing a car for safari.

    My wife and I and our kids aged, 10, 7 and 4 are visiting Kenya from the UK for January and February... but we cannot afford to hire a vehicle for the 8 weeks.

    One option is to ship our 1997 Land Rover Discovery to Mombasa (About 1000 GBP Roll on Roll off), get a Foreign Vehicle Permit, use it for tours in Kenya, then sell it in Tanzania (cheaply) because it does not have the same age restriction on car imports.

    Q: Is that crazy?
    Q: Is there another way I could sell the car (cheaply)?
    Q: Is there another way we can get a vehicle without paying the usual rental?

    Thanks.

    Adrian

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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Adrian

    Welcome to the forum, and karibuni Kenya.

    I presume you are intending on temporarily importing the vehicle into Kenya. You will not be able to permanently import the vehicle into Kenya as it is more than eight years old - also you will not have a Kenya Revenue Authority PIN number. I can assure you that permanently importing a vehicle into Kenya costs a LOT in taxes and import duties (I have done this twice).

    First of all, it is not a crazy idea, but be prepared for dealing with the bureaucracy involved with time and patience. You will need a good clearing agent in Mombasa, and I would check with your UK shipping agent as I am pretty sure that you will need a Carnet de Passage for the vehicle when shipping into Mombasa.

    It is not possible to sell a foreign registered vehicle in either Kenya or Tanzania without first importing that vehicle into the country in question. I do not know for sure, but I would hazard a guess that Tanzania has a similar age restriction on vehicles as Kenya (but can you tell me where you read that Tanzania does not have the same age restriction). Importing a vehicle into a country generally involves having a PIN number with the tax authority as that is how the import duties etc are paid. The tax authority PIN numbers are only issued to citizens, people working in the country on a work permit, or people who have permanent residency. The tax and import duties will often be more than the cost of shipping the vehicle back to the UK.

    There really isn’t any other way than shipping the vehicle in and out of East Africa - or renting a vehicle.

    Good luck!

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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    The only way is to get it into Africa using the Temporary Import Permit system and then sell it privately to the first cash buyer when you're ready to leave, however I reckon you'd not get much on the black market in such a case. So be prepared to dump it and fly out.
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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    The only way is to get it into Africa using the Temporary Import Permit system and then sell it privately to the first cash buyer when you're ready to leave, however I reckon you'd not get much on the black market in such a case. So be prepared to dump it and fly out.
    This is exactly what NOT to do...

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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Wazungu Wawili View Post
    This is exactly what NOT to do...
    no other options I'm afraid, apart from staying on Mud Island
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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    I am looking at the ferry cost £ 1000 (ZAR 180 000) plus all the duties and red tapes with a vehicle in African countries....might end up more than ZAR 200 000

    Fly to South Africa...Buy a very clean Disco 1 1997 -2000 (300 TDI or V8 for less than ZAR 50 000) or a good TD 5 and there is enough left to equip it as a over lander and travel C to C (Cape to Cairo) holiday in Zambia and carry on....
    Or travel to Zambia come back and sell it in South Africa
    Or as Jelo said Dump it in Alexandria....or Cairo


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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Quote Originally Posted by LRTDV6 View Post
    I am looking at the ferry cost £ 1000 (ZAR 180 000) plus all the duties and red tapes with a vehicle in African countries....might end up more than ZAR 200 000

    Fly to South Africa...Buy a very clean Disco 1 1997 -2000 (300 TDI or V8 for less than ZAR 50 000) or a good TD 5 and there is enough left to equip it as a over lander and travel C to C (Cape to Cairo) holiday in Zambia and carry on....
    Or travel to Zambia come back and sell it in South Africa
    Or as Jelo said Dump it in Alexandria....or Cairo

    Yep, you can pick up a very nice D2 V8 for around R60k. A decent D1 V8 for half that. That leaves a LOT of money for fuel.

    Park it in Cairo and get on the plane. Hell, park it ANYWHERE and get on the plane.
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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Thank you so much, Wazungu and Jelo for your replies.

    Yes, I had intended to obtain a temporary licence. The government information says that I can use either a C32 form or a Carnet de Passage to get my Foreign Vehicle Permit:

    http://www.ntsa.go.ke/docs/Public%20Notice_%20Temporary%20Importation%20of%20 Road%20Vehicles%20and%20Foreign%20Vehicle%20Permit s_colour.pdf

    I have a blank C32 form which I can complete, but it needs signing by a Customs Officer. I will see if I can get it signed somehow in London. I can then buy my COMESA insurance in advance and apply for my Foreign Vehicle Permit Online, so I would have the permit in advance.

    However, I have been advised that I will in fact need a Carnet at Mombasa. I want to avoid getting a Carnet because this would greatly complicate my selling the car. Would not having a Carnet be a problem, if I manage to get my Foreign Vehicle Permit in advance?

    Yes, Tanzania does allow older cars to be imported permanently, but you pay more duty. Thanks for the advice on a Tanzanian tax PIN - I will have to see if I could get one. Perhaps I could use an agent's PIN.

    Sorry for so many bureaucratic questions.

    By the way, the simplest way I can think of to get a car in Kenya is to offer my London car as a temporary swap for a Kenyan car. No shipping, no tax, no Carnet, etc, etc, etc. Anyone interested?!

    Adrian

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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    This thread is in danger of being derailed by those with little or no experience of East African bureaucracy.

    Egypt, like many countries, requires a Carnet de Passage - which is the vehicle’s “passport” and is designed to facilitate temporary import into a country. And to stop illegal dumping of old vehicles.

    A bond is held by the Carnet-issuing authority to a certain value of the vehicle. When we drove through Egypt in 2013, the bond for our British-issued Carnet was eight times the value of the vehicle because we were going through Egypt. If the Carnet is not discharged - and it is discovered that a vehicle has been “dumped” in a country, then the person to whom the Carnet is registered is then liable for a considerable amount of money.

    There is no way any serious person would countenance dumping a vehicle in a foreign country. It is illegal and unethical.

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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Quote Originally Posted by LRTDV6 View Post
    I am looking at the ferry cost £ 1000 (ZAR 180 000) plus all the duties and red tapes with a vehicle in African countries....might end up more than ZAR 200 000

    Fly to South Africa...Buy a very clean Disco 1 1997 -2000 (300 TDI or V8 for less than ZAR 50 000) or a good TD 5 and there is enough left to equip it as a over lander and travel C to C (Cape to Cairo) holiday in Zambia and carry on....
    Or travel to Zambia come back and sell it in South Africa
    Or as Jelo said Dump it in Alexandria....or Cairo

    Sjoe, has the rand collapsed ? 1000 pounds should equal R 19 000 ish

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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Reading through the replies it seems some fingers are more active than brains 😀

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  14. #12
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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianGo View Post
    Thank you so much, Wazungu and Jelo for your replies.

    Yes, I had intended to obtain a temporary licence. The government information says that I can use either a C32 form or a Carnet de Passage to get my Foreign Vehicle Permit:

    http://www.ntsa.go.ke/docs/Public%20Notice_%20Temporary%20Importation%20of%20 Road%20Vehicles%20and%20Foreign%20Vehicle%20Permit s_colour.pdf

    I have a blank C32 form which I can complete, but it needs signing by a Customs Officer. I will see if I can get it signed somehow in London. I can then buy my COMESA insurance in advance and apply for my Foreign Vehicle Permit Online, so I would have the permit in advance.

    However, I have been advised that I will in fact need a Carnet at Mombasa. I want to avoid getting a Carnet because this would greatly complicate my selling the car. Would not having a Carnet be a problem, if I manage to get my Foreign Vehicle Permit in advance?

    Yes, Tanzania does allow older cars to be imported permanently, but you pay more duty. Thanks for the advice on a Tanzanian tax PIN - I will have to see if I could get one. Perhaps I could use an agent's PIN.

    Sorry for so many bureaucratic questions.

    By the way, the simplest way I can think of to get a car in Kenya is to offer my London car as a temporary swap for a Kenyan car. No shipping, no tax, no Carnet, etc, etc, etc. Anyone interested?!

    Adrian
    Adrian

    The C32 form is a Kenyan form and would need to be signed by a Kenyan customs officer at the port of entry. It would not be able to be signed in London.

    If a Carnet is needed for clearing customs at the port of Mombasa, then it would be impossible to do so without one.

    Back to the drawing board, I’m afraid...

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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Hmmn.

    How about this idea:

    I could save the shipping costs by buying in Uganda, where cars seem much cheaper, then driving to Kenya, use the car with a temporary Foreign Vehicle Permit (using the C32 route rather than a carnet), then drive back to Uganda two months later and sell it.

    All legitimate (but with the usual risks of buying and selling a car of course). One issue is that to get a C32, I need to have the foreign Motor Vehicle Registration Book in my name. Not sure how long it could take to get the form back in my name after buying the car.

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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianGo View Post
    Hmmn.

    How about this idea:

    I could save the shipping costs by buying in Uganda, where cars seem much cheaper, then driving to Kenya, use the car with a temporary Foreign Vehicle Permit (using the C32 route rather than a carnet), then drive back to Uganda two months later and sell it.

    All legitimate (but with the usual risks of buying and selling a car of course). One issue is that to get a C32, I need to have the foreign Motor Vehicle Registration Book in my name. Not sure how long it could take to get the form back in my name after buying the car.
    The fundamental questions are:

    • Is it possible to register a vehicle in your own name in any African country without being a resident?
    • How many weeks (or months) are you willing to give over to this - probably impossible - and, certainly, patience and costly bureaucratic procedure?


    Unless you have very good contacts in Kenya, Uganda and/or Tanzania, have experience of doing such a complicated and time-consuming bureaucratic procedure, and have the time to spend sitting around and waiting, then, if I were you, I would ship your vehicle in and out (or hire a vehicle). It will end up being infinitely cheaper (and infinitely less stressful) and then you might be able to see and enjoy all that East Africa has to offer rather than sitting around and waiting at government offices, etc. Having said all this, we need to understand that a similar process into the UK is as difficult, time-consuming and costly.

    If you are taking a two month sabbatical with your children then, I am sure, they want to get on the road (as will you).

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  18. #15
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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    To give you some background, I am Kenya born and bred. Furthermore, after many years of living in Kenya, we, of course, have a Kenya Revenue Authority PIN number. We always do everything totally above board. We know Kenya, speak Swahili and have good contacts.

    We drove our UK-registered Land Rover from our home in the UK all the way to Cape Town - and then back to my family home in Kenya. We did this between August 2013 and December 2014. We also go to Kenya at least once a year to visit my family (and to go on safari).

    At at the end of our 35,000 mile trip, we imported our Land Rover into Kenya. It took us - with all the relevant paperwork, KRA authority, agents, and a Kenyan bank account (not to mention a shed-load of import duties, taxes, Kenyan Bureau of Standards vehicle checks etc etc) - three months to get all the relevant paperwork in our own name.

    You would not have tax authority clearance in any of the East African countries and would, therefore, not be able to officially register a vehicle in your own name. It sounds a BIG JOB to me...

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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    just hire the vehicle in Africa, the idea of sending a 1997 discovery halfway around the world to save on car hire fees is nuts, the paperwork and time taken to legitimise it is horrendous - give your itinerary to the group and you will probably find that a normal minibus or mpv is more than enough or someone will do a private rental for a fee and you dont need a rigged out disco in any case
    or else you can buy a vehicle on arrival and then sell it or just pay a rental "fee"

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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Wazungu Wawili View Post
    This thread is in danger of being derailed by those with little or no experience of East African bureaucracy.

    If the Carnet is not discharged - and it is discovered that a vehicle has been “dumped” in a country, then the person to whom the Carnet is registered is then liable for a considerable amount of money.
    Adrian, these two points above.

    Wazungu is a respected and experienced authority on these types of matters.

    African bureaucracy can be trying, illogical and downright frustrating, regardless if you have followed the requirements to the T.

    I would advise renting from a reputable local company. If something goes wrong with the vehicle you have the assurance of being able to get a assistance/replacement and continuing with your holiday. It will also be equiped with everything you will need.

    If, as you have mentioned, the filthy lucre is an inhibitor currently, perhaps a delay in the proposed dates for an additional year or trimming down the duration of your trip could be options to assist in funding a rental.
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  22. #18
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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Quote Originally Posted by 3bar View Post
    just hire the vehicle in Africa, the idea of sending a 1997 discovery halfway around the world to save on car hire fees is nuts, the paperwork and time taken to legitimise it is horrendous - give your itinerary to the group and you will probably find that a normal minibus or mpv is more than enough or someone will do a private rental for a fee and you dont need a rigged out disco in any case
    or else you can buy a vehicle on arrival and then sell it or just pay a rental "fee"
    Thanks, all for the very helpful comments.

    It makes sense to buy locally, to avoid bureaucracy, delay and cost.
    As 3Bar says, our options are to:
    1. buy a vehicle in Kenya and sell it after our tour (8 weeks)
    I am not sure what is meant by pay a rental "fee" - perhaps offer a rental fee for a car that is for sale?
    2. arrange a private rental.

    Anyway, I get the idea and that makes sense. Looking at websites, it seems older Landcruisers, e.g. 1998 in Nairobi start from about 750,000Ksh.

    So weighing up the pros and cons of each:

    Buy and sell:
    Pros: Would lose no value, lots to choose from.
    Cons: Risk of buying a car that already has major problems; risk of major breakdown that could be costly to fix, cause delays and leave us stranded in a remote place.

    Private rental:
    Pros: Would give some assurance against breakdown
    Cons: Would cost more; Might be hard to find someone who would rent us their loved old 4x4 for our budget (about 1600 USD or 8 weeks x 200 USD).

    I guess it makes sense to pursue both options and see what comes up. All suggestions very welcome.
    Ideally I would get this set up before our arrival, so we can begin without delay.

    I will share our draft itinerary in a different thread, but just to say now, we will do the usual tour of national parks, but slower than most.

    Adrian

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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Adrian

    I am trying very hard not to be a dampener on your plans, but I want you to be aware of the many, many pitfalls.

    Transfer of ownership of a vehicle is done through the National Transport and Safety Authority. It is done online. In order to register for NTSA TIMS, you need to have a government e-citizen number; to register on the e-citizen portal, you need a Kenya Revenue Authority PIN number; to obtain a Kenya Revenue Authority PIN number, you need to be a Kenyan citizen, or have residency in Kenya and be registered as an alien, or have a work permit and be registered as an alien.

    Furthermore, to obtain vehicle insurance, you need the vehicle logbook (registration papers) in your name.

    There are very many unscrupulous vehicle dealers in Kenya although there are also good reliable dealers. The reliable dealers would want to transfer the ownership legally as detailed above. I really do not think that you would be able to sell a vehicle back to the same dealer for the same price as you “bought” it. They would know they have you over a barrel and you would lose money hand over fist.

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    Default Re: Importing 1997 Discovery from UK

    Wazungu, that's very thorough and very helpful.

    Unfortunately, I have no plans to become a Kenyan resident (at least not yet), so I guess that's another dead end.

    I will continue the point about private rental in a new thread.

    Many thanks.

    Adrian

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