Discovery 2: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build - Page 9





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  1. #161
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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnoK View Post
    Leaner should run hotter.
    Diesel`s run opposite up long hills if you over fuel as in running rich you get high EGT or Labour the engine low rpm to much fuel EGT go up very quick
    1995 300TDi Defender with VGT Turbo
    2002 Defender with LS1 MS3 ECU, 4L80e, LT230 1.222, Lockers and HD CW&P, 35" with 4" Lift

  2. #162
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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    This landy must get sorted, I would like to see videos of it performing offroad with all the ATBs in place

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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by douglash View Post
    Sounds good. Is that equivalent power also?
    Equivalent conditions meaning same speed/load/wind on the same road. Example below.
    My previous map was "full speed ahead and damn the EGT" whereas Biltong is trying to create a map which someone with no EGT gauge or mechanical sympathy can run safely. So it's never going to be as quick as the previous map.
    I've asked him for a less conservative map where AFR is still respected but EGT is allowed to go a bit higher. Obviously using this map will place the onus on the driver to look after things a bit better. I think the end result could be more power within the constraints of the EGT alarm which is really what makes sense. How are you going to use an extra 20kw if you need to be over 800 degrees EGT to get it?

    Obviously overfuelling increases EGT as well as water temperature. One of my test runs is a long hill climb at 120km/h after a sustained highway cruise of over 20km, so everything is up to temperature and stable.
    With the old map I had EGT at 720 and water temperature rose from 93/94 degrees to 101. As the starting temperature is the thermostat control point there may be more heat input than apparent here.
    New map had EGT at 589 and water temperature rose from 97 to 98. The higher starting water temp was because it was 33 degrees ambient that day.
    Last edited by Hagu13; 2020/01/23 at 11:06 AM.
    Rob
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  4. #164
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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakkals. View Post
    This landy must get sorted, I would like to see videos of it performing offroad with all the ATBs in place
    We went camping at Killarney over December with some family and to also play a bit with the D2 and when the TC is not working, the ATBs can be used with some left foot braking, but it's not as effective as when the TC kicks it in.

    As for the TC and the ATBs together.. As I stopped after a bit of a drive with the 3 amigos on and therefore no TC, I stopped and switched off. Then realised the windows were open at the back, so switched ignition on to close them. When I did so, the 3 amigos went to go get more tequila and that's when I thought, let's go quick... before they return and get us all drunk.

    Needless to say, I tackled what I thought was one of the harder climbs there with a fair incline and just as much loose rocks, etc. Honestly didn't think I would make it up, but man oh man, the way the TC kicked in the ATBs as soon as it lost a bit of traction, it was just superb. Sure, they are not air lockers so there is still a bit of spin but it made it up with no issue.

    I'm just as anxious to get the 3 amigos gone for good and then to go play some more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagu13 View Post
    Equivalent conditions meaning same speed/load/wind on the same road. Example below.
    My previous map was "full speed ahead and damn the EGT" whereas Biltong is trying to create a map which someone with no EGT gauge or mechanical sympathy can run safely. So it's never going to be as quick as the previous map.
    I've asked him for a less conservative map where AFR is still respected but EGT is allowed to go a bit higher. Obviously using this map will place the onus on the driver to look after things a bit better. I think the end result could be more power within the constraints of the EGT alarm which is really what makes sense. How are you going to use an extra 20kw if you need to be over 800 degrees EGT to get it?

    Obviously overfuelling increases EGT as well as water temperature. One of my test runs is a long hill climb at 120km/h after a sustained highway cruise of over 20km, so everything is up to temperature and stable.
    With the old map I had EGT at 720 and water temperature rose from 93/94 degrees to 101. As the starting temperature is the thermostat control point there may be more heat input than apparent here.
    New map had EGT at 589 and water temperature rose from 97 to 98. The higher starting water temp was because it was 33 degrees ambient that day.
    Yeah, naturally you would need more fuel for more power. But in reality, I'm happy to drop the 20kw if the EGTs are in line and can maintain the same 120km/h uphill.

    This map of Biltongs sounds good... i wouldn't mind giving it a go.

    D2 went in today to have the HD CW&Ps fitted. I'd like to see the difference with a change to the ratio of 3.75 and then go from there.

    One thing I can say, I'm kinda glad that not all the mods went in the same time but also not to far apart. It's interesting to note how each mod changes the behaviour and the ride.
    2010 LR Discovery 4 V8 HSE - Lifted with IIDtool, Powered by Petrol and Running on Cooper AT3 LT (new spec) 265/65/18s [Imvubu]
    2004 LR Discovery 2 Td5 GS - mods in thread en route. (Ingwe)


  5. #165
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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Who is setting up your [email protected]
    1995 300TDi Defender with VGT Turbo
    2002 Defender with LS1 MS3 ECU, 4L80e, LT230 1.222, Lockers and HD CW&P, 35" with 4" Lift

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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by clivemd View Post
    Who is setting up your [email protected]
    Warren @ A1
    2010 LR Discovery 4 V8 HSE - Lifted with IIDtool, Powered by Petrol and Running on Cooper AT3 LT (new spec) 265/65/18s [Imvubu]
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  7. #167
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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Oaks, just remember: Less diesel = less power = less performance = lower stress on motor.

    If you come with a pre-set mental limit of not wanting to see lower than 120 km/h on hills, then you have the wrong approach.

    It is all about what the motor can safely deliver and how that can be extracted from the map in a predictable way.
    Last edited by biltong; 2020/01/23 at 06:49 PM.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  8. #168
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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    Oaks, just remember: Less diesel = less power = less performance = lower stress on motor.

    If you come with a pre-set mental limit of not wanting to see lower than 120 km/h on hills, then you have the wrong approach.

    It is all about what the motor can safely deliver and how that can be extracted from the map in a predictable way.
    So you're saying that a Td5 shouldn't be able to do 120km/h uphill?
    2010 LR Discovery 4 V8 HSE - Lifted with IIDtool, Powered by Petrol and Running on Cooper AT3 LT (new spec) 265/65/18s [Imvubu]
    2004 LR Discovery 2 Td5 GS - mods in thread en route. (Ingwe)


  9. #169
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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by douglash View Post
    So you're saying that a Td5 shouldn't be able to do 120km/h uphill?
    Depends on the hill.
    But on his map, in my van, on that particular hill I can do 120km/h with 130 degrees less EGT than my previous map. At the moment I can't go faster with either map. One because of crazy EGT, one because it's flat out.

    I had an almost 2 hour Skype chat with Biltong yesterday where he did lots of screen sharing and explaining. Every aftermarket map we have looked at does one thing. Raises the fuel map at high load and high RPM above the stock fuel maps. This causes overfueling which leads to EGT and coolant temperature running away to dangerous values as well as poor fuel economy in that region.

    His approach was totally different. He's kept the fuel maps 100% factory and worked only on the other maps (smoke/gearbox torque etc) to give good driveability and smoother shifting and better control of AFR therefore EGT and economy. In this he has succeeded hugely. He hasn't chased power at all. So the top speed should be similar to stock and therefore slower than my previous map.
    That said, there's headroom to increase power without exceeding safe EGT limits. I have an experiment to carry out, he's going back to his calculator.
    Rob
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  10. #170
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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagu13 View Post
    I can do 120km/h with 130 degrees less EGT than my previous map. At the moment I can't go faster with either map. One because of crazy EGT, one because it's flat out.
    I see that you are focused on the fuel map and EGT but what about boost? did you monitor that too? ...cos it's possible that your problem is with low boost caused by a physical element rather than the fuel map and the effect of that is high EGT and low power uphill, no fuel map would cure that... if you have bigger than standard dimension tyres too that's the answer
    2000 Discovery Td5 ES manual, tuned

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    VDM UCANDAS, oscilloscope


    i DON'T ANSWER TO TECHNICAL QUESTIONS IN PM'S

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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagu13 View Post
    Depends on the hill.
    But on his map, in my van, on that particular hill I can do 120km/h with 130 degrees less EGT than my previous map. At the moment I can't go faster with either map. One because of crazy EGT, one because it's flat out.

    I had an almost 2 hour Skype chat with Biltong yesterday where he did lots of screen sharing and explaining. Every aftermarket map we have looked at does one thing. Raises the fuel map at high load and high RPM above the stock fuel maps. This causes overfueling which leads to EGT and coolant temperature running away to dangerous values as well as poor fuel economy in that region.

    His approach was totally different. He's kept the fuel maps 100% factory and worked only on the other maps (smoke/gearbox torque etc) to give good driveability and smoother shifting and better control of AFR therefore EGT and economy. In this he has succeeded hugely. He hasn't chased power at all. So the top speed should be similar to stock and therefore slower than my previous map.
    That said, there's headroom to increase power without exceeding safe EGT limits. I have an experiment to carry out, he's going back to his calculator.
    This is sounding very good.

    Quote Originally Posted by sierrafery View Post
    I see that you are focused on the fuel map and EGT but what about boost? did you monitor that too? ...cos it's possible that your problem is with low boost caused by a physical element rather than the fuel map and the effect of that is high EGT and low power uphill, no fuel map would cure that... if you have bigger than standard dimension tyres too that's the answer
    Boost is 1.35(ish) at max boost.

    And yes, tyres are slightly larger , but as so they are for Rob also.
    Last edited by douglash; 2020/01/24 at 10:38 AM.
    2010 LR Discovery 4 V8 HSE - Lifted with IIDtool, Powered by Petrol and Running on Cooper AT3 LT (new spec) 265/65/18s [Imvubu]
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  12. #172
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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    My tyres are not oversized on this truck. You're thinking of my previous V8 that I put pics on this thread. My TD5 has a 2" lift and steel bumper, winch and snorkel but runs on 245/75/16. Not stock size but stock diameter.

    I have not looked at boost yet. I wanted to do an apples and apples comparison of old and new maps before bringing in another variable but now it's time. Fitting a gauge this afternoon. My modulator is bypassed and I have no idea of wastegate setting. Overboost protection is defeated so I can test beyond that setpoint.

    Depending on the map used I either have high power and high EGT, or low power and low EGT. The plan is to use the low map and try to extend it upwards
    Last edited by Hagu13; 2020/01/24 at 11:16 AM.
    Rob
    V8 Defender 90 pickup. Lexus, Spitronics, 33" KL71, beadlocks, +2" Terrafirma, ATB's, 3.75 CW&P, 1.21 TC.
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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagu13 View Post
    My tyres are not oversized on this truck. You're thinking of my previous V8 that I put pics on this thread. My TD5 has a 2" lift and steel bumper, winch and snorkel but runs on 245/75/16. Not stock size but stock diameter.

    I have not looked at boost yet. I wanted to do an apples and apples comparison of old and new maps before bringing in another variable but now it's time. Fitting a gauge this afternoon. My modulator is bypassed and I have no idea of wastegate setting. Overboost protection is defeated so I can test beyond that setpoint.

    Depending on the map used I either have high power and high EGT, or low power and low EGT. The plan is to use the low map and try to extend it upwards
    Ah, my bad. Got it wrong.

    Let us know the results. Sent Biltong a message also - shot.
    2010 LR Discovery 4 V8 HSE - Lifted with IIDtool, Powered by Petrol and Running on Cooper AT3 LT (new spec) 265/65/18s [Imvubu]
    2004 LR Discovery 2 Td5 GS - mods in thread en route. (Ingwe)


  14. #174
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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagu13 View Post
    My tyres are not oversized on this truck. You're thinking of my previous V8 that I put pics on this thread. My TD5 has a 2" lift and steel bumper, winch and snorkel but runs on 245/75/16. Not stock size but stock diameter.

    I have not looked at boost yet. I wanted to do an apples and apples comparison of old and new maps before bringing in another variable but now it's time. Fitting a gauge this afternoon. My modulator is bypassed and I have no idea of wastegate setting. Overboost protection is defeated so I can test beyond that setpoint.

    Depending on the map used I either have high power and high EGT, or low power and low EGT. The plan is to use the low map and try to extend it upwards
    245/75/16 has 5.24% more in circumference than to the stock 235/70/16. I've got up to 100*C higher EGT with 255/70/16 tyres compared to the stock 255/65/16 with unloaded vehicle and even 250+ while towing so the difference in the VSS is mixing up bad the management especially on autos... you should reinstate the wastegate modulator or at least take some physical action on the wastegate rod as o raise the boost as much as possible then you'll see that the higher the boost goes the lower the EGT will be... the fact that the overboost limit is raised doesnt mean too much as long as he MAP sensor is standard cos it can't read above 250KPa so if you exceed that the ECU will not know and the combustion will suffer. Count the threads on the wastegate rod and turn the adjuster as to let 9 threads toward the valve... raising the boost with the wastegate will let the turbo spin at the same speed while more boost will reach the manifold rather than go out through the wastegate hence the EGT drops.
    2000 Discovery Td5 ES manual, tuned

    Hawkeye v.6, Nanocom EVO,
    VDM UCANDAS, oscilloscope


    i DON'T ANSWER TO TECHNICAL QUESTIONS IN PM'S

    ALL MY ADVICES ARE BASED ON MY OWN EXPERIENCE AND MY WAY OF UNDERSTANDING THE DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION OF SYSTEMS... I'M NOT A LAND ROVER SPECIALIST JUST AN ADDICTED ENTHUSIAST

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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by sierrafery View Post
    I see that you are focused on the fuel map and EGT but what about boost? did you monitor that too? ...cos it's possible that your problem is with low boost caused by a physical element rather than the fuel map and the effect of that is high EGT and low power uphill, no fuel map would cure that... if you have bigger than standard dimension tyres too that's the answer
    It could be boost, however anything that delivers a MAF of more than what the maximum the maps allows for, will not add more fuel. It will only lower EGT.

    The danger of the approach to for example boost 1.35 Bar gauge regardless of altitude, is that you will quickly run into trouble at higher altitudes as the MAF will inevitably decrease to the maximum tabled values, but fuel will stay the same.

    That is then why my map does the MAP boost control where I will only boost 1.2 Bar at sea level AND keep the EGT in tackt at that pressure, so that the turbo can spin up to 1.4 Bar at high altitudes and one will still have about the same EGT as the MAF will be the same. (plus of course the lower efficiency of the intercooler at altitude.)

    It is great however to have a tester like Rob on board, as he his has excellent observational awareness and the technical abilities to relay a clear message of his experience - and he knows where to stop if things goes out of bounds.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  16. #176
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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by sierrafery View Post
    . raising the boost with the wastegate will let the turbo spin at the same speed while more boost will reach the manifold rather than go out through the wastegate hence the EGT drops.
    No sir. A waste gate works on the exhaust gas side of the turbo. And it definitely controls the speed on the compressor wheel.

    Raising boost with a waste gate WILL increase the speed.

    Boost is NOT lost through the waste gate. It is lowered by "wasting" exhaust gas going through the turbine side in order to slow down the compressor wheel.
    Last edited by biltong; 2020/01/25 at 05:41 AM.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    No sir. A waste gate works on the exhaust gas side of the turbo. And it definitely controls the speed on the compressor wheel.

    Raising boost with a waste gate WILL increase the speed.

    Boost is NOT lost through the waste gate. It is lowered by "wasting" exhaust gas going through the turbine side in order to slow down the compressor wheel.
    I stand correceted. I had a mental hickup as i thought to the engine rpm not turbine. The gist was that the consumpion will not grow, it will eventually drop
    2000 Discovery Td5 ES manual, tuned

    Hawkeye v.6, Nanocom EVO,
    VDM UCANDAS, oscilloscope


    i DON'T ANSWER TO TECHNICAL QUESTIONS IN PM'S

    ALL MY ADVICES ARE BASED ON MY OWN EXPERIENCE AND MY WAY OF UNDERSTANDING THE DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION OF SYSTEMS... I'M NOT A LAND ROVER SPECIALIST JUST AN ADDICTED ENTHUSIAST

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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by sierrafery View Post
    I stand correceted. I had a mental hickup as i thought to the engine rpm not turbine. The gist was that the consumpion will not grow, it will eventually drop
    No it will not.

    X kW requires Y amount fuel divided by the efficiency at that duty point. Extra boost does not make power without extra fuel.

    Consumption can only drop if you make the same power at a more efficient duty point of the motor - which of course a good map can do.
    Last edited by biltong; 2020/01/25 at 10:47 AM.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Here we go again... no doubt that a good fuel map is efficient but forget one minute about electronics cos my intervention was only about physical boost. If you dont believe what's happening in reality wind up a bit the wastegate on your's then drive it so for a while untill you can figure out if it had higher consumption or not... the consumption will not be higher whatsoever, only the EGT will drop and it will have better throttle response, that's a fact verified by me with live drive tests for many months with various wastegate settings. Why would be the consumption higher while at the same driver demand less exhaust gas is wasted ?
    Last edited by sierrafery; 2020/01/25 at 11:02 AM.
    2000 Discovery Td5 ES manual, tuned

    Hawkeye v.6, Nanocom EVO,
    VDM UCANDAS, oscilloscope


    i DON'T ANSWER TO TECHNICAL QUESTIONS IN PM'S

    ALL MY ADVICES ARE BASED ON MY OWN EXPERIENCE AND MY WAY OF UNDERSTANDING THE DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION OF SYSTEMS... I'M NOT A LAND ROVER SPECIALIST JUST AN ADDICTED ENTHUSIAST

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    Default Re: Ultimate Disco2 Td5 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by sierrafery View Post
    Here we go again... no doubt that a good fuel map is efficient but forget one minute about electronics cos my intervention was only about physical boost. If you dont believe what's happening in reality wind up a bit the wastegate on your's then drive it so for a while untill you can figure out if it had higher consumption or not... the consumption will not be higher whatsoever, only the EGT will drop and it will have better throttle response, that's a fact verified by me with live drive tests for many months with various wastegate settings. Why would be the consumption higher while at the same driver demand less exhaust gas is wasted ?
    You cannot in any way isolate the electionics from the mechanics.

    They are joint at the hip.

    So, a lot of what you experience, is very much because of the ecu that alters fuel delivery because of the altered MAF as a result of the waste gate setting.

    I spend a lot of time in my vehicle, so I am very much in touch with reality thank you.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

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