Just don't get some people... - Page 2





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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    Ok, please don't crucify me here.

    I know nothing about overlanding.
    I have thought about it, but would realistically only look at it on a later stage in life.

    Now to my point. As I know nothing about overlanding, let's say I decide to seriously get into it. I get a capable vehicle, do research to kit it out, do research on where to visit, start planning my trip, and wait in anticipation to go on my first overlanding experience.

    What is missing in the above statement? The do's and don'ts of that area. Just looking at the picture posted with the tracks where the oke did donuts or whatever, a complete novice like myself can't really see what the problem is with it. It's just sand right? What's the big deal?

    Now, I myself for lack of understanding the environmental impact don't see the big problem. (Excluding obvious damage where trash is left of someone drives over any living thing for no reason).

    But, I can say the same to all of the people visiting the coast on their holidays. I understand the environment, and the inner workings, and you there with your children, turning all the rocks over, stepping on corals, poking at stuff which should be left alone, picking up shells, picking up living creatures out of the water, do you understand the damage you have done? If you turn over that rock, you destroy that whole ecosystem on that rock. Did you now that some creatures should not be exposed to air. Did you know that there is very tiny living creatures on that rock? Did that person do it to willfully destroy the environment? No, they didn't know or understand.

    In essence, I think a lot times people do things not to cause harm, but due to lack of understanding.
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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    Quote Originally Posted by lizardalpha View Post
    In essence, I think a lot times people do things not to cause harm, but due to lack of understanding.
    In some cases yes, in most cases people just don't give a damn. If you read SA4x4 Magazine you'll see that every issue has 'The Overlander's Code' explaining the do's and don'ts of the bush succinctly. But approach a massive, rowdy crowd on a KZN beach in December and berate them for littering; do you think you'll walk away in one piece? Approach the boks in his modded 4x4 driving where him and his buddies shouldn't be and you can bet your life he/they'll be arrogant and dismissive, will probably reek of booze too. Pursue the matter further and it will probably end in a fist fight. Been there, done that, the irony is that I then had legal action against me for assault even though I didn't start it (nothing came of it)... The first golden rule is MAKE NO NEW TRACKS. You must see the region south of Kosi Bay (Black Rock, Dog Point); an entire ecosystem of dune grassland/forest mosaic destroyed by egomaniacs blasting around in/on their off road toys. Obviously they know they shouldn't do it, they just don't care. The problem starts at home, during upbringing...
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  5. #23
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    Quote Originally Posted by lizardalpha View Post
    In essence, I think a lot times people do things not to cause harm, but due to lack of understanding.
    I do agree to an extent because I believe that this is the exception rather than the rule. People generally just could not care less because they will probably never go there again and will not get caught doing these things.

    My argument is that if one is clever enough to land a job or run a business which pays enough to buy a 4x4 and nice to haves, then using it for overland tours (Which are relatively expensive) then they should have a bit of common sense, and if not at the very least go do some research on places to visit to know what the do's and dont's are.

    Also, the totally ignorant ones are the ones who fly to Mauritius and go stay in a luxury hotel for 5 days rather than pitching a tent on a dusty pad and having to go for a bos### every morning for 2 weeks...

    It reminds me of the old days when we could still drive on the beaches. There would always be some ijit who would see how far his 4x4 could go up the dune vegetation. THIS is what played a huge part in killing it for the rest of us.

    The rules are clear at Kubu island for example. Signs are posted, yet there is a cake doing a doughnut (See what I did there?) every day.
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  7. #24
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    Its a very complex issue, a layer cake if you will, made even more complex by the lack of brevity within many posts on threads such as this one, for numerous reasons, the nature of the platform being one and which, as an aside, can lead to quite a bit of misunderstanding and heated debate. (the Toyota Ad thread had 2 issues; 1. The negative impact on the environment, and; 2. The ''influential'' power of the advert itself. Both of these became jumbled in the sequential nature of the platform)

    This being said, this issue, like the environment it serves to preserve, requires a balance in approach. As I mentioned previously, over-landing was the preserve of the adventurous, well heeled and, sometimes, the eccentric. Clearly, modern technology (or the belief in it) and the ability, financial and otherwise, has led to an increase in accessibility. The preserve of the over-lander has become, in many ways, less ''exclusionary'' and while the aforementioned type of over-landing person probably shared a similar worldview, this will be broadened along with the accessibility.

    This is an interesting point in itself, in that in previous decades, vehicles capable of over-landing would have been more accessible to more people (albeit with home-made accessories) but yet, the environments remained, by all accounts, less frequented and less ''accessible'' to the majority of people. So what then, has changed?

    Is it a case that the more, and I use this term with respect, ''Traditional'' over-lander has become the instrument of their own demise along with the very environments they seek to preserve? Aided by a greater exposure to these environments to a much wider audience, through printed and electronic media, with beautifully presented images and artfully worded travel-logs, creating the desires amongst the many that were previously shared by the few and supported by the advancements in technology that appear to make the realisation of those desires, relatively and easily, achievable?

    The issue is one of behaviour, which fits with the Tragedy of the Commons archetype:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

    Therefore, the only sure fire way of preventing this type of behaviour from having the negative impact that it is having then, is regulation and restricted access or reducing the systemic causes or contributors that lead to the desire and the means to access these areas.

    Eitherway, they will be exclusionary

    An interesting conundrum indeed
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  9. #25
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    Lekhubu has a real point
    Irresponsible use of T4A is definitely a problem. We’ve seen cases, particularly in Iona Angola where fools have forced tracks into the dunes and then sent the mapping into T4A and they’ve published it. Bruce, the warden there, was tearing his hair out at that bit of stupidity.
    The Nam thing is not just conventional tourists, either African or international.You can see this sort of thing on some of the far backtracks that are right off the tourist routes and realistically could only be local traffic.

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  11. #26
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietsweis View Post
    My argument is that if one is clever enough to land a job or run a business which pays enough to buy a 4x4 and nice to haves, then using it for overland tours (Which are relatively expensive) then they should have a bit of common sense, and if not at the very least go do some research on places to visit to know what the do's and dont's are.
    Exactly this! Couldn't agree more. At least one would assume this to be the fact. However, it often turns out that Voltaire knew it better: "Common sense is not so common".
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  12. #27
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    Quote Originally Posted by RPiet View Post
    As hypocritical as this post sounds, I think the problems are that the barriers of entry have been reduced far too much. This is something I copied from a friends Facebook post on the same issue a year or so back:

    Today, every middle manager drives a 4x4. Ten years ago, he would probably be the guy with the Demo model golf GTI, but now a fully kitted 4x4 is the new in thing. He will probably have every accessory under the sun fitted, most of them specced at purchase, and worked into the finance deal.
    Yes -in 'those days' they drove 323 BMW's with all the menace that went with the brawn and arrogance of an upwardly mobile middle manager. Now they drive Fortuners and Rangers.... Except that the stage has shifted from suburban roads to places where the little idjits should not be allowed anywhere near to. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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  13. #28
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    I suppose there is some inevitability that "pristine" areas will be spoiled as those who manage them and those who visit them have no real knowledge, care or feeling for them. This includes locals and overseas tourists I would guess. I grew through the age of riding or driving pretty much anywhere, taking any firewood and making big fires, burying rubbish (and toilet paper) to using only as much wood as needed, if any, hauling out all rubbish, staying on existing tracks and burning toilet paper. Thanks to Jan Joubert RIP), Mountain Club of SA, this forum and some others I became much more aware and careful and aware. I'm sure many or most forum members are the same but, we are sadly in a minority, particularly I think where African conservation authorities are concerned.

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  15. #29
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    Quote Originally Posted by mudgrubber View Post
    I suppose there is some inevitability that "pristine" areas will be spoiled as those who manage them and those who visit them have no real knowledge, care or feeling for them. This includes locals and overseas tourists I would guess. I grew through the age of riding or driving pretty much anywhere, taking any firewood and making big fires, burying rubbish (and toilet paper) to using only as much wood as needed, if any, hauling out all rubbish, staying on existing tracks and burning toilet paper. Thanks to Jan Joubert RIP), Mountain Club of SA, this forum and some others I became much more aware and careful and aware. I'm sure many or most forum members are the same but, we are sadly in a minority, particularly I think where African conservation authorities are concerned.
    One cant generalise of course but it is possible that, shall we say experience in years, changes one's outlook and approach to things. I enjoy going fly fishing but I dont enjoy fishing as much as fly tying. The same with hunting, I enjoy going hunting but I am quite happy with strolling through the veld and not shooting anything. My appreciation, in both activities, is derived more from the surroundings than the activities themselves.
    There is no such thing as inclement weather, only poor selection of clothing.... or Vehicle

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  17. #30
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    The way you act in certain circumstances are unfortunaly lots of times a reflection of the way you were brought up. Will leave it at that.

    What seems to be commen sense to most of us, are not that commen as the quote stated. Coming from a farming background it was commen sense to leave something the way you found it. If the gate was closed when you got there, close it behind you. If the gate was locked, someone locked it for a reason. If you dont have a key, you probably not supposed to go in. Dont push the fence down or break something to get in. So if you take something into a area, take it out again. Same with staying on existing tracks.

    Something that I have noticed on some of my trips is this. The whole group going on a trip for the first time, consists of unexperienced people. I think that makes for a slippery slope. They take way to much gear, they get stuck from inexperience, or being too heavy, mess up the tracks, get lost, drive through the bush or where no tracks go.

    Now I was very fortunate to go on most of my trips way off the beaten track with friends that are 20 years older than me. Friend had experience in the areas and could also act as father figure in terms of what goes and what doesnt. Wish lots more starter overlanders could have this privilage.
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  19. #31
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    The biggest problem is entitlement .. and the lack of consequences.
    Cogito, ergo sum - I think, therefore I am ... modern tourism's attitude [generalization] ... I can, therefore I will. Think Instagram tourism that is wrecking iconic landmarks.

    In my view the term "overlanding" is now just a glorified term for a Mugg & Bean / Spar / Branners & Coke or Champagne 10 day road trip to your nearest neighboring country.
    In May two vehicles left Deception to "go shopping" for the day at Rakops as their "supplies" were low - that is how accessible everything is nowadays.
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  21. #32
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    glad to see this doesnt bother only me, lot's of interesting views and comments etc as well.

    has gps made it easier for pax to enter the areas, yes it has, but I dont think thats really an excuse for people to behave like idjits.

    Misinformation does probably play a role, a trip report I read recently described a wild camping app, looks really cool, but did see some of the site's marked on the app, and I know for a fact you are not allowed to camp there. So who is to blame?

    I dont quite buy the "I didnt know" or "i'm a first time overlander" excuse...if you dont have the common sense to realise you dont do doughnuts in a wild protected area or don't realise that spinning up a hill where no tracks were before is a no go then sorry buddy, its best that you stay at home. Otherwise I assume I will be reading a tread about "I did not think picking up snakes could be dangerous" thread soon.

    Can it really be that people do no research on a area they will be doing a overlanding trip in? Ok, maybe yes. A few times I have approached people in restricted areas and their reply was "sorry we didnt know"...dude, I saw your tracks, you basically almost drove over the no entry sign...

    and yes, many are to blame, local tourists, foreign tourists and even as mentioned, some tour operators.

    sad, so sad...
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  22. #33
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    Quote Originally Posted by J Snyman View Post

    The fact remains that these areas are attracting the wrong type of visitors and the sad reality is that the only way to minimize these actions are to place a ban on all "self-drive" visitors to the area and only allow entry when in the company of registered concession-holding guides.

    Johan
    Makes me think now of the vandalised "stone men" further north...I mean c'mon...who does that?!?
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  23. #34
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    J Snyman and AboutAfrica,you are fighting losing battle.

    for every person,here,that you make aware what is good and what is not
    100 new ones pops out of water.

    i wish you good luck

  24. #35
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    Default Re: Just don't get some people...

    Quote Originally Posted by jadranko View Post
    J Snyman and AboutAfrica,you are fighting losing battle.

    for every person,here,that you make aware what is good and what is not
    100 new ones pops out of water.

    i wish you good luck
    Thank you, had a meeting with some of the local authorities last week and we looking into a plan.
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