Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness - Page 6





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  1. #101
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    based on this, would you consider maybe triggering a water spray or similar to cool down the intercooler?
    is it possible to do that, I'm not sure that ECU has provision for extra duties?
    Jelo,

    No the ECU does not have auxiliary channels that can be custom programmed.

    Water spray on the intercooler is in any case not that feasible as you will only be able to use it for short periods.

    If you have a constant hard pull to do, then the EGT's needs to stay within limits without all sorts of interventions.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    I think you have got to the point where an upgrade to the intercooler may be your only resort, biltong.
    Cheers,
    John

    Rover P6
    Land Rover Discovery II Td5 Manual
    Range Rover P38 HSE
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  3. #103
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnoK View Post
    I think you have got to the point where an upgrade to the intercooler may be your only resort, biltong.
    maybe a water/air intercooler? water is a better heat transfer medium

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnoK View Post
    I think you have got to the point where an upgrade to the intercooler may be your only resort, biltong.
    Based on what?
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    Based on what?
    I think he refers to your statement regarding the air temperature getting too high at a certain point. A bigger intercooler might help, but will it not lead to other issues like turbo lag again?
    We can't change the wind but we can set our sails

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Theron View Post
    I think he refers to your statement regarding the air temperature getting too high at a certain point. A bigger intercooler might help, but will it not lead to other issues like turbo lag again?
    Francois,


    First of all, I would like to know what is safely possible within the standard setup. To reduce EGT is a simple as reducing the fuel and if for example I need to detune it by 5% to get it within bounds, why then bother to do more? This is a realistic value as the air temperature increase is directly proportional to the amount of fuel injected and the mass of the air. Reduction of fuel by 5% can easily reduce EGT by 30C.

    Interestingly enough, the ECU has the ability to manage this, but it seems for some reason that function was not used.

    And think of it. If you get EGT down by installing a larger intercooler, what about your radiator that is not increased. Therefore, reducing fuel, is a more appropriate way of dealing with the problem.


    People think by simply increasing the frontal area of an intercooler by say 50%, will give 50% better heat transfer - that is in any case the perception created by sellers of aftermarket intercoolers.

    That is so far from the truth as can be.


    The reason for this is that intercoolers are almost without exception of the crossflow type. This means that increasing area in the wrong direction for example, will have limited effect.

    So, if you for example increase the width of the intercooler, instead of the height, and the area increase is the same percentage, then you will get better performance from an increase in height.

    To make it thicker and keeping the height and width the same, will also be a good bet too.

    In short, the intercooler shape is critical to better performance.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Super interesting reading Biltong and very keen to know more.
    2010 LR Discovery 4 V8 HSE - Lifted with IIDtool, Powered by Petrol and Running on Cooper AT3 LT (new spec) 265/65/18s [Imvubu]
    2004 LR Discovery 2 Td5 GS - mods in thread en route. (Ingwe)


  8. #108
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    Francois,


    First of all, I would like to know what is safely possible within the standard setup. To reduce EGT is a simple as reducing the fuel and if for example I need to detune it by 5% to get it within bounds, why then bother to do more? This is a realistic value as the air temperature increase is directly proportional to the amount of fuel injected and the mass of the air. Reduction of fuel by 5% can easily reduce EGT by 30C.

    Interestingly enough, the ECU has the ability to manage this, but it seems for some reason that function was not used.

    And think of it. If you get EGT down by installing a larger intercooler, what about your radiator that is not increased. Therefore, reducing fuel, is a more appropriate way of dealing with the problem.


    People think by simply increasing the frontal area of an intercooler by say 50%, will give 50% better heat transfer - that is in any case the perception created by sellers of aftermarket intercoolers.

    That is so far from the truth as can be.


    The reason for this is that intercoolers are almost without exception of the crossflow type. This means that increasing area in the wrong direction for example, will have limited effect.

    So, if you for example increase the width of the intercooler, instead of the height, and the area increase is the same percentage, then you will get better performance from an increase in height.

    To make it thicker and keeping the height and width the same, will also be a good bet too.

    In short, the intercooler shape is critical to better performance.
    I knew when I posted that I was opening a can of worms! Of course there is no action without a counter action in this case. I just reacted to JohnnoK's statement and your question. That's why I also immediately said there will be other issues. You are step by step spelling out why after market "tuning" is a minefield. I find it very interesting and enlightening.
    We can't change the wind but we can set our sails

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Theron View Post
    I knew when I posted that I was opening a can of worms! Of course there is no action without a counter action in this case. I just reacted to JohnnoK's statement and your question. That's why I also immediately said there will be other issues. You are step by step spelling out why after market "tuning" is a minefield. I find it very interesting and enlightening.

    Lets dwell a bit more on intercooler increase.

    With additional boost, my after-cooler air temp at full boost is about 50C higher than ambient. To decrease that to 25C means double the heat transfer, which will mean quite bit more than double the size intercooler.

    Where will you fit that?


    Just take the simple scenario:

    You hit a 40C day towing your trailer right into a strong headwind on your December holiday en route the beautiful Karoo.

    Somehow, to keep your 100 km/h your car works continuously at near the max power it can deliver then.

    If the tune if too hot, all that happens is that you need to back off on the throttle to keep EGT within bounds. What is the use of the hotter tune then?
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    Lets dwell a bit more on intercooler increase.

    With additional boost, my after-cooler air temp at full boost is about 50C higher than ambient. To decrease that to 25C means double the heat transfer, which will mean quite bit more than double the size intercooler.
    ( edit - correction. That depends on what what the inlet temperature is. If we maneged to get to 75 from 150, then it becomes pretty difficult to drop another 25 on a cross flow. )
    Last edited by biltong; 2019/09/17 at 11:55 AM.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    Based on what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Theron View Post
    I think he refers to your statement regarding the air temperature getting too high at a certain point. A bigger intercooler might help, but will it not lead to other issues like turbo lag again?
    Asked, and answered.
    Cheers,
    John

    Rover P6
    Land Rover Discovery II Td5 Manual
    Range Rover P38 HSE
    Moto Guzzi LeMans
    Aprilia Tuono V2

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnoK View Post
    Asked, and answered.

    Cool. Just motivate your statement.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    OK, so I had a the first long EGT trip done today, vehicle alone to Kimberley an back.

    Coming back, the ambient temperature was already 32⁰C and eventually with a bit of open road ahead, I pushed the Disco a little and set the Cruise Control on 140 km/h.

    I consider that speed to be way beyond what is acceptable for a vehicle of this kind and suitable for testing only. It ran the speed pretty strong and EGT's never went higher than 650⁰C.

    At one place, with a long incline ahead I gave it all it had, and only at bout 150 it eventually got to about 725⁰C.

    Cylinder head temperatures never exceeded 95⁰C.


    Considering that the turbo unit is specified for a sustained 720⁰C, you can run it this way in an emergency and know you will get there.


    Tomorrow however, there is a drastic change in plans and me and my son will be going down with the trailer to fetch my wife and daughter in Mossel Bay.

    So, we will enter some lekker "trekwreld" and it seems that the Karoo will kindly supply us with heat in the very late 30's along the way.

    This should be the kind of test I am waiting for. With 800km to travel, I will probably tow slightly harder at about 110 km/h, but that will all be determined by the EMS.

    I am also quite excited to see how my boost control works as it will automatically reduce the boost as we move down and I do hope to see some strong improvement below 2000 rpm at sea level.


    The current map offers very satisfying drive-ability. I can comfortably keep up with traffic plus some to deal with retards, and on the road overtaking is reasonably effortless - not quite my 320 CDi Benz - but at least nothing to make be reconsider religion as an option.


    Interestingly, this map is essentially not too far off the stock map, but with some important details fixed and a bit more more power in carefully regions where engine efficiency is expected to be better, the car feels like it is being pulled by an elastic band.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Thanks Koos for the call on Tuesday. Me and Koos had a very informative conversation about mapping, EGT"s, turbo boost and all that goodies going along with modified diesel engines.

    With Biltongs engineering back ground he used a very professional approach. Way diffrent from what the normal tuner would do.

    Most performance chips and maps is about increasing fuel and turbo pressure. Leaving you to drive with an eye glued to the EGT gauge. Very few tuners take note of AFR. To make more power on a turbo diesel they over fuel and add boost. This is quick horse power but with the price of uncontrolled EGT"s as AFR is way out of spec .

    Very interesting is that Biltong made a huge effort to keep AFR in check.

    We predicted forehand what the EGT would be. Yesterday's run proof it.

    Also his very clever way of controlling boost pressure.

    His engineering back ground and his expertise in the field of fluid dynamics definitely as serious advantage. No guess work but systematically annalising what needs to be done.

    Well done Koos
    Last edited by grips; 2019/09/19 at 06:58 AM.
    It is not what you buy its what you build.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    - but at least nothing to make be reconsider religion as an option.
    Lovely stuff!
    Cheers,
    John

    Rover P6
    Land Rover Discovery II Td5 Manual
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    Moto Guzzi LeMans
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  16. #116
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by grips View Post
    His engineering back ground and his expertise in the field of fluid dynamics definitely as serious advantage. No guess work but systematically annalising what needs to be done.

    Well done Koos

    Grips, now if I only had your experience in building engines and could benefit from the theoretical concepts you mastered on it.

    There is so much to learn on these topics.

    I think what people do not realise is that diesels are so extremely popular with tuners as it allows them to get massive dyno figures with zero effort.

    Problem is, one hey effed around with the fuel maps, they practically buggered up the extremely fine injector calibrations and AFR will be totally unpredictable throughout the rev range. They have zero control of smoke.
    Last edited by biltong; 2019/09/19 at 08:40 AM.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    Grips, now if I only had your experience in building engines and could benefit from the theoretical concepts you mastered on it.

    There is so much to learn on these topics.

    I think what people do not realise is that diesels are so extremely popular with tuners as it allows them to get massive dyno figures with zero effort.

    Problem is, one hey effed around with the fuel maps, they practically buggered up the extremely fine injector calibrations and AFR will be totally unpredictable throughout the rev range. They have zero control of smoke.
    If you look at some of the American programs like Diesel Brothers and see some of the YouTube offerings, it seems that black smoke is part and parcel of making diesels hop.
    Cheers,
    John

    Rover P6
    Land Rover Discovery II Td5 Manual
    Range Rover P38 HSE
    Moto Guzzi LeMans
    Aprilia Tuono V2

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnoK View Post
    If you look at some of the American programs like Diesel Brothers and see some of the YouTube offerings, it seems that black smoke is part and parcel of making diesels hop.
    If you have money for toys yes.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    Something I don't understand is, car and engine developers/manufacturers spend millions on development of new models, they employ some supposedly very clever engineers, why then can't they just add 4 weeks to their schedule to optimize the map as Biltong has done, thereby delivering a more refined product. But ja, I suppose that even then you will have people trying to get more power out of the engine without understanding the effect on the rest of the engine.
    Well done Biltong, this is/was an interesting thread to follow.
    Neil

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Remapped my D2 Td5 Auto - just to overcome the pull-away weakness

    And I am seriously impressed with the performance yesterday!

    We did 830km in 8.5 hours flat with lots of 35C weather along the way.

    As we left Bloemfontein, I set it on 110 km/h and the road was busy with lots off trucks and soon we had the usual head wind to.

    Overtaking was easy, even with some incline in the mix.

    EGT's stayed well within acceptable limits, rising slowly - not just shooting up like a rocket.

    It went over 700C only a handful of times, but on most overtaking maneuvres the max was well short of that by the time I had to get back in the lane.

    The auto shifts are perfect and even where I thought it worked hard with regular shifting, the Nanocom never reported more than 62C on the box.

    The boost control works brilliant. Very accurate. And especially from Graaff-Reinet where altitude changes a lot all the time, it was great to have the boost in the high places and not to worry about over boost in the low places.

    Intercooler temperatures usually just over 70C with 80C seen only at Lootsberg Pass at 1780m altitude.

    Cylinder head temperatures 103 C max and only once on the trip.

    Now hear me out. This was hard, but still considerate driving. I did not mercilessly hammer the vehicle all the way and did back off here and there.

    Fuel consumption 16l/100km which is very acceptable considering how hard it worked. I expected a little worse.


    The only area that needs a fine relook, is at 2250 rpm. The EGT's don't come up there as expected, and with towing the auto tends to hunt at 100 km/h. I can get a little more power out in that band and think I will detune fuel from 3500 rpm with 2.5% which is a negligible power loss, but will chop another 15C from EGT.

    Overall, I think this map is almost prefect - and with my personality it probably will never be.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

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