I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?





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    Default I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    Jip. So that you not only have rear air suspension, but front too.

    Looks like it can fit.




    And you don't actually NEED that fancy valve block. You can have one equalised channel for the front and one for the back.

    Can't yet figure out how the shock mounts thoughm - EDIT: Downloaded the Rave Manual for the P38.
    Last edited by biltong; 2019/08/09 at 12:58 AM.
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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    It should work. The D1 and 2 were derived from the RR chassis anyway. When I did the reverses, it was quite an easy job, bags out and coils in. They werent attached at the top so as the axel flexed, the tops of the springs came out of the air bag retaining cups. You might need to fit those.

    Quite a few Yanks had removed the compressor and valve bank from their RRs in favour of a compressor and tank with manually adjustable and independent valves.

    Interesting project
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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    Estee,

    I am just thinking how incredible the D3 rides on air. It really is magic carpet.

    And I think the D2 will feel the same with all corners on air.

    I see that there is a shock mounting welded to the RR axle in front. If the D2 has that, one only will have to change the turret in front.

    But one can easily go solenoid valve. The Refrigeraiton units can handle pressures multiple times that of the working pressure of air suspension, so it should be pretty robust, cheap and fully controllable.
    Last edited by biltong; 2019/08/09 at 05:57 AM.
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    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    For all the years I've been addicted to Land Rovers, I've seen 100's of guys chucking the air suspension out of the D2, but never of someone going air on all 4 corners!

    I'll be following this with interest - SWAMBO's D2 might benefit by it (to the detriment of my wallet...).
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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    Estee,

    I am just thinking how incredible the D3 rides on air. It really is magic carpet.

    And I think the D2 will feel the same with all corners on air.

    ...
    D3 has independent suspension. Doubt you will get the same levels of comfort.

    Not that the D2 is uncomfortable.

    A P38 is pretty much a D2 with a different body, so if you drive a P38 you'll have a good idea of how it compares to a D3.
    2004 Land Rover Discovery 2 Td5 ES

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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fontuin View Post
    D3 has independent suspension. Doubt you will get the same levels of comfort.

    Not that the D2 is uncomfortable.

    A P38 is pretty much a D2 with a different body, so if you drive a P38 you'll have a good idea of how it compares to a D3.
    Don't under estimate sfa...
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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?


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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    Jip. So that you not only have rear air suspension, but front too.

    Looks like it can fit.

    And you don't actually NEED that fancy valve block. You can have one equalised channel for the front and one for the back.

    Can't yet figure out how the shock mounts thoughm - EDIT: Downloaded the Rave Manual for the P38.
    It's more complicated than that if you want SLS(or EAS) which means automatic self levelling. If you want manually controlled air suspension then yes, you can simplify it.
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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by sierrafery View Post
    It's more complicated than that if you want SLS(or EAS) which means automatic self levelling. If you want manually controlled air suspension then yes, you can simplify it.
    Why?

    I can built a nice controller for that.
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    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    What kind of controller do you have in mind and how would it make the vehicle to self level by managing each bag individually with one "equalised channel" for front and one for rear?? .... what do you mean by equalised channel?
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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by sierrafery View Post
    What kind of controller do you have in mind and how would it make the vehicle to self level by managing each bag individually with one "equalised channel" for front and one for rear?? .... what do you mean by equalised channel?
    The stiffness of the airbag is determined by the air pressure.

    Since your coil springs at the front/rear has the same stiffness, it should be no problem to have each end on a common line.

    I think the reasoning behind doing each corner independently, may be to ensure that a line failure can only affect one corner.

    I do not think it i such a big deal if one does a good installation with quality pipe.


    If i then do a controller, then all it will be is something with a selected height for road use - which can be low. For off road use, one can have a standard and extended height.

    The system will be inherently self leveling.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
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    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    Since your coil springs at the front/rear has the same stiffness,


    Are you sure? Maybe left and right have the same stiffness, but I can't believe front and rear coils are the same.

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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wicd View Post
    Are you sure? Maybe left and right have the same stiffness, but I can't believe front and rear coils are the same. [/COLOR]
    I did not say that.
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    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    a lot of people even fit EAS to the Defender - pricy, but apparently worth it.

    http://defenderupgrades.co.uk/produc...90-110-models/
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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    Interesting, will follow with expectation of smiles at the end..
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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    No probs, go ahead with your project based on a rudimentary view about what EAS or SLS means then you'll see the result. Good luck
    2000 Discovery Td5 ES manual, tuned

    Hawkeye v.6, Nanocom EVO,
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    i DON'T ANSWER TO TECHNICAL QUESTIONS IN PM'S

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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by sierrafery View Post
    No probs, go ahead with your project based on a rudimentary view about what EAS or SLS means then you'll see the result. Good luck
    It seems you are an expert on this subject. Show us a bit what you have done.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
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    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    The stiffness of the airbag is determined by the air pressure.

    Since your coil springs at the front/rear has the same stiffness, it should be no problem to have each end on a common line.

    I think the reasoning behind doing each corner independently, may be to ensure that a line failure can only affect one corner.

    I do not think it i such a big deal if one does a good installation with quality pipe.


    If i then do a controller, then all it will be is something with a selected height for road use - which can be low. For off road use, one can have a standard and extended height.

    The system will be inherently self leveling.
    The P38 has ride height sensors. Something you might need to consider in the design
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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    I might be an expert as long as i've been studying hard for the last 12 years how all the systems on the D2 are working even though i didnt make myself ''innovations"as you want to. I dont want to offend you i'm just trying to help you understand the fracture in your logic so for that:
    Since your coil springs at the front/rear has the same stiffness, it should be no problem to have each end on a common line.
    for example on the rear if you have only one air supply line and a valve for each spring it means that there can be many cases when both bags must be inflated at the same time like when you put a load in the boot and a heavy guy will hop in on the let's say right side, then the controller should start the compressor and open both valves at the same time to inflate both bags as to relevel the vehicle, as both bags are connected to the same line when both valves are open the bags are connected to each other so the pressure in the system works like in communicating vessels which means the right side where the heavy guy is will go down while the left will go up and then the controller will insist to relevel untill the whole thing blows, the same theory is valid for front too, with your kind of setup with a common air supply line for two bags once both valves are opened at the same time that vehicle will be at the same level all around only if the weight is evenly placed in it as to have the same pressure on each corner ... that's why each bag needs it's own air supply line if you see what i mean.... i hope i'm wrong and you'll be able to make it like you think but i doubt that if it was so simple LR would have overcomplicated it with separate lines for each bag just like that
    Last edited by sierrafery; 2019/08/18 at 06:12 AM.
    2000 Discovery Td5 ES manual, tuned

    Hawkeye v.6, Nanocom EVO,
    VDM UCANDAS, oscilloscope


    i DON'T ANSWER TO TECHNICAL QUESTIONS IN PM'S

    ALL MY ADVICES ARE BASED ON MY OWN EXPERIENCE AND MY WAY OF UNDERSTANDING THE DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION OF SYSTEMS... I'M NOT A LAND ROVER SPECIALIST JUST AN ADDICTED ENTHUSIAST

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    Default Re: I can't sleep so I thought: What about fitting RR P38 Air suspension in a D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by sierrafery View Post
    I might be an expert as long as i've been studying hard for the last 12 years how all the systems on the D2 are working even though i didnt make myself ''innovations"as you want to. I dont want to offend you i'm just trying to help you understand the fracture in your logic so for that:

    for example on the rear if you have only one air supply line and a valve for each spring it means that there can be many cases when both bags must be inflated at the same time like when you put a load in the boot and a heavy guy will hop in on the let's say right side, then the controller should start the compressor and open both valves at the same time to inflate both bags as to relevel the vehicle, as both bags are connected to the same line when both valves are open the bags are connected to each other so the pressure in the system works like in communicating vessels which means the right side where the heavy guy is will go down while the left will go up and then the controller will insist to relevel untill the whole thing blows, the same theory is valid for front too, with your kind of setup with a common air supply line for two bags once both valves are opened at the same time that vehicle will be at the same level all around only if the weight is evenly placed in it as to have the same pressure on each corner ... that's why each bag needs it's own air supply line if you see what i mean.... i hope i'm wrong and you'll be able to make it like you think but i doubt that if it was so simple LR would have overcomplicated it with separate lines for each bag just like that

    You get two types of people:

    1. Those who can only think of all the thousands of reasons why something can NOT work.
    2. Those who are able to find the five ways that CAN make it work.


    I am afraid to say that your grasp of engineering, is simplistic at best. My knowledge of engineering is rather broad and I have designed many once-off multi-integrated systems in my life, so I am quite comfortable with this "problem" is you would like to call it that. I am not an armchair engineer. I actually build things and my garage is better equipped than many workshops that you have to pay money for.

    This problem is not rocket science.


    Let me ask you a question first: How do you think truck air suspension works? It comes from way back, has multiple axles, and has no electronic control! A common arrangement on these systems is a single height control valve driving two airbags on a axle - usually the front axle where uneven load is not expected.


    First of all, my idea is no innovation. It is simply a configuration design.

    Since the components already exists, and the fact that the P38 and the D2 for all practical purposes shares just about everything apart from body panels and interior trim, there is very little that I will have to make.

    In fact, with a hand or two as help, it will probably be no more than one Saturday of work to get the goodies in - neatly.


    Ride height sensors will be essential components if you make a controller, as there is no other way to do self leveling for that matter. The reason why electronic sensors will be used, is that it is easy to change the ride height at any time. Mechanical ride height controllers will not allow instant change of height without some complex linkages.

    So, if you thought that electronics makes it more complex, it actually does not. It makes the work a lot easier and a lot simpler.


    If you bear with me, I do not have time right now to type out a lecture about the differences in working of an "air spring" vs an "iron spring". It will take quite a few paragraphs and some maths to show the difference, we will have refer to ideal gas laws etc, and I doubt that there will be many people interested in that kind of ramble. I have done it before on this forum, and you will see that as soon as people who are not skilled in engineering is confronted with some sound theory they cannot follow, they will revert to "logic"and the argument that theory and practice is divorced from each other. In these cases, the Dunning-Kruger effect often plays a strong role.

    Have a look at what my signature says a bout "logic".


    It is very possible to design a mechanical system to be inherently self-balancing - as long as the designer understands what principles of physics he can exploit to enable this behavior.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

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