Discovery 4 E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28





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  1. #1
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    Default E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    En route to Kruger recently, going over Barberton pass from KZN side, all of a sudden the rev counter jumps, temporarily loose power, then it kicks back into gear and carry on.

    Next morning, gearbox doesn't change into 4th gear and only when you change to manual can you get it higher.

    Ended up hiring a vehicle for the Kruger trip. Now the D4 is back in Durban with ZF who are going to give me feedback but issues are pointing to the 'dreaded e-clutch failure'

    https://axleaddict.com/auto-repair/Z...E-Clutch-Fault

    So let's see. I did get some EXCELLENT support and advice from both ZF Services Germiston and ZF Services Durban.

    My advice to D4 owners, DO NOT do a 'double-flush' and rather get the gearbox serviced through ZF.
    2004 LR Discovery 2 Td5 GS - Hybrid Turbo, Intercooler, 33's, 2" Lift, V8 TC, Ashcroft CW&P 3.75 + ATB lockers. [GoldiloX]
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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Sorry to hear this is the potential cause of what has happened. Hope its not too costly to repair

    Quote Originally Posted by douglash View Post
    My advice to D4 owners, DO NOT do a 'double-flush' and rather get the gearbox serviced through ZF.
    This statement has me curious, is this from ZF themselves?
    Rob,

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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Quote Originally Posted by DETOUR-GP View Post
    Sorry to hear this is the potential cause of what has happened. Hope its not too costly to repair



    This statement has me curious, is this from ZF themselves?
    Cause = unknown as yet.

    Was advised that the double flush would have contributed to the wear as it's removing the binding agents. Rather get the box serviced by the specialists (ZF).
    2004 LR Discovery 2 Td5 GS - Hybrid Turbo, Intercooler, 33's, 2" Lift, V8 TC, Ashcroft CW&P 3.75 + ATB lockers. [GoldiloX]
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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Quote Originally Posted by douglash View Post
    Cause = unknown as yet.

    Was advised that the double flush would have contributed to the wear as it's removing the binding agents. Rather get the box serviced by the specialists (ZF).
    I believe that's why many recommend adding Dr Tranny which adds back the binding properties... Reason for my asking is this statement contradicts plenty of recommendations to do a double flush and I am one of those who has done the flush.

    Has your car been remapped? Chipped?
    Last edited by DETOUR-GP; 2019/07/22 at 11:49 AM.
    Rob,

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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Quote Originally Posted by DETOUR-GP View Post
    I believe that's why many recommend adding Dr Tranny which adds back the binding properties... Reason for my asking is this statement contradicts plenty of recommendations to do a double flush and I am one of those who has done the flush.

    Has your car been remapped? Chipped?
    Had the double flush done and Dr Tranny added. That was 50k km ago approx.

    It's the 5.0 so remapping not going to give great gains therefore not remapped.
    2004 LR Discovery 2 Td5 GS - Hybrid Turbo, Intercooler, 33's, 2" Lift, V8 TC, Ashcroft CW&P 3.75 + ATB lockers. [GoldiloX]
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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    If I remember correctly, ZF also mentioned that will analyse the oil or something and then decide about a double flush
    Especially if the mileage is higher, they will not do it as a rule
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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Quote Originally Posted by hcs View Post
    If I remember correctly, ZF also mentioned that will analyse the oil or something and then decide about a double flush
    Especially if the mileage is higher, they will not do it as a rule
    Correct, took my 2011 D4 V8 in at about 160k km to Durban ZF branch. Ricardo mentioned that my gearbox oil has probably NEVER been flushed and topped up, so I must leave it as it can cause problems. I don't really understand why, but he's the expert.

    Since then, I've been driving around and my only worry is my gearbox. Stupid, I know but I have no idea when these things start failing. I'm at 174k km now. Hoping it lasts, because I'm planning to keep this car for a long time still.

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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Quote Originally Posted by jldup View Post
    Correct, took my 2011 D4 V8 in at about 160k km to Durban ZF branch. Ricardo mentioned that my gearbox oil has probably NEVER been flushed and topped up, so I must leave it as it can cause problems. I don't really understand why, but he's the expert.

    Since then, I've been driving around and my only worry is my gearbox. Stupid, I know but I have no idea when these things start failing. I'm at 174k km now. Hoping it lasts, because I'm planning to keep this car for a long time still.
    If planning on keeping, then rather get it sorted now.

    Also had a bit of an emotional state after another expense but when I looked at the cost of repair being equal to about 3 months instalments, i'm happy to repair and keep
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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Quote Originally Posted by douglash View Post
    That was 50k km ago approx.
    Could the issue really be attributed to maintenance work done 50k km ago? Seems a stretch to blame work/procedure done so long ago? Honest question, not causing
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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    Could the issue really be attributed to maintenance work done 50k km ago? Seems a stretch to blame work/procedure done so long ago? Honest question, not causing
    No, I don't think the double flush isn't to blame 50k ago but if a double flush is not recommended by the actual agents, I don't think it should have been done as it could contribute to the issues.

    Going forward, I'll rather talk to the ZF specialists when it comes to gearbox issues and leave other work to my indy especially because they are also not aware of the past history of the vehicle if i only bought it 2nd hand.

    #schoolfees
    2004 LR Discovery 2 Td5 GS - Hybrid Turbo, Intercooler, 33's, 2" Lift, V8 TC, Ashcroft CW&P 3.75 + ATB lockers. [GoldiloX]
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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Plus, ZF gearbox service is, well it my case it was, half the price the indies charge
    Their service was excellent and will definitely recommend them
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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    I agree with Douglash on the ZF recommendation.

    Waiting in anticipation for my E-clutch to go, adaption values are waaaay past what they should be. ZF checks the adaption values before doing an oil change, as the box might be too far along for new oil or dr Tranny to help. Beyond 300 millibar odd they don't recommend a change. I did a change at 120 000 myself and then one by ZF on forum special in 2016 at 200 000. By then the values were past 300 mb and I took a chance on it. In January I went past there as I had a transmission overheat whilst towing caravan. IIRC the value was 580 mb for the E-clutch, and decided not to hasten the box's demise by doing a change. Apparently the upper limit is 700 mb, then the loss of higher gears occur and you need a re-build. So in the meantime I 'm putting money in the piggybank for that eventuality. In perspective, a complete ZF rebuild is still less than half the cost of a new sub-assembly for a dinky 1.2l Polo motor.
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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Gearbox issues seem to be fairly common on the D4's, is this model of ZF box used by other vehicles as well? I have had a number of automatic cars in my life some with original gearbox oil on high mileage and some with oil changes, but none ever with any real issues. In my opinion an old school auto box is pretty bullet proof. (Unless this is not an old school auto box?)

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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Quote Originally Posted by Commander View Post
    Gearbox issues seem to be fairly common on the D4's, is this model of ZF box used by other vehicles as well? I have had a number of automatic cars in my life some with original gearbox oil on high mileage and some with oil changes, but none ever with any real issues. In my opinion an old school auto box is pretty bullet proof. (Unless this is not an old school auto box?)
    We also have some high mileage old school autos in the family. Though I still prefer the older basic auto boxes for the ease in which they just always seem to work, they all get annual oil changes
    Our oldest being two Mercs, one '85 and one 89 model. We can feel when its time for a oil change, gearchanges get clunky etc
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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Quote Originally Posted by Commander View Post
    Gearbox issues seem to be fairly common on the D4's, is this model of ZF box used by other vehicles as well? I have had a number of automatic cars in my life some with original gearbox oil on high mileage and some with oil changes, but none ever with any real issues. In my opinion an old school auto box is pretty bullet proof. (Unless this is not an old school auto box?)
    The ZF 6HP range of boxes are used widely, either in the ZF6HP19, ZF6HP25, etc. ranges across BMW, Mercedes, Land Rover, Jag, Audi, Ford, etc. etc. and they are fantastic boxes with a great reputation.
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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Quote Originally Posted by hcs View Post
    We also have some high mileage old school autos in the family. Though I still prefer the older basic auto boxes for the ease in which they just always seem to work, they all get annual oil changes
    Our oldest being two Mercs, one '85 and one 89 model. We can feel when its time for a oil change, gearchanges get clunky etc
    I have previously also heard that one should not change oil on a higher mileage auto if it was not periodically changed before, annually seems quite often but if it works well and is not prohibitively expensive then thats great. My perception of older gen torque converter auto boxes are that they rarely fail, and I certainly have not had personal experience with a box failing.

    Quote Originally Posted by douglash View Post
    The ZF 6HP range of boxes are used widely, either in the ZF6HP19, ZF6HP25, etc. ranges across BMW, Mercedes, Land Rover, Jag, Audi, Ford, etc. etc. and they are fantastic boxes with a great reputation.
    This was what I expected to hear, ZF has a brilliant reputation so I am surprised that there seems to be significant occurrence of failure in the D4 community, as mentioned before catastrophic gearbox failure is not really an Item I loose sleep over (well not on a old school auto) and I much prefer them for towing and off road work. I would be interested to see what the root cause analysis proves in this case.

    Also taking into consideration that gearbox oil changes seem to be one of the first major maintenance items to fall by the way side, buying a used D4 (in the region of 150k km to 180k km) then adds a significant risk factor. Add to this that you can't say for certain if the oil changes was ever done as they should it seems to result in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario where oil changes/double flush changes are concerned.

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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Quote Originally Posted by Commander View Post
    Also taking into consideration that gearbox oil changes seem to be one of the first major maintenance items to fall by the way side, buying a used D4 (in the region of 150k km to 180k km) then adds a significant risk factor. Add to this that you can't say for certain if the oil changes was ever done as they should it seems to result in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario where oil changes/double flush changes are concerned.
    Precisely. All going on what previous owners have done and not knowing the full life history of the vehicle and the gearbox it's a game of roulette.
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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Quote Originally Posted by Commander View Post
    I have previously also heard that one should not change oil on a higher mileage auto if it was not periodically changed before, annually seems quite often but if it works well and is not prohibitively expensive then thats great. My perception of older gen torque converter auto boxes are that they rarely fail, and I certainly have not had personal experience with a box failing.



    This was what I expected to hear, ZF has a brilliant reputation so I am surprised that there seems to be significant occurrence of failure in the D4 community, as mentioned before catastrophic gearbox failure is not really an Item I loose sleep over (well not on a old school auto) and I much prefer them for towing and off road work. I would be interested to see what the root cause analysis proves in this case.

    Also taking into consideration that gearbox oil changes seem to be one of the first major maintenance items to fall by the way side, buying a used D4 (in the region of 150k km to 180k km) then adds a significant risk factor. Add to this that you can't say for certain if the oil changes was ever done as they should it seems to result in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario where oil changes/double flush changes are concerned.
    Yes, maybe overkill in terms of annual service. But they do incredibly short mileage so rather as a precaution

    In terms of oil changes/flushes on the D3/D4.. I dont think the oil was changed on my D3 prior to me buying it. I took it to ZF who analyzed the oil and made a change/flush recommendation based on that. I did have a slight shudder that was cured after the oil change.
    Biggest thing I would recommend is to let ZF look after the gearbox, and a good indy the rest of the vehicle
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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    Quote Originally Posted by hcs View Post
    Yes, maybe overkill in terms of annual service. But they do incredibly short mileage so rather as a precaution

    In terms of oil changes/flushes on the D3/D4.. I dont think the oil was changed on my D3 prior to me buying it. I took it to ZF who analyzed the oil and made a change/flush recommendation based on that. I did have a slight shudder that was cured after the oil change.
    Biggest thing I would recommend is to let ZF look after the gearbox, and a good indy the rest of the vehicle
    That seems to be the most sensible and least risky way of going forward in the event one buys a 2nd hand D4. Do you have a ball park figure on what this is expected to cost?

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    Default Re: E-clutch failure - ZF6HP28

    To say that a gearbox doesnt need an oil change by the ZF agents, or to say it is because of an oil change, sorry I cant fathom that.

    Firstly according ZF, the gearbox is sealed for life, 10 yrs or 240 000 km, it is ridiculous to say that my D3, made in 2005, had a gearbox fitted for 10 yrs only , come on ,what a bunch of bull dust by ZF

    A working gearbox like mine, towing, towing and towing CANNOT operate on the same oil for 10 yrs.It is precisely because of this stupid sealed "for life" story that guys have failure on the torque converters and boxes.

    When you use your gearbox, to the limit , towing through sand in Botz OR towing a ski boat for 8 km on soft beach sand and launching and retrieving it , the oil cannot last for ever, for that reason I believe these boxes need new oil every 80 000 km.
    When I did my first oil change at 90 000 km , my oil looked like tar, it smells like burn.

    The 1 st time I read about this box was on the F150 Forum in the USA , where they had the same issues, the boxes overworked and the oil was passed what it was supposed to do as an auto transmission fluid, the burn started on the clutches and formed a glaze because of the OLD oil.
    They solved this problem , by adding new oil and used Dr Tranny , which contains a benzine , that cleande the glaze off the clutches.

    Take these boxes , and give it new oil every 80 000km.
    This is not a vehicle in Scandinavia, driving , not towing in below 10 degrees ambient temp for its 10 yr life, maybe there the oil will last
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