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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Quote Originally Posted by PieterOos View Post
    I have met an investor / restructuring specialist (finance and legal) by chance who is involved in SOE's (up to ministerial level) on an almost daily basis. I asked him his opinion on this and according to him it is waaay too big/ deep with too many powerful and high up people to prosecute. (But some 'token' prosecutions will happen)
    Yes. I do not expect everybody. They would run out of politicians but they have to lock up some. Zuma is in court. If he goes to jail is an other matter. At least he burns somebody's money.

    Why politicians and officials fight to the end is not only the jail time. But if there is 2 year (?) sentence or more they cannot be selected as a politician or some official. No job and no access to state or municipal resources.
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Quote Originally Posted by PieterOos View Post
    I have met an investor / restructuring specialist (finance and legal) by chance who is involved in SOE's (up to ministerial level) on an almost daily basis. I asked him his opinion on this and according to him it is waaay too big/ deep with too many powerful and high up people to prosecute. (But some 'token' prosecutions will happen)
    Maybe it won't be politically expedient to prosecute and jail those high up however I believe those that there is any evidence of large wind falls of money should be left to the mercy of SARS.

    They have serious legislation behind them to make the beneficiaries of corruptions lives very miserable in strictest confidence.

    Even globally there are treaties coming up that will make it hard to hide the loot.

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  3. #43
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Quote Originally Posted by Karol View Post
    Maybe it won't be politically expedient to prosecute and jail those high up however I believe those that there is any evidence of large wind falls of money should be left to the mercy of SARS.

    They have serious legislation behind them to make the beneficiaries of corruptions lives very miserable in strictest confidence.

    Even globally there are treaties coming up that will make it hard to hide the loot.
    I agree..
    Last edited by JohanRoux; 2019/05/09 at 02:17 PM.

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  5. #44
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Listening this Transnet inquiry.

    I am sure a person cannot be jailed because he/she is stupid
    I am not sure if a person can be jailed for breaking Treasury or Transnet rules

    I am sure that person can be jailed if he/she received money to be stupid or to break the procedures.

    Top people broke all the rules and that is in writing with their signatures on paper, they made super stupid decisions resulting huge losses to Transnet and even unnecessary high fee to the pension fund. They must find payments/money and start prosecuting. There is no need to prosecute all cases in one go. Break up the cases and start.

    We are talking about billions lost. Pension fund some R235 milj.
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    You really do get the impression that some people were put in positions where they were in charge of amounts of money they had no grasp of the meaning of the numbers involved. Whether it be 1 million or 100 million it all seems to be the same to some of them.
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  8. #46
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Eleventy million, four hundred and 60 thousands and thirty thousands
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Theron View Post
    You really do get the impression that some people were put in positions where they were in charge of amounts of money they had no grasp of the meaning of the numbers involved. Whether it be 1 million or 100 million it all seems to be the same to some of them.
    I wonder where that might have come from?

  10. #48
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    This State Capture thing reminds me of a clip I watched last night about the biggest corruption scandal in Brazil. Lots of similarities.


  11. #49
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    As far as I know people who arrange these payments are still in the country. My conclusion out of that is simple. These people did not understand what was happening/did not understand numbers and did not charge enough. Most probably enablers did receive some money but peanuts. If Gupta company was paid R166 milj for nothing and the one who approved it received R1 milj:
    - Person cannot run away with R1 milj
    - R1 milj is 0.6% of R166 milj. Can you have better business than such
    - R1 milj must have sounded a lot for the person receiving

    I have no idea how much was paid. If nothing was paid or something like 0.6% was paid then quite a few of the past Transnet top management should be sent to Sterkfontein.
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Theron View Post
    You really do get the impression that some people were put in positions where they were in charge of amounts of money they had no grasp of the meaning of the numbers involved. Whether it be 1 million or 100 million it all seems to be the same to some of them.
    Jacques Paauw wrote in his book that JZ had no idea how to work with money but knew exactly how to steal it
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    This morning the story was about an interest rate swop to get a fixed rate instead of a variable rate. The decision has cost about R1.4bn to date.

    Now a rate swop is a form of hedging, and things might have gone the other way in which case one looks good instead of silly. But the problem at Transnet is that an apparently very competent internal treasury department was by passed. Obviously the intention was to give a favoured outsider an opportunity to earn a transaction fee, and I am sure that had the original loan carried a fixed rate, then they would have swopped to get a variable rate!

    It seems that Molefe & Co made it the norm to authorize transactions the size of which necessitated board approval on their own. Obviously because those transactions had some questionable element. Occasionally in business you have to exceed your mandate, but you should then immediately report what you did, and why, to the next level for an ex post facto condonation. To fail to do so generally indicates that you have something to hide!

    The problem with many of these actions, is that to constitute a crime for which you can be convicted and possibly sentenced to a custodial sentence (which we would all like to see happen), an act has to be defined as a crime, or some statute has to define it as such and prescribe a fine and or jail time. That they were merely stupid or negligent is unfortunately insufficient.

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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    [QUOTE=Ian.McM;4145934}

    The problem with many of these actions, is that to constitute a crime for which you can be convicted and possibly sentenced to a custodial sentence (which we would all like to see happen), an act has to be defined as a crime, or some statute has to define it as such and prescribe a fine and or jail time. That they were merely stupid or negligent is unfortunately insufficient.[/QUOTE]
    Is it fortunate or unfortunate. ?

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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Those interest swaps were really stupid. Transnet made a huge effort to figure out the loans and conditions. They took floating rate as they normally do. Some three months later Gupta company says "fixed rate". Decision is done in couple days. They do the swap, get a payment from the pension fund and for different loans from Transnet. But then there seem to be hidden fee in the high interest rate agreed. And there was no contract for the Gupta company to do this "work". Also Transnet have highly skilled people to do this type of transactions.

    When the agreements were sent to Transnet treasury department they were "shocked", went to market and found out that the agreed fixed rate was about 1% point higher than average for the deals at the time.

    Nedbank seniors woke up few months later and asked Transnet to confirm that there was authority and wilingness to make this bad deal. One Transnet employee answered "Yes".

    Chinese paid or are still paying 22% commission for each logo to a Hong Kong based company. Logo is over R50 milj each and there are over 1000 of them. It is about 10 milj per logo. Add monies collected on financial deals, swaps, relocation, maintenance... I would not surprised if Guptas got at least R15 milj per logo.

    This rot started when Gigaba nominated Molefe and Singh plus possibly some board members. Those then changed people who could not be bought...
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  18. #54
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Transnet people have been hard working. One department only has 1100 employees but Transnet was paying for 2200 leased computers

    And surely Guptas were involved in leasing....

    Zondo is highly upset
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian.McM View Post
    The problem with many of these actions, is that to constitute a crime for which you can be convicted and possibly sentenced to a custodial sentence (which we would all like to see happen), an act has to be defined as a crime, or some statute has to define it as such and prescribe a fine and or jail time. That they were merely stupid or negligent is unfortunately insufficient.
    Quote Originally Posted by plunger View Post
    Is it fortunate or unfortunate. ?
    I believe it is deliberate, this has been thought through very carefully by some very smart people, most of whom will only ever get their names in the newspapers and not on a charge sheet...
    So many people make the incorrect assumption that these people are stupid, but they are far from that.
    We judge clever or stupid by our own metric, be it IQ or Matric Certificate/Degree, but those fail to account for what the Afrikaners so succinctly call "SKELM".
    You really do get the impression that some people were put in positions where they were in charge of amounts of money they had no grasp of the meaning of the numbers involved. Whether it be 1 million or 100 million it all seems to be the same to some of them.
    The numbers may not mean much beyond the availability of so much MORE to steal.
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  20. #56
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnoK View Post
    I believe it is deliberate, this has been thought through very carefully by some very smart people, most of whom will only ever get their names in the newspapers and not on a charge sheet...
    So many people make the incorrect assumption that these people are stupid, but they are far from that.
    We judge clever or stupid by our own metric, be it IQ or Matric Certificate/Degree, but those fail to account for what the Afrikaners so succinctly call "SKELM".

    The numbers may not mean much beyond the availability of so much MORE to steal.
    As a member of a board there are certain standards you have to adhere to. And ignorance is not an excuse. At the very least these characters should be prohibited from ever serving in a senior government position or on the board of any company again. The ones serving as CAs should also be in trouble, because as a CA you also have duties and standards you have to adhere to, that don't apply to members of the public. All this can be done without anyone being prosecuted for a crime.

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  22. #57
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Quote Originally Posted by JohanRoux View Post
    As a member of a board there are certain standards you have to adhere to. And ignorance is not an excuse. At the very least these characters should be prohibited from ever serving in a senior government position or on the board of any company again. The ones serving as CAs should also be in trouble, because as a CA you also have duties and standards you have to adhere to, that don't apply to members of the public. All this can be done without anyone being prosecuted for a crime.
    Well, SAICA has already terminated the membership of some members. In the case of those who were audit partners, they have to wait for the IRBA to find against them first.

    A lot of people will be or have been dismissed from their jobs. But what I would like to see is the likes of Brian Molefe and Anoj Singh in orange overalls because they deserve it. It is that level of person where I just hope that some of their transgressions fall within the legal definition of a crime.

    It should be a slam dunk that JZ gets convicted on the arms deal charges, because there is clear evidence of money flows in bank accounts. Not so sure he did not learn a lesson and avoid those mistakes with State Capture.
    Last edited by Ian.McM; 2019/05/17 at 03:08 PM.

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  23. #58
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian.McM View Post
    Well, SAICA has already terminated the membership of some members. In the case of those who were audit partners, they have to wait for the IRBA to find against them first.

    A lot of people will be or have been dismissed from their jobs. But what I would like to see is the likes of Brian Molefe and Ivan Pillay in orange overalls because they deserve it. It is that level of person where I just hope that some of their transgressions fall within the legal definition of a crime.

    It should be a slam dunk that JZ gets convicted on the arms deal charges, because there is clear evidence of money flows in bank accounts. Not so sure he did not learn a lesson and avoid those mistakes with State Capture.
    Yep, and seeing some of the mofos in orange will help my mental health considerably as well!

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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian.McM View Post
    Well, SAICA has already terminated the membership of some members. In the case of those who were audit partners, they have to wait for the IRBA to find against them first.

    A lot of people will be or have been dismissed from their jobs. But what I would like to see is the likes of Brian Molefe and Ivan Pillay in orange overalls because they deserve it. It is that level of person where I just hope that some of their transgressions fall within the legal definition of a crime.

    It should be a slam dunk that JZ gets convicted on the arms deal charges, because there is clear evidence of money flows in bank accounts. Not so sure he did not learn a lesson and avoid those mistakes with State Capture.
    you will never see the kingpins in orange.........
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    Default Re: Transnet - State capture

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    you will never see the kingpins in orange.........
    Probably not, because like the US Mafia bosses the actual dirty deeds were done by foot soldiers. One can always hope that someone who can give convincing evidence in court will be offered an attractive deal.

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