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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul#25 View Post
    The normal standard for aircraft systems is to have 3 systems operating in parallel at all times. These systems crosscheck data against each other all the time to detect any failures or discrepancies in the sensor data. One might have priority with the other 2 in a standby mode. If there is a downgrade in the operating system there is a seamless transfer to the the next fully operating system. The priority protocol is programmed to alway have to best system in charge. It seems that the trim system in question on this aircraft was a patch for another problem that didn't conform to this line of design by only having one angle of attack sensor giving the input to the system. If the data from this sensor is not correct then it cannot crosscheck against the other sensors and carries on trying to over ride the pilot inputs.
    Someone mentioned that these planes have 2 sensor sets. The problem is of course if one set goes faulty, the "plane" has no way of knowing which one is faulty and what the correct readings are. Like Paul said, 3 systems are necessary.

    Some pilots also maintain that had the pilots been trained properly about this, they would have been able to cope by over riding the system.


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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko View Post
    FAA and Boeing messed this one up. Pilots should have been trained properly. Air France/Airbus have had their own problems with sensors and pilots not being able to fly planes without 100% working sensor set. That was fixed and I am pretty sure any possible issue with 737 will be sorted out also. It will be a big loss if software update and training doesn't solve the issue.
    Airliners as well? Forgive my ignorance, I am not a pilot, but this just sounds like a pure technical training issue?

    It almost seems like there was an assumption that a 737-800 pilot would be able to pilot a MAX8 with very little additional training even though they are quite different aircraft

    Almost like "hey I see you flew a A340, here have this A350".

    Before Lion air very few pilots were aware of MCAS. After Lion air only one airliner from South America (their name eludes me now), bothered to retraining pilots on MCAS.

    FAA in the US recons the plane is safe. I recon with a properly trained pilot they are..
    Last edited by kab123; 2019/03/13 at 07:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by kab123 View Post
    Airliners as well? Forgive my ignorance, I am not a pilot, but this just sounds like a pure technical training issue?

    It almost seems like there was an assumption that a 737-800 pilot would be able to pilot a MAX8 with very little additional training even though they are quite different aircraft

    Almost like "hey I see you flew a A340, here have this A350".

    Before Lion air very few pilots were aware of MCAS. After Lion air only one airliner from South America (their name eludes me now), bothered to retraining pilots on MCAS.

    FAA in the US recons the plane is safe. I recon with a properly trained pilot they are..
    three things

    - stupid MCAS software logic
    - stupid 2-sensor non redundant system
    - stupid illogical disable process: pilot action should override a trim adjustment
    - stupid lack of proper simulator training

    I'm pretty sure the FAA will crack the whip on Boeing and there will be a retro-fit out by next week, but that doesn't mean much to all the people who died.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by kab123 View Post
    Airliners as well? Forgive my ignorance, I am not a pilot, but this just sounds like a pure technical training issue?

    It almost seems like there was an assumption that a 737-800 pilot would be able to pilot a MAX8 with very little additional training even though they are quite different aircraft

    Almost like "hey I see you flew a A340, here have this A350".

    Before Lion air very few pilots were aware of MCAS. After Lion air only one airliner from South America (their name eludes me now), bothered to retraining pilots on MCAS.

    FAA in the US recons the plane is safe. I recon with a properly trained pilot they are..
    From what I have read here and in other places, the Pilots instinct and training is to pull the yoke when the nose dips suddenly which would cancel and electronic aids RE Trim. In the case of the Max 8 the MCAS it does not do this - The MCAS software is under the impression that the yoke is alreaty at full pull and therefore feels it need to correct the nose down in order to avoid a stall.

    The pilots need to switch off with a switch first then pull the yoke.

    Its like driving a car and your cars smart software decides to steer suddenly to the left. Your immediate reflex reaction would be to counter steer it correct. Imagine first you have to press a switch on the dash before your reflexes can react.

    Thats how Im understanding it.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Karol View Post
    From what I have read here and in other places, the Pilots instinct and training is to pull the yoke when the nose dips suddenly which would cancel and electronic aids RE Trim. In the case of the Max 8 the MCAS it does not do this - The MCAS software is under the impression that the yoke is alreaty at full pull and therefore feels it need to correct the nose down in order to avoid a stall.

    The pilots need to switch off with a switch first then pull the yoke.

    Its like driving a car and your cars smart software decides to steer suddenly to the left. Your immediate reflex reaction would be to counter steer it correct. Imagine first you have to press a switch on the dash before your reflexes can react.

    Thats how Im understanding it.
    yep

    the trim software overrides the pilot input
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by kab123 View Post
    Airliners as well? Forgive my ignorance, I am not a pilot, but this just sounds like a pure technical training issue?

    It almost seems like there was an assumption that a 737-800 pilot would be able to pilot a MAX8 with very little additional training even though they are quite different aircraft

    Almost like "hey I see you flew a A340, here have this A350".

    Before Lion air very few pilots were aware of MCAS. After Lion air only one airliner from South America (their name eludes me now), bothered to retraining pilots on MCAS.

    FAA in the US recons the plane is safe. I recon with a properly trained pilot they are..
    Quite true. Seems like Boeing has sort of slipped this MCAS in silently. Hence nobody really took note of it and pilot training wasn't sufficient.

    Type commonality is a big thing in the aviation industry. As a pilot you need to have a so called type rating for every type of aircraft you want to operate. Type of aircraft in this sense are e.g B737, A320, B787, A330, etc. Every type rating costs around U$ 20-30k and takes about 3-4 weeks. The airline needs to train abut 4-6 sets of crew per aircraft they operate (not type of aircraft, but physical aircraft they operate). That means for every aircraftft you see at an airport, between 8 and 12 pilots have been trained @ U$25k + travel allowances for 3-4 weeks, plus the cost of these pilots not creating revenue for the airline (doing their job a s in flying passengers).
    It's a big cost factor for the airline industry.
    From the first B737 until the 737 Max now, the type rating has been the same, B737. The -200, -300, -800, -Max are variants. Very little training is required, essentially just a so called differences training, which is a few hours in the class room and maybe 1 or 2 simulator sessions. This is the main reason why Boeing hasn't developed an entirely new clean sheet replacement for the B737 yet but continues to stretch the old design further and further.

    This is where Airbus came in with a huge advantage, back in the days. Every new airbus type is developed in such a manner, that even though it incorporates new systems it has got enough commonality with the rest of the airbus family that once a pilot is Airbus rated, he doesn't have to do an entirely new rating for another airbus type. E.g. a pilot rated on an A320 (regional / medium range) he can do a so CCQ Cross Crew Qualification in order to get a rating for another Airbus type, let's say an A350 (wide body, long haul). THis CCQ takes only 7 days, a 3rd or 4th of the time a full type rating would take.

    Considering the popularity of the older B737 models, it would be huge expense for airlines around the world to all of a sudden having to fork out the money and send their pilots to be trained on a new type of Boeing regional / medium range airliner.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    Quite true. Seems like Boeing has sort of slipped this MCAS in silently. Hence nobody really took note of it and pilot training wasn't sufficient.

    Type commonality is a big thing in the aviation industry. As a pilot you need to have a so called type rating for every type of aircraft you want to operate. Type of aircraft in this sense are e.g B737, A320, B787, A330, etc. Every type rating costs around U$ 20-30k and takes about 3-4 weeks. The airline needs to train abut 4-6 sets of crew per aircraft they operate (not type of aircraft, but physical aircraft they operate). That means for every aircraftft you see at an airport, between 8 and 12 pilots have been trained @ U$25k + travel allowances for 3-4 weeks, plus the cost of these pilots not creating revenue for the airline (doing their job a s in flying passengers).
    It's a big cost factor for the airline industry.
    From the first B737 until the 737 Max now, the type rating has been the same, B737. The -200, -300, -800, -Max are variants. Very little training is required, essentially just a so called differences training, which is a few hours in the class room and maybe 1 or 2 simulator sessions. This is the main reason why Boeing hasn't developed an entirely new clean sheet replacement for the B737 yet but continues to stretch the old design further and further.

    This is where Airbus came in with a huge advantage, back in the days. Every new airbus type is developed in such a manner, that even though it incorporates new systems it has got enough commonality with the rest of the airbus family that once a pilot is Airbus rated, he doesn't have to do an entirely new rating for another airbus type. E.g. a pilot rated on an A320 (regional / medium range) he can do a so CCQ Cross Crew Qualification in order to get a rating for another Airbus type, let's say an A350 (wide body, long haul). THis CCQ takes only 7 days, a 3rd or 4th of the time a full type rating would take.

    Considering the popularity of the older B737 models, it would be huge expense for airlines around the world to all of a sudden having to fork out the money and send their pilots to be trained on a new type of Boeing regional / medium range airliner.
    Are you saying airlines can't be expected to train pilots on new aircraft because of the cost? What next, they did the maths and it's cheaper to just pay for the funerals of the passengers that die as a result of the odd crash caused because they can't afford training?
    Last edited by petermoffat; 2019/03/13 at 08:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by petermoffat View Post
    So you're saying airlines can't be expected to train pilots on new aircraft because of the cost? What next, they did the maths and it's cheaper to just pay for the funerals of the passengers that die as a result of the odd crash caused because they can't afford training?
    Besides that, the lost revenue is going to be massive, I wonder if Boeing will be called out on this at some stage??
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Anyhow seems like they delayed the the 777X reveal. Aiii

    Looking forward to the GE9X spoil up videos
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by kab123 View Post
    FAA in the US recons the plane is safe. I recon with a properly trained pilot they are..
    Not so sure about this, once MCAS kicks in you are on your own.

    Seems that MCAS has only kicked in twice, presumably due to faulty sensors, but I am not so sure that those high and mighty US pilots will be able to control this if it happens to them, in spite of what they say.

    This also seems to be the view of all the airline authorities in the rest of the world (outside US).

    And the British, Germans, French, Chinese, etc, are not that stupid, they know what is going on.
    Last edited by Jola; 2019/03/13 at 09:27 AM.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Help me here, I've read somewhere that a eye witness saw smoke coming from the back of the plane as it was fallin.

    What does the MCAS have to do with it? Is the MCAS fault that the pilot could not recover from the plane going down because of another problem or what?

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by HannesS View Post
    Help me here, I've read somewhere that a eye witness saw smoke coming from the back of the plane as it was fallin.

    What does the MCAS have to do with it? Is the MCAS fault that the pilot could not recover from the plane going down because of another problem or what?
    Well a engine flame-out can produce a lot of smoke as well.

    Eye witness accounts of plane crashes are very iffy

    But yeah, we won't really know until the boxes have been analyzed

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by HannesS View Post
    Help me here, I've read somewhere that a eye witness saw smoke coming from the back of the plane as it was fallin.

    What does the MCAS have to do with it? Is the MCAS fault that the pilot could not recover from the plane going down because of another problem or what?
    Some experts say that if the engines are under stress, and/or at low altitude, they produce black smoke, so the plane was probably not on fire.

    I have seen videos of this phenomenon myself, so I tend to believe it.

    If you look at the altitude graph of the plane it seems clear that it was a classic MCAS incident.

    But they should be checking the recorders soon, that will reveal all.

    The Europeans, Australians, Chinese, etc Air Authorities all seem to think that it was something fishy (ie MCAS), and they probably have more information than we do.



    Last edited by Jola; 2019/03/13 at 10:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    New york times - interesting

    By The New York Times









    • At least two pilots, flying United States routes on the same model of Boeing jet involved in two recent crashes, filed incident reports with the federal government that raised concerns about safety and criticized a lack of training on the new plane, the Boeing 737 Max 8.
    • Much of the world, including the European Union, China and India — but not the United States — has banned flights of the Boeing 737 Max 8 since a crash on Sunday in Ethiopia killed more than 150 people, the second such crash in the past six months.
    • The Canadian carrier Sunwing became the first airline in Canada or the United States to suspend operations of the plane, though it said it had not done so for safety reasons.


    • Investigators are still waiting for information from Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302’s voice and data recorders, which were recovered from the crash site on Monday. The airline’s chief executive, interviewed by CNN, said the pilots had told air traffic control they were having “flight control problems.”


    Pilots on U.S. routes had reported concerns about the Max 8

    At least two pilots who flew Boeing 737 Max 8 planes on routes in the United States had raised concerns in November about the noses of their planes suddenly dipping after engaging autopilot, according to a federal government database of incident reports.


    The problems the pilots experienced appeared similar to those preceding the October crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia, in which 189 people were killed. The cause of that crash remains under investigation, but it is believed that inaccurate readings fed into the Max 8’s computerized system may have made the plane enter a sudden, automatic descent.

    In both of the American cases, the pilots safely resumed their climbs after turning off autopilot. One of the pilots said the descent began two to three seconds after turning on the automated system.
    “I reviewed in my mind our automation setup and flight profile but can’t think of any reason the aircraft would pitch nose down so aggressively,” the pilot wrote.


    A pilot on a separate flight reported in November a similar descent and hearing the same warnings in the cockpit, and said neither of the pilots on board were able to find an inappropriate setup.
    “With the concerns with the MAX 8 nose down stuff, we both thought it appropriate to bring it to your attention,” the pilot said.
    The complaints were listed in a public database maintained by NASA and filled with thousands of reports, which pilots file when they encounter errors or issues. The database does not include identifying information on the flights, including airline, the pilot’s name or the location.
    Another pilot wrote that they had been given insufficient training to fly the Max 8, a new, more fuel-efficient version of Boeing’s best-selling 737.
    “I think it is unconscionable that a manufacturer, the F.A.A., and the airlines would have pilots flying an airplane without adequately training, or even providing available resources and sufficient documentation to understand the highly complex systems that differentiate this aircraft from prior models,” the pilot wrote.



    The cockpit of a Jet Airways Boeing 737 Max 8. Two fatal Max 8 crashes in five months have led to intense scrutiny of the aircraft.CreditAbhirup Roy/Reuters






    Image


    pilot continued: “I am left to wonder: what else don’t I know? The Flight Manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient.”


    Boeing has said the planes are safe to fly, but has pledged to upgrade their software and improve pilot training. News of the incident reports was reported by the Dallas Morning News and confirmed by The New York Times.



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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by petermoffat View Post
    Are you saying airlines can't be expected to train pilots on new aircraft because of the cost? What next, they did the maths and it's cheaper to just pay for the funerals of the passengers that die as a result of the odd crash caused because they can't afford training?
    Don't know where you read that. I explained the manufacturer's incentive to keep training costs down, as that is a major selling point when it comes to airline company's decision which aircraft to choose when modernizing their fleet.

    Really weird comment...
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by petermoffat View Post
    Are you saying airlines can't be expected to train pilots on new aircraft because of the cost? What next, they did the maths and it's cheaper to just pay for the funerals of the passengers that die as a result of the odd crash caused because they can't afford training?
    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    Don't know where you read that. I explained the manufacturer's incentive to keep training costs down, as that is a major selling point when it comes to airline company's decision which aircraft to choose when modernizing their fleet.

    Really weird comment...
    I think you guys are at crossed purposes!

    As I understand ( and being subject to correction)-

    B737 early variants before the 737Max had developed with various upgrades and re-engineering -(13 variants of the 737 have been produced to date)

    This particular upgrade for the 737 Max required software to correct an undesirable handling characteristic that arose out of the upgrade modifications ( something that may be allowable with an existing certified aircraft? -but not with a new one?)

    Boeing, -it seems, somehow, perhaps or perhaps not knowingly, manipulated the FAA process for certification of the Max to allow some easier/cheaper route than may have been required to certify a new 'type' , rather than a 'variant' -this will have implications for buyers of the aircraft -in respect of 'training upgrade' regime -as outlined in earlier posts -total price package for running the Max thus remains lower-and the accountants smile and airlines shareholders smile!

    Peter, I think Hugo was just outlining the probable train of events -not supporting the idea!
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    I'm probably grossly over simplifying things. It would seem a line has been crossed.

    To be honest, I feel more comfortable driving my Tdi 300 than most modern computerised cars. Why? because I am still in complete control.

    Things like 'Active City Stop' just annoy me, to put it mildly.

    Driving the Fiesta, I approached a hedge head on the other day at a calculated (by me) speed with the intention of parking in front of it, but the brakes were applied automatically, and too soon, the cars computer thinking I didn't know what I was doing. What the computer didn't know is I was driving on wet grass, so the car actually slid a bit, even with ABS, too much brake force too soon. It scared me. 25 years of accident free driving experience and a computer now takes over? No, just no.

    No hedges were harmed, this time.
    Last edited by Naes-Landy; 2019/03/13 at 01:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    Don't know where you read that. I explained the manufacturer's incentive to keep training costs down, as that is a major selling point when it comes to airline company's decision which aircraft to choose when modernizing their fleet.

    Really weird comment...
    I wasn't digging at you, but the fact that the expense of training should somehow be an incentive to find workarounds to make it cheaper, which it seems has now lead to a poor understanding of the new system, and potentially two major incidents. It is bizarre to me that money would be the reason a few hundred people have now died on these planes.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    Boeing, -it seems, somehow, perhaps or perhaps not knowingly, manipulated the FAA process for certification of the Max to allow some easier/cheaper route than may have been required to certify a new 'type' , rather than a 'variant' -this will have implications for buyers of the aircraft -in respect of 'training upgrade' regime -as outlined in earlier posts -total price package for running the Max thus remains lower-and the accountants smile and airlines shareholders smile!
    Boeing and the FAA will catch alot of flack for allowing this shortcut, even it only Lion accident is attributed to their interpretation of the need for certification or not based on the changes made.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Naes-Landy View Post
    I'm probably grossly over simplifying things. It would seem a line has been crossed.

    To be honest, I feel more comfortable driving my Tdi 300 than most modern computerised cars. Why? because I am still in complete control.

    Things like 'Active City Stop' just annoy me, to put it mildly.

    Driving the Fiesta, I approached a hedge head on the other day at a calculated (by me) speed with the intention of parking in front of it, but the brakes were applied automatically, and too soon, the cars computer thinking I didn't know what I was doing. What the computer didn't know is I was driving on wet grass, so the car actually slid a bit, even with ABS, too much brake force too soon. It scared me. 25 years of accident free driving experience and a computer now takes over? No, just no.

    No hedges were harmed, this time.
    I thought I was the only one with this exeperience!
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