Ethiopian Airlines Crash





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  1. #1
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    Default Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Flight ET302 crashes 6 minutes after take off this morning. The same aircraft left OR Tambo at 23h35 last night and arrived safely in Addis Ababa this morning just after 5am Addis time. Was turned around for the Nairobi flight.

    This same aircraft over ran the runway at Entebbe Airport in Uganda a few weeks ago.

    Condolences to all family members of those on board.
    Last edited by Caracal; 2019/03/10 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Spelling
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Only about 4 months old.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel 4x4 View Post
    Only about 4 months old.
    Yep, delivered to the airline in October 2018
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    Default Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Caracal View Post
    Yep, delivered to the airline in October 2018
    Second one actually. Didn’t a 737 nose dive as well?
    Last edited by Rebel 4x4; 2019/03/10 at 02:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    It could have been anything, although I'm sure there's a lot of speculation already. I hope the facts will be known soon.

    Swambo and I have flown with them a few times. Whatever the case, we are likely fly back to SA with them in a few months time, mostly because we want to see the new airport, but also because of the level of service.

    In Dec 2016 we landed late in Addis on route from Brussels to Johannesburg. Instead of shuttling us from the plane to the (old, cramped and slow) terminal, they bussed all passengers with connecting flights direct to the waiting planes, or we would have missed our onward flights. We watched our luggage in the little train thingy follow next to the bus. We arrived in JNB on time. Do things like this once and you score major points with passengers like us. I have to wonder how many airports/airlines would do this?

    And yes, I think it's safe to say air travel is till one of the safest modes of transport. It might seem otherwise because of all the media attention plane crashes get.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Some interesting vertical speed info on Sam Chui's site.

    https://samchui.com/2019/03/10/ethio.../#.XIUC2bnRaDY

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    737 MAX. We will see what was the cause but vertical speed issues = Lion Air crash.

    BBC said that they added this nose down software after making the plane longer and Boeing was worried about the stability. All speculation now. Hopefully they sort this out quickly. I have retired pilot/captain in the family. Spoken many times to him. Some of his colleagues point blank refused to fly "computer controlled" planes. "Wires" to the control surfaces Such doesn't work today.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko View Post
    737 MAX. We will see what was the cause but vertical speed issues = Lion Air crash.

    BBC said that they added this nose down software after making the plane longer and Boeing was worried about the stability. All speculation now. Hopefully they sort this out quickly. I have retired pilot/captain in the family. Spoken many times to him. Some of his colleagues point blank refused to fly "computer controlled" planes. "Wires" to the control surfaces Such doesn't work today.
    Sorry to be the one to tell you that all commercial aircraft now operate on fly by wire technology. If a pilot will only fly cable controlled aircraft he will be flying 1960's vintage aircraft, most of which are operated by the very dodgy airlines. Old generation aircraft are banned from operating in most places due to noise abatement legislation. I'll be following the accident investigation on this one again as it's part of my job description to do accident investigation.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko View Post
    737 MAX. We will see what was the cause but vertical speed issues = Lion Air crash.

    BBC said that they added this nose down software after making the plane longer and Boeing was worried about the stability. All speculation now. Hopefully they sort this out quickly. I have retired pilot/captain in the family. Spoken many times to him. Some of his colleagues point blank refused to fly "computer controlled" planes. "Wires" to the control surfaces Such doesn't work today.
    What is called 'fly-by-wire' means, as I understand, ' fly-by-electroservo-controlled-control-surface-movements' ie. 'fly by electric wire'-not 'fly by wire-rope/cable controlled surfaces'

    The controversial issue among pilots is regarding the degrees of autonomy these electronic controls excercise -ie. is the pilot actually able to override the computer controlled inputs, or does the computer finally decide on inputs to control surfaces.

    I would guess that most-if not all, commercial regional/long-haul aircraft nowadays have some level of fly-by-wire controls - physical wire rope/cables to control surfaces would be limited to smaller/much older aircraft.

    It seems the MCAS system necessity( technically detailed in link below) -was primarily as a result of the dynamic changes to flight characteristics caused by the introduction of a new engine in the upgraded model 737, thus new nacelle + positioning on wing of engine, thus altered the lift characteristics and control surfaces reactions.

    Essentially-the new engine design/details caused the traditional 737 to develop a nose-up bias compared to older generation 737 with traditional engine nacelle/positioning -the MCAS was supposed to 'assist' the pilot by autonomously 'correcting' the pitch angle ( by adjusting elevator trim) if the nose-up attitude tended towards stall angle -except, the pilot had to manually override this system-by working the elevator trim tab manually ( by cranking a wheel/cable -not sure if this is a fly-by-wire, or mechanical control) pilot could NOT deactivate MCAS by using electric trim control

    -this arrangement of override only by secondary control system, not primary and secondary- by would seem a bit illogical to me -if I were Boeing/FAA

    https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...em-mcas-jt610/


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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Caracal View Post
    ...Was turned around for the Nairobi flight...
    What is this about?
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by ZuluCowboy View Post
    What is this about?
    Meaning plane was cleaned and refueled for the flight to Nairobi. Usually called the “turn around” when a plane lands then made ready to fly to its next destination. Not a fundi, but heard the term used alot by pilots and crew members before
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Even the quite new B737 Max isn’t yet fly-by-wire. It builds on a rather old design and still shares systems and components with its great grandfather, the B737-200.

    The system in question simply trims the elevator or stabilizer trim nose down, causing forces on the control column the pilots can’t overcome.

    In older airplanes something similar could happen, called a trim runaway, essentially a malfunction of the trim.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Took delivery of 2 planes around 2 weeks ago. Currently flying in SA with BA branding...

    The type of Boeing that crashed in Ethiopia and Indonesia is still flying in South Africa

    https://www.businessinsider.co.za/co...-planes-2019-3

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Interesting....yet China has stopped all there Max fleet, not taking chances.

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    Flipping funny how there is such negative comments of fly by wire systems as a whole

    Proper fly by wire systems is actually incredibly safe and provides higher redundancy than the older systems

    Plus fly by wire is actually capable of doing things to keep the plane in the air where a normal pilot could not do so. (and no this is not a comment against normal pilots)

    Which is also why it is used on modern Fighter jets because those planes are designed to be unstable
    The reason for that is that the instability makes them more maneuverable and able to react quickly
    But almost impossible for a pilot to handle because they would need to make thousands upon thousands of adjustment constantly.

    If you look back at theF16 it use to be normal flight systems
    They then moved to fly by wire which improved the planes maneuverability to a massive extent

    While in the airline industry those system creates additional backups to handle various failures and allow the planes to fly when things are technically already catastrophic.

    Obviously there have been issues with those as with all technology but the amount is very very low
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    (CNN)Airlines in multiple countries have suspended the use of Boeing's new 737 MAX 8 aircraft over concerns about its safety, after an Ethiopian Airlines flight of the same model crashed Sunday killing all 157 on board.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Veneficus View Post
    Flipping funny how there is such negative comments of fly by wire systems as a whole

    Proper fly by wire systems is actually incredibly safe and provides higher redundancy than the older systems

    Plus fly by wire is actually capable of doing things to keep the plane in the air where a normal pilot could not do so. (and no this is not a comment against normal pilots)

    Which is also why it is used on modern Fighter jets because those planes are designed to be unstable
    The reason for that is that the instability makes them more maneuverable and able to react quickly
    But almost impossible for a pilot to handle because they would need to make thousands upon thousands of adjustment constantly.

    If you look back at theF16 it use to be normal flight systems
    They then moved to fly by wire which improved the planes maneuverability to a massive extent

    While in the airline industry those system creates additional backups to handle various failures and allow the planes to fly when things are technically already catastrophic.

    Obviously there have been issues with those as with all technology but the amount is very very low
    I think the controversy regards the issue of system autonomy-not regarding the systems themselves -pilots are surely very happy to have systems to reduce workloads in the cockpit-but they want to be able to exercise ultimate authority when they deem necessary-something as simple as an iced over pitot could lead to catastrophe-as, I believe, was the case with the Air France Atlantic Ocean crash some years ago.

    Incidentally-the 737 Max seems, by reports, to be 'inherently unstable' since its reconfiguration and update.

    -it is not allowable to certify an inherently unstable commercial aircraft that relies on software to correct the instability -Boeing seem, at perfunctory readings, to have done just this -in a roundabout way so that certification of the aircraft was possible.

    I expect,with some 5700 orders on the books for the 737Max, Boeing will be rushing about like crazy right now!

    Military aircraft are another kettle of fish entirely, and there computerised systems are an absolute necessity nowadays.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    I think the controversy regards the issue of system autonomy-not regarding the systems themselves -pilots are surely very happy to have systems to reduce workloads in the cockpit-but they want to be able to exercise ultimate authority when they deem necessary-something as simple as an iced over pitot could lead to catastrophe-as, I believe, was the case with the Air France Atlantic Ocean crash some years ago.

    Incidentally-the 737 Max seems, by reports, to be 'inherently unstable' since its reconfiguration and update.

    -it is not allowable to certify an inherently unstable commercial aircraft that relies on software to correct the instability -Boeing seem, at perfunctory readings, to have done just this -in a roundabout way so that certification of the aircraft was possible.

    I expect,with some 5700 orders on the books for the 737Max, Boeing will be rushing about like crazy right now!

    Military aircraft are another kettle of fish entirely, and there computerised systems are an absolute necessity nowadays.
    I agree all I was saying is that it is not the fly by wire in itself

    The previous crash appears to have happened because the pilots did not know the correct way to bypass the faulty readings
    And once again it was not caused by a single failure it was multiple issues that combined and then lead to the crash (and that plane should not have been allowed to fly in that state)

    And then the pilots lack of training on putting the system in an manual control state

    We will see what happened here and sad for the families who lost people
    Last edited by Veneficus; 2019/03/11 at 11:42 AM.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47514289
    How the plane differed from previous model
    Jakarta-based aviation analyst Gerry Soejatman told the BBC the 737 Max's "engine is a bit further forward and a bit higher in relation to the wing, compared to the previous version of the plane. That affects the balance of the plane".


    The Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee indicated that Lion Air flight 610 experienced "erroneous input" from one of its sensors designed to alert pilots if the aeroplane is at risk of stalling.


    The inquiry has not yet reached any final conclusions about the cause of the disaster.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    Incidentally-the 737 Max seems, by reports, to be 'inherently unstable' since its reconfiguration and update.

    -it is not allowable to certify an inherently unstable commercial aircraft that relies on software to correct the instability -Boeing seem, at perfunctory readings, to have done just this -in a roundabout way so that certification of the aircraft was possible.

    Yes, this seems to be the crux of the matter.

    Boeing got away with it because the majority of the plane is similar to previous generations.

    But Boeing did not do a proper job, it seems.

    There have been suggestions that some of the new sensors sometimes fail.

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