Ethiopian Airlines Crash - Page 8





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  1. #141
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by kab123 View Post
    https://airlinegeeks.com/2019/03/13/...x-controversy/

    Award reveal it was, but that is a damn fine piece of kit.

    Hopefully it'll stay in the air
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  2. #142
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by eloffmare View Post
    What do you mean by this??
    But will it fly?
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    They should have been more pro-active after the first 737 Max crash
    And done what, exactly?
    I'm not being argumentative, I am genuinely curious as to WHAT they should have done beyond what they did.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnoK View Post
    And done what, exactly?
    I'm not being argumentative, I am genuinely curious as to WHAT they should have done beyond what they did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    They should perhaps have issued an urgent and compulsory directive to ensure all pilots of 737 Max worldwide were properly informed and trained on the new system-?
    "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence."

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  5. #145
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    As far as I know a training directive was issued after the Lion Air crash. Apparently the Ethiopian pilots were trained accordingly.
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  7. #146
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobus80 View Post
    As far as I know a training directive was issued after the Lion Air crash. Apparently the Ethiopian pilots were trained accordingly.
    I would hope this is true- it remains to be seen who in the chain of manufacturer/certification authority/operator/regulator may have failed -if at all.
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  8. #147
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Nys View Post
    I've not read every post. Is there an explanation of why the planes crashed?

    So while on takeoff, the MCAS software decides the plane's angle of attack exceeds a certain threshold and pushes it down. Pilots don't expect this, so pulls back on the yoke. MCAS increases it's input, countered by more aggressive pilot input. Does this go on until a stall is reached? Or why does the plane get out of control?

    Surely at some stage the stall warning will sound which will force the pilots to adopt a nose down angle to increase speed/lift? Or is the altitude such that there is no time?

    From what I understand is that the MCAS is pushing the nose down assuming an imminent stall and corrects.
    The pilot counteracts and pushes the nose up again, but MCAS is insisting in it correction and pushes down again.
    This gets on until:

    - the pilot losses the battle against the computer and the plane nosedives into the ground or

    - the pilot disengages the MCAS (as per addition in the op manual) and corrects the horizontal stabilizer with the electrical trip switch or

    - the pilot wrestles against the computer and manages to correct the MCAS inputs until the plane has reached enough speed and correct AoA so MACS stops corrections, This would mean enough altitude and time to do so.

    Apparently Boeing has issued an amendment to the OP manual that the MCAS can be neutralised and the plane flown manually.

    Addition:
    The MCAS will disallow autopilot function and if on AP it will disconnect.

    All in all a bit of a complex patch when the pilots are taken by surprise orit happens unexpectedly.
    Last edited by Kalahari Safari; 2019/03/14 at 02:48 PM.
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  10. #148
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    I recommend this 13 minute Youtube, posted by an actual B737 pilot, which has left me absolutely clear about every technical detail of the AOA sensors, the MCAS system etc.

    He is also very clear that a Bulletin was issued about the MCAS system. As a 737 pilot, he would know.

    The strange thing is that this was posted in November 2018, in response to the LionAir crash, and yet I had to check the date to be sure about that!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfQW0upkVus
    Last edited by RodS; 2019/03/14 at 05:13 PM. Reason: omitted link added

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  12. #149
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by RodS View Post
    I recommend this 13 minute Youtube, posted by an actual B737 pilot, which has left me absolutely clear about every technical detail of the AOA sensors, the MCAS system etc.

    He is also very clear that a Bulletin was issued about the MCAS system. As a 737 pilot, he would know.

    The strange thing is that this was posted in November 2018, in response to the LionAir crash, and yet I had to check the date to be sure about that!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfQW0upkVus
    I think I have watched just about every one of his video's.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Interesting reports.Reading those reports it is quite worrying that in several instances neither of the 2 pilots felt competent and settled in the new 737 MAX, crews were rushing through manuals just before the flight.
    One report even sounds like the crew have never been trained on the Max in the sim but just received some self study material.
    It should be good practice, if not a requirement, that any pilot must fly a certain amount of sectors / hours with a training captain in order to settle in the new cockpit layout.
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  18. #154
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    Interesting reports.Reading those reports it is quite worrying that in several instances neither of the 2 pilots felt competent and settled in the new 737 MAX, crews were rushing through manuals just before the flight.
    One report even sounds like the crew have never been trained on the Max in the sim but just received some self study material.
    It should be good practice, if not a requirement, that any pilot must fly a certain amount of sectors / hours with a training captain in order to settle in the new cockpit layout.
    I would have thought airline's or their insurers would make this kind of thing compulsory, especially considering these planes are probably worth well over a billion rand and nevermind the passenger liability if they were found to be negligent in their pilot training.

  19. #155
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    I am not at all savvy on these sort of things, but if it was an issue with the nose up or down etc why did the pilot request to return to the airport when he was fighting the controls. I would have thought that he would not have had any time to make the request.
    An eye witness states that they saw clothes etc coming out of the plane before it crash? Maybe some cargo at the rear broke loose spilling out suitcases etc causing an imbalance?
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  20. #156
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfer01 View Post
    I am not at all savvy on these sort of things, but if it was an issue with the nose up or down etc why did the pilot request to return to the airport when he was fighting the controls. I would have thought that he would not have had any time to make the request.
    An eye witness states that they saw clothes etc coming out of the plane before it crash? Maybe some cargo at the rear broke loose spilling out suitcases etc causing an imbalance?
    In a situation like this, pilots generally revert to very deeply engrained and established sequenced procedures and actions that they have learned through studies, simulator training and flying hours.

    On one hand , they are running through various checklists to isolate the problem, on the other, they are doing the most important and immediate action-keeping the aircraft flying.

    Once they felt that some attention could be given to communications, they could easily do so, since they are in any case always in radio contact/ ready for radio contact -especially at early stage in flight.

    Headsets are worn, and the 'PushToTalk' button is usually right in the centre of the control column -so one can keep hands on control at all times.


    There is one primary mnemonic that pilots use in emergencies-

    'ANC'

    -the procedure being-

    Aviate -to keep the aircraft flying,
    Navigate -to determine your position and intended heading/destination
    Communicate -to notify of your distress and intentions, and seek/request assistance as possible

    What the pilot did in this instance in requesting to return was good procedure, since it would have alerted the control tower who could then activate emergency services.


    As for the eyewitness reports-yes, there have been reports of smoke and debris -it will be interesting to know what this was once investigation is complete -indeed possible that cargo could have fallen out- highly unlikely I would think-

    perhaps some possibility of engine/component failure leading to smoke/debris?-possibly even that the stabilizer/elevator ( which are the flying surface under scrutiny via MCAS) broke up through excessive aerodynamic forces/direct forces applied by MCAS/pilot/extreme flight attitude. I understand the specific screwjack operating the stabiliser trim has been found, and its condition points to it being in the position which would have caused nose-down pitch.
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  22. #157
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    In a situation like this, pilots generally revert to very deeply engrained and established sequenced procedures and actions that they have learned through studies, simulator training and flying hours.

    On one hand , they are running through various checklists to isolate the problem, on the other, they are doing the most important and immediate action-keeping the aircraft flying.

    Once they felt that some attention could be given to communications, they could easily do so, since they are in any case always in radio contact/ ready for radio contact -especially at early stage in flight.

    Headsets are worn, and the 'PushToTalk' button is usually right in the centre of the control column -so one can keep hands on control at all times.


    There is one primary mnemonic that pilots use in emergencies-

    'ANC'

    -the procedure being-

    Aviate -to keep the aircraft flying,
    Navigate -to determine your position and intended heading/destination
    Communicate -to notify of your distress and intentions, and seek/request assistance as possible

    What the pilot did in this instance in requesting to return was good procedure, since it would have alerted the control tower who could then activate emergency services.


    As for the eyewitness reports-yes, there have been reports of smoke and debris -it will be interesting to know what this was once investigation is complete -indeed possible that cargo could have fallen out- highly unlikely I would think-

    perhaps some possibility of engine/component failure leading to smoke/debris?-possibly even that the stabilizer/elevator ( which are the flying surface under scrutiny via MCAS) broke up through excessive aerodynamic forces/direct forces applied by MCAS/pilot/extreme flight attitude. I understand the specific screwjack operating the stabiliser trim has been found, and its condition points to it being in the position which would have caused nose-down pitch.
    I thought Communicate was the communication between the Pilot and the First Officer. One does the flying, the other gives him feedback on what is going on - instruments etc. There is no reason to speak to ATC when you bum is on fire in a dive.
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  23. #158
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    I thought Communicate was the communication between the Pilot and the First Officer. One does the flying, the other gives him feedback on what is going on - instruments etc. There is no reason to speak to ATC when you bum is on fire in a dive.
    There should be communication between Captain/co-pilot/s as a matter of course

    -this communication in the mnemonic refers specifically to sequential course of action during an emergency.

    There is very good reason to speak to ATC once other actions are done/underway!

    They will, not least, bring a bucket of water for your flaming bum when you finally do land -hopefully a live,flaming bum!
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  25. #159
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    There should be communication between Captain/co-pilot/s as a matter of course

    -this communication in the mnemonic refers specifically to sequential course of action during an emergency. My point exactly.

    There is very good reason to speak to ATC once other actions are done/underway!

    They will, not least, bring a bucket of water for your flaming bum when you finally do land -hopefully a live,flaming bum!
    That sequential course of action has to do with communication between the pilot and the first officer AFAIK. Telling ATC that you are at full power and the flaps and the wheels are down isn't going to help. This is in an emergency.

    Obviously you are going to be negotiating air space and landing instructions when you can, but I don't believe that is part of ANC.

    My understanding of ANC is that it a SOP not an emergency procedure.

    Just saying.
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  26. #160
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    That sequential course of action has to do with communication between the pilot and the first officer AFAIK. Telling ATC that you are at full power and the flaps and the wheels are down isn't going to help. This is in an emergency.

    Obviously you are going to be negotiating air space and landing instructions when you can, but I don't believe that is part of ANC.

    My understanding of ANC is that it a SOP not an emergency procedure.

    Just saying.
    I don't know why you have to argue with Patrick about something this simple and well known to pilots: almost everybody who has done at least a private pilot license would know AVIATE - NAVIGATE - COMMUNICATE.
    It applies to multi crew operations as well as to single crew operation, if you are sitting in your Cessna 172, very often there is no first officer. Still it applies.
    ANC shows the hierarchy of importance, first fly the aircraft, then make sure where you are going and lastly, let someone know.

    Communication between pilots in an multicrew environment is a given, it is supposed to happen while these three basics are being worked through. Would be pretty bad if one guy sits there silently waiting his turn to speak, while the other has got his hands full trying to fly a possibly crippled aircraft and find his way back home.

    And no, ANC is most certainly not an emergency procedure, it is a philosophy that is supposed to be applied constantly. Be it a full blown emergency, be it a momentary loss of situational awareness, or some guy sitting alone in his Cessna trying to figure out where on the map he is.

    By the way, First Officers are pilots, too.
    Last edited by HugoNotte; 2019/03/15 at 04:24 PM.
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