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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Hasn't Comair just announced the purchase of the 737 Max? the fact that this is the second crash in 6 months may put a damper on that order?
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko View Post
    I did word my comment poorly. These older pilots wanted to fly the plane and not the computer. Airline in question used to fly DC9 and DC10 plus their later MD series. Then airline changed to Airbus planes. I suspect Aibus was too much for them.

    I might remember wrong but 737 may have 707 body parts so to say.

    Hopefully they sort out this quickly. There are over 5000 planes on order.

    Use of computers is an issue. It is not only planes but cars also. Computers in the cars override what the driver is doing. That program better be right. I am still trying to find a computer program that is right. Humans make also mistakes. Is it sufficient if the program is better than average pilot or driver?
    As pilots we are control freaks. We do't like control being taken away from us. Hence the sentiment of many pilots against Airbus. Airbus are marvelous pieces of technology, specially if you look at when the Airbus fly by wire technology was developed. For an old school pilot, the whole philosophy of Airbus' pilot interaction with the machine is rather different compared to that of other companies.

    E.g. Embraer's Ejet also got fly by wire technology, however the philosophy around it is vastly different and it still feels like flying a conventional aircraft, with some enhancements.

    And yes, 99% of the time a good computer program is better than a human pilot. It's the 1% of the time, when things go wrong, that the pilot is required to correct the situation.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Here are links to two interesting articles on the Boeing 737 MAX pertaining to the Lion Air crash a few months back.
    There are a lot of similarities between the two crashes so this could be very relevant to this crash.
    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/28/o...end/index.html
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/03/w...sh-pilots.html
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Just as an aside to this type of Boeing, failure stats. Its scary to think that most failures fall into the Random category with Infant Mortality sitting at 68%. It is possible that this could be due to, while extremely rare, Infant Mortality although with the LION Air episode, the probability of it being related is now a lot higher than it was on Friday.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamtheman View Post
    Hasn't Comair just announced the purchase of the 737 Max? the fact that this is the second crash in 6 months may put a damper on that order?
    Yip, i read this as well. Cant afford to have any issues, hope they delay and wait a while perhaps?

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamtheman View Post
    Hasn't Comair just announced the purchase of the 737 Max? the fact that this is the second crash in 6 months may put a damper on that order?
    Quote Originally Posted by ezee rider View Post
    Yip, i read this as well. Cant afford to have any issues, hope they delay and wait a while perhaps?
    Yip....they should stick to the 737-800's

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Took delivery of 2 planes around 2 weeks ago. Currently flying in SA with BA branding...

    The type of Boeing that crashed in Ethiopia and Indonesia is still flying in South Africa

    https://www.businessinsider.co.za/co...-planes-2019-3

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Interesting....yet China has stopped all there Max fleet, not taking chances.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Flipping funny how there is such negative comments of fly by wire systems as a whole

    Proper fly by wire systems is actually incredibly safe and provides higher redundancy than the older systems

    Plus fly by wire is actually capable of doing things to keep the plane in the air where a normal pilot could not do so. (and no this is not a comment against normal pilots)

    Which is also why it is used on modern Fighter jets because those planes are designed to be unstable
    The reason for that is that the instability makes them more maneuverable and able to react quickly
    But almost impossible for a pilot to handle because they would need to make thousands upon thousands of adjustment constantly.

    If you look back at theF16 it use to be normal flight systems
    They then moved to fly by wire which improved the planes maneuverability to a massive extent

    While in the airline industry those system creates additional backups to handle various failures and allow the planes to fly when things are technically already catastrophic.

    Obviously there have been issues with those as with all technology but the amount is very very low
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    ; font-size: 18px; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254);">(CNN)Airlines in multiple countries have suspended the use of Boeing's new 737 MAX 8 aircraft over concerns about its safety, after an Ethiopian Airlines flight of the same model crashed Sunday killing all 157 on board.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Veneficus View Post
    Flipping funny how there is such negative comments of fly by wire systems as a whole

    Proper fly by wire systems is actually incredibly safe and provides higher redundancy than the older systems

    Plus fly by wire is actually capable of doing things to keep the plane in the air where a normal pilot could not do so. (and no this is not a comment against normal pilots)

    Which is also why it is used on modern Fighter jets because those planes are designed to be unstable
    The reason for that is that the instability makes them more maneuverable and able to react quickly
    But almost impossible for a pilot to handle because they would need to make thousands upon thousands of adjustment constantly.

    If you look back at theF16 it use to be normal flight systems
    They then moved to fly by wire which improved the planes maneuverability to a massive extent

    While in the airline industry those system creates additional backups to handle various failures and allow the planes to fly when things are technically already catastrophic.

    Obviously there have been issues with those as with all technology but the amount is very very low
    I think the controversy regards the issue of system autonomy-not regarding the systems themselves -pilots are surely very happy to have systems to reduce workloads in the cockpit-but they want to be able to exercise ultimate authority when they deem necessary-something as simple as an iced over pitot could lead to catastrophe-as, I believe, was the case with the Air France Atlantic Ocean crash some years ago.

    Incidentally-the 737 Max seems, by reports, to be 'inherently unstable' since its reconfiguration and update.

    -it is not allowable to certify an inherently unstable commercial aircraft that relies on software to correct the instability -Boeing seem, at perfunctory readings, to have done just this -in a roundabout way so that certification of the aircraft was possible.

    I expect,with some 5700 orders on the books for the 737Max, Boeing will be rushing about like crazy right now!

    Military aircraft are another kettle of fish entirely, and there computerised systems are an absolute necessity nowadays.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    I think the controversy regards the issue of system autonomy-not regarding the systems themselves -pilots are surely very happy to have systems to reduce workloads in the cockpit-but they want to be able to exercise ultimate authority when they deem necessary-something as simple as an iced over pitot could lead to catastrophe-as, I believe, was the case with the Air France Atlantic Ocean crash some years ago.

    Incidentally-the 737 Max seems, by reports, to be 'inherently unstable' since its reconfiguration and update.

    -it is not allowable to certify an inherently unstable commercial aircraft that relies on software to correct the instability -Boeing seem, at perfunctory readings, to have done just this -in a roundabout way so that certification of the aircraft was possible.

    I expect,with some 5700 orders on the books for the 737Max, Boeing will be rushing about like crazy right now!

    Military aircraft are another kettle of fish entirely, and there computerised systems are an absolute necessity nowadays.
    I agree all I was saying is that it is not the fly by wire in itself

    The previous crash appears to have happened because the pilots did not know the correct way to bypass the faulty readings
    And once again it was not caused by a single failure it was multiple issues that combined and then lead to the crash (and that plane should not have been allowed to fly in that state)

    And then the pilots lack of training on putting the system in an manual control state

    We will see what happened here and sad for the families who lost people
    Last edited by Veneficus; 2019/03/11 at 11:42 AM.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47514289
    How the plane differed from previous model
    Jakarta-based aviation analyst Gerry Soejatman told the BBC the 737 Max's "engine is a bit further forward and a bit higher in relation to the wing, compared to the previous version of the plane. That affects the balance of the plane".


    The Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee indicated that Lion Air flight 610 experienced "erroneous input" from one of its sensors designed to alert pilots if the aeroplane is at risk of stalling.


    The inquiry has not yet reached any final conclusions about the cause of the disaster.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    Incidentally-the 737 Max seems, by reports, to be 'inherently unstable' since its reconfiguration and update.

    -it is not allowable to certify an inherently unstable commercial aircraft that relies on software to correct the instability -Boeing seem, at perfunctory readings, to have done just this -in a roundabout way so that certification of the aircraft was possible.

    Yes, this seems to be the crux of the matter.

    Boeing got away with it because the majority of the plane is similar to previous generations.

    But Boeing did not do a proper job, it seems.

    There have been suggestions that some of the new sensors sometimes fail.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    I think the controversy regards the issue of system autonomy-not regarding the systems themselves -pilots are surely very happy to have systems to reduce workloads in the cockpit-but they want to be able to exercise ultimate authority when they deem necessary-something as simple as an iced over pitot could lead to catastrophe-as, I believe, was the case with the Air France Atlantic Ocean crash some years ago.
    Even the most "intrusive" fly by wire system as used in the current Airbus types allows pilot intervention and ultimate control within the flight envelope of the aircraft. It would only interfere when the pilot's control input would exceed the aircraft's aerodynamic capabilities, e.g. where a conventional aeroplane would stop flying or become uncontrollable.

    The Air France A330 crash you are referring to was caused by the crew's lack of ability to recognize the situation and deal with it accordingly. The iced up probes where the underlying problem. However pilot training in Europe these days differs vastly from the way pilots are trained in this part of the world: here a pilot would fly several hundred hours on smallish, conventional planes, before they would be able to even get into the cockpit of an airliner or get a commercial pilot license. This instills a certain sense of basic flying skills, e.g. if the nose pitches up AND speed increases without increase in power, something isn't right.
    Many European pilots these days go through integrated training, where their exposure to conventional aircraft is minimal, maybe 40 hours only. The bulk of their training is done on e.g. Airbus simulators, where they learn to fly this specific type of aircraft, but are very detached from real flying and lack the seat of the pants sort of sense. For the airlines it is great, as those pilots "grow up" in an airline environment right from the start and certain unwanted habits are being curbed right at the beginning.
    The crew at the controls of that Air France A330 did misinterpret the situation and didn't execute the correct procedure outlined in the manual for this situation.

    We had iced up probes numerous times in our fleet of Embraer Regional Jets, with differing airspeeds, vertical speed indications & altitude indications fluctuating. Apply the correct procedure and it's a non-event.
    It could have been the same for that A330.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    Incidentally-the 737 Max seems, by reports, to be 'inherently unstable' since its reconfiguration and update.

    -it is not allowable to certify an inherently unstable commercial aircraft that relies on software to correct the instability -Boeing seem, at perfunctory readings, to have done just this -in a roundabout way so that certification of the aircraft was possible.
    Aerodynamic stability in aircraft is defined as the aircraft's ability to return to it's previous flight condition after it has been upset, e.g. by turbulence, without pilot intervention. A good analogy is a pea in a soup bowl: push the pea away from the centre of the bowl and it will return to the bowl's centre when you let go. That is stability.
    Unstability as in fighter aircraft is, if you turn the soup bowl around, balance the pea on top. Even if you mange to do that, the slightest upset would cause the pea to move off the centre of the bowl. It requires input to keep the pea in it's position.

    Even the Boeing 737 max would be a stable aircraft. However due to the new engine mounting position, in certain critical flight conditions such as an onset of a stall, simply opening the thrust leavers would cause the nose to pitch up more in the 737max than in previous 737 and the nose pitching up is the last thing you want in that situation. To make the 737 max react more like the previous model 737 Boeing incorporated the nose down trim, aiding the pilots to counteract that pitch up moment.

    All aircraft with engines mounted underneath and slightly forward of the wing do suffer from this pitch up moment in a slow flight condition if suddenly thrust is applied. It's nothing new or specific to the 737 max.
    Last edited by HugoNotte; 2019/03/11 at 12:25 PM.
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  20. #36
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    Incidentally-the 737 Max seems, by reports, to be 'inherently unstable' since its reconfiguration and update.

    -it is not allowable to certify an inherently unstable commercial aircraft that relies on software to correct the instability -Boeing seem, at perfunctory readings, to have done just this -in a roundabout way so that certification of the aircraft was possible.
    So this is a software bug?
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    So this is a software bug?
    Speculation only
    -not necessarily a bug in the software, possibly faulty input instruments ( eg angle-of-attack indicator misreading, as seems to have been the case in the previous crash), thus sending wrong attitude information to MCAS electronic system software, system overrides pilot control column inputs as pilot tries to correct things when he sees there is a problem.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    Speculation only
    -not necessarily a bug in the software, possibly faulty input instruments ( eg angle-of-attack indicator misreading, as seems to have been the case in the previous crash), thus sending wrong attitude information to MCAS electronic system software, system overrides pilot control column inputs as pilot tries to correct things when he sees there is a problem.
    surely all inputs should be redundant?
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Interesting article here: https://www.wired.com/story/boeing-s...x-nosedive/amp

    They’re effectively saying "Go back, revisit your training, remind yourself what to do." At their most basic, the correct procedures mean disregarding what the instruments and warnings are saying and resetting the plane to a stable situation. “The ultimate answer is to set a known pitch and power setting,” says Westbrooks. That should create level flight and buy pilots time to figure out which readings are real and which are malfunctions.
    “We’ve been talking for several years in the industry about a degradation of pilot hand-flying skills,” says Westbrooks.
    Airline crashes are usually a result of one or more simple failures, followed by confusion among the crew, leading to a situation that quickly spirals out of control. That’s what happened when Air France flight 447 crashed into the Atlantic on the way to Paris from Rio de Janeiro in 2009, killing 228. Airspeed sensors on the Airbus A330 iced up, causing the autopilot to disconnect. The crew tried to fly manually, but couldn’t do it well enough to level the plane.
    What I said earlier.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    Speculation only
    -not necessarily a bug in the software, possibly faulty input instruments ( eg angle-of-attack indicator misreading, as seems to have been the case in the previous crash), thus sending wrong attitude information to MCAS electronic system software, system overrides pilot control column inputs as pilot tries to correct things when he sees there is a problem.
    Since the B737 got conventional controls and not fly by wire, the system can't override pilot control inputs. However, running the nose trim forward effectively overpowers the pilot's inputs.
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