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  1. #221
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    So they tried it in a simulator and found a faulty MCAS activation allows crews only 40 seconds to fix it.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/b...ion-error.html
    In a tacit acknowledgment of the systemís problems, Boeing is expected to propose a software update that would give pilots more control over the system and make it less likely to trigger erroneously, according to three people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the private meetings.


    That doesn't really fill me with confidence. None. Whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Seems that the incredibly simple failure of one of these instruments set of the chain of events.....

    If indeed critical reliance was placed on a solitary and single unit of this instrument at any time to provide a stable aircraft platform -and without very clear and precise emergency procedures for failure -

    ....then some people have really screwed up -in ignorance, idiocy, or incompetence!
    "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence."

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    The warning light that tells the pilots that those two sensors are giving different output was an optional extra. In the future it will be included into all of the planes.
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  5. #224
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko View Post
    The warning light that tells the pilots that those two sensors are giving different output was an optional extra. In the future it will be included into all of the planes.
    -.....
    "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence."

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    Seems that the incredibly simple failure of one of these instruments set of the chain of events.....

    If indeed critical reliance was placed on a solitary and single unit of this instrument at any time to provide a stable aircraft platform -and without very clear and precise emergency procedures for failure -

    ....then some people have really screwed up -in ignorance, idiocy, or incompetence!
    Or maybe they didn't screw up, they aren't ignorant, or idiots, or incompetent.

    Systems and software at this level is not done by the above.

    There are extremely well established and mature systems engineering people and processes and certification involved. And I can assure you that dealing with single point failure modes and dual redundancy are the cornerstones of these disciplines and the reasons why these aircraft aren't cheap as chips.

    Its complex, something went wrong - but its not because of ignorant, incompetent idiots.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Or maybe they didn't screw up, they aren't ignorant, or idiots, or incompetent.

    Systems and software at this level is not done by the above.

    There are extremely well established and mature systems engineering people and processes and certification involved. And I can assure you that dealing with single point failure modes and dual redundancy are the cornerstones of these disciplines and the reasons why these aircraft aren't cheap as chips.

    Its complex, something went wrong - but its not because of ignorant, incompetent idiots.
    I've been involved in aircraft design, and will attest to what you say. But it certainly seems that they royally effed up with something really "simple" this time. And it is going to cost them dearly, if it does not break them.


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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Or maybe they didn't screw up, they aren't ignorant, or idiots, or incompetent.

    Systems and software at this level is not done by the above.

    There are extremely well established and mature systems engineering people and processes and certification involved. And I can assure you that dealing with single point failure modes and dual redundancy are the cornerstones of these disciplines and the reasons why these aircraft aren't cheap as chips.

    Its complex, something went wrong - but its not because of ignorant, incompetent idiots.
    There's definitely always at least one incompetent when there's a big gemors like this!

    Or maybe the idiot is the baggage handler guy who stuck his gum on the AoA vane?
    "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence."

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeml View Post
    I've been involved in aircraft design, and will attest to what you say. But it certainly seems that they royally effed up with something really "simple" this time. And it is going to cost them dearly, if it does not break them.
    To put this into perspective. I am sitting right now in an Airbase Lab, well to be correct I was 4 hours ago and I will be tomorrow morning. And I do this all over the world.


    Somebody cocked up, and it's not because of the derogatory labels assigned to the people involved. Its just probably so complex that something slipped through the cracks.

    -------------

    My personal opinion. - They have stretched (literally) the 737's design beyond the MAX (excuse the pun), from what it was initially designed for.

    This new system is bandaid for an unstable platform.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    There's definitely always at least one incompetent when there's a big gemors like this!

    Or maybe the idiot is the baggage handler guy who stuck his gum on the AoA vane?

    For sure.

    My guess the idiot wasn't sitting in Engineering Department.

    Most probably -------- Bean counting Department.
    Cheers

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  12. #230
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    To put this into perspective. I am sitting right now in an Airbase Lab, well to be correct I was 4 hours ago and I will be tomorrow morning. And I do this all over the world.

    Great -that must imbibe you with great experience.


    Somebody cocked up, and it's not because of the derogatory labels assigned to the people involved. Its just probably so complex that something slipped through the cracks.

    When someone is an idiot, they are-simple.
    It may be that they are inherently idiotic, or momentarily so, and any number may be so together.
    In the chain of events here, some incompetent/idiotic decisions were clearly made.

    PS-Are you the PC Police for Engineers ?


    -------------

    My personal opinion. - They have stretched (literally) the 737's design beyond the MAX (excuse the pun), from what it was initially designed for.

    This new system is bandaid for an unstable platform.
    This is long established-no revelation there

    Have an Iced Zoo Fluffy-and ponder how you could make that biscuit fly!

    As they say-one can fly a barn door if you strap enough power to it!8)
    "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence."

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by kab123 View Post


    [/COLOR][/FONT]
    That doesn't really fill me with confidence. None. Whatsoever.
    It's a sad reality of the aviation industry that a lot of our BIG lessons' stories have been written in blood.
    It's just the way it is, sadly.

    It's also sad that these days, most accidents/incidents are the result of human errors rather than mechanical/materials failures, such as they were not too long ago.
    Cheers,
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Unfortunately quite a few of those "human errors" are actually suicides.



    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnoK View Post
    It's a sad reality of the aviation industry that a lot of our BIG lessons' stories have been written in blood.
    It's just the way it is, sadly.

    It's also sad that these days, most accidents/incidents are the result of human errors rather than mechanical/materials failures, such as they were not too long ago.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko View Post
    Unfortunately quite a few of those "human errors" are actually suicides.
    No, I'm talking about the actual accidents/incidents that have occurred and not some guy deciding he wanted company when he committed suicide.

    I forget the exact point, but it's in the last 20-30 years, that the cause of most accidents shifted from mechanical failure or material failure to a "somebody messed up" failure. In other words, planes are be more likely to crash because of the direct intervention of a person rather than something failing or breaking.
    Cheers,
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Yes. I agree what is below but what I say is that part of non mechanical reasons are suicides. Having more and more reliable planes human causes will become bigger percentage of the accidents and included there are the suicides.

    On the mechanical side I would say there are two items of note: Change from piston engines to jet. Development of quality systems. Big influence on that was Apollo 1 fire 1967.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnoK View Post
    No, I'm talking about the actual accidents/incidents that have occurred and not some guy deciding he wanted company when he committed suicide.

    I forget the exact point, but it's in the last 20-30 years, that the cause of most accidents shifted from mechanical failure or material failure to a "somebody messed up" failure. In other words, planes are be more likely to crash because of the direct intervention of a person rather than something failing or breaking.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Interesting read on the history and 'drive' behind the design of the 737Max series


    https://www.vox.com/business-and-fin...ndal-explained

    -the originator of this clusterf**k chain of events and result seems to be corporate/national greed!-No surprise there..

    -but the fact that some regulator/engineer/systems designer did not wave their hand in the air to seriously question the very basic premise of relying on a SINGLE SOLITARY AoA sensor to control a CRITICAL flight control system such as flying-stabilator trim -especially when the possibility exists- within the angular travel range of the 737 trimmable stabiliser - for the stabiliser to trim so far nose-down, that even full elevator application cannot counter the nose-down attitude.

    The AoA vane is a very prone instrument-as is clear from its positioning on the fuselage

    Did someone even consider a birdstrike on AoA vane 1, that may then disable AoA vane 2 because of debris?
    -or-that new baggage handler bumped it with the motor-stair, and forgot to tell someone?
    -or, they've both iced up in extreme weather?



    I am most puzzled, that considering the myriad professions and processes and ongoing operational oversight in the airline industry by manufacturers,operators,regulators and pilots-, of one of the few top workhorses: the 737 series-that this slipped through.

    But I guess everything and anything is open to manipulation when human greed factors.

    Barnstorming-anyone??!!









    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...?smid=tw-share
    Last edited by Patrick L; 2019/03/30 at 03:04 PM.
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  19. #236
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    I had a quick look into that AoA sensor. It seems to be mechanical devise . Maybe such is reliable or was at one time in the past. I am pretty sure there are non mechanical solutions. If nothing else have a third sensor which works on different bases. Then you have better possibility to know, which info is correct in case of a malfunction.
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko View Post
    I had a quick look into that AoA sensor. It seems to be mechanical devise . Maybe such is reliable or was at one time in the past. I am pretty sure there are non mechanical solutions. If nothing else have a third sensor which works on different bases. Then you have better possibility to know, which info is correct in case of a malfunction.
    I don't think them being mechanical devices is a problem in itself- a mechanical device (freely!) reacting to a mechanical force (airflow) is about as close to 'truth' you can get!8) I love and trust observable mechanics like nothing else!8) Electronics falls in the fields of Wizardry for me!

    Most traditional analog directional instruments on aircraft work with multiple gyroscopes-a mechanical device, and with mechanical dynamic/static air pressure sensors.

    The information mechanically read is 'digitised' along the route to the final display instrument -and may be digitised anywhere along the line
    The mechanical AoA device is mechanical to the point that it moves the vane across an electrified slide-contact, which gauges mechanical movement by varying electrical output as the vane-contacts slide across the transmitter contact
    -this analogue output is then read/translated to digital data by electronic circuitry magic!

    I suspect that even the 'glass cockpit' display instruments of today work with gyroscopes embedded in their circuitry -what other method exists today to determine true orientation in 3 planes?

    Are there 'this-side-up-only' only electrons?

    -give me a bubble level....8)

    -I will even go so far, without being very sure at all-to say I believe that miniaturised mechanical gyroscopes within digital embedded circuitry are what still provide the very basic and fundamentsl directional/orientational reference points for all analog-to-digital information processed for electronic display in aircraft.



    .........
    Seems a little lump of silicone in a monitored bubble keeps an aircraft safely in the air! Mechanics/gravity is great!


    How does Accelerometer and Gyro sensor work in digital gadgets?



    4 Answers





    Ananthakrishnan R, Singer | Sound Engineer | Electronics Engineer | Music Director | Avid Traveller
    Answered Jul 4 2016






    Accelerometer in mobile
    A small mass made of silicon is placed in an isolated chamber(think in micro size level). A micro electro mechanical system is implemented (which includes this mass). When the mass moves according to the mobile movement, it's acceleration and thereby linear movement can be analysed using the systemic arrangement of the above mentioned unit(MEMS(micro electro mechanical system)).

    Gyro Sensor

    It's quite similar to accelerometer. It measure the angular movements unlike accelerometer. The principle is almost same. Here the arrangement of system is designed in such a way that the mass body's angular velocity, acceleration could be analysed.
    Both sensors measure rate of change; they just measure the rate of change for different things. One for linear movement and other for angular movement.
    Last edited by Patrick L; 2019/03/30 at 04:29 PM. Reason: websearch
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Modern gyroscopes work on laser. My son works for (now) Japanese company, which makes sensors for cars. Tiny bits of electronics and they know acceleration in 3D.

    My main point is that if you have 2 sensors giving conflicting info it is not that easy to say which one is wrong. If you have three and one of them is different type there can be a vote two against one. If something goes wrong pilot must be trained what to do. Why to have that pilot there if he/she is not trained?

    Air France Airbus fell to sea because the speed reading was wrong. An other exposed instrument. They froze. Pilots were not trained to fly without computer. Air France changed that. I spoke to an other airline ex pilot and he said that none of their pilots would have had problems in flying the plane. Their training included what to do. They fly also Airbus.
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  23. #239
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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko View Post
    Modern gyroscopes work on laser. My son works for (now) Japanese company, which makes sensors for cars. Tiny bits of electronics and they know acceleration in 3D.

    My main point is that if you have 2 sensors giving conflicting info it is not that easy to say which one is wrong. If you have three and one of them is different type there can be a vote two against one. If something goes wrong pilot must be trained what to do. Why to have that pilot there if he/she is not trained?

    Air France Airbus fell to sea because the speed reading was wrong. An other exposed instrument. They froze. Pilots were not trained to fly without computer. Air France changed that. I spoke to an other airline ex pilot and he said that none of their pilots would have had problems in flying the plane. Their training included what to do. They fly also Airbus.

    Thanks-lasers,-I see that now!8) Even quantum-physics!

    I agree on your point of 'disagreeing' instruments and the confusing protocols that can arise for different scenarios, and that ultimately there must still be capability of 'seat-of-the-pants' flying by pilots, and with traditional mechanical primary instrument backup. It is after all a mechanical operation- is flying- and until electronics are as clearly understood as mechanics, mechanics should not be discarded as point of last recourse!


    MEMS Gyroscope

    Main article: Vibrating structure gyroscope
    A microelectromechanical systems (MEMS) gyroscope are miniaturized gyroscope found in electronic devices. It takes the idea of the Foucault pendulum and uses a vibrating element.
    HRG

    The hemispherical resonator gyroscope (HRG), also called wine-glass gyroscope[contradictory] or mushroom gyro, makes using a thin solid-state hemispherical shell, anchored by a thick stem. This shell is driven to a flexural resonance by electrostatic forces generated by electrodes which are deposited directly onto separate fused-quartz structures that surround the shell. Gyroscopic effect is obtained from the inertial property of the flexural standing waves.[citation needed]
    VSG or CVG

    A vibrating structure gyroscope (VSG), also called a Coriolis vibratory gyroscope (CVG),[43] uses a resonator made of different metallic alloys. It takes a position between the low-accuracy, low-cost MEMS gyroscope and the higher-accuracy and higher-cost fiber optic gyroscope. Accuracy parameters are increased by using low-intrinsic damping materials, resonator vacuumization, and digital electronics to reduce temperature dependent drift and instability of control signals.[44]
    High quality wine-glass resonators are used for precise sensors like HRG.[45]
    DTG

    A dynamically tuned gyroscope (DTG) is a rotor suspended by a universal joint with flexure pivots.[46] The flexure spring stiffness is independent of spin rate. However, the dynamic inertia (from the gyroscopic reaction effect) from the gimbal provides negative spring stiffness proportional to the square of the spin speed (Howe and Savet, 1964; Lawrence, 1998). Therefore, at a particular speed, called the tuning speed, the two moments cancel each other, freeing the rotor from torque, a necessary condition for an ideal gyroscope.
    Ring laser gyroscope

    Main article: Ring laser gyroscope
    A ring laser gyroscope relies on the Sagnac effect to measure rotation by measuring the shifting interference pattern of a beam split into two halves, as the two halves move around the ring in opposite directions.
    When the Boeing 757-200 entered service in 1983, it was equipped with the first suitable ring laser gyroscope. This gyroscope took many years to develop, and the experimental models went through many changes before it was deemed ready for production by the engineers and managers of Honeywell and Boeing. It was an outcome of the competition with mechanical gyroscopes, which kept improving. The reason Honeywell, of all companies, chose to develop the laser gyro was that they were the only one that didn't have a successful line of mechanical gyroscopes, so they wouldn't be competing against themselves. The first problem they had to solve was that with laser gyros rotations below a certain minimum could not be detected at all, due to a problem called "lock-in", whereby the two beams act like coupled oscillators and pull each other's frequencies toward convergence and therefore zero output. The solution was to shake the gyro rapidly so that it never settled into lock-in. Paradoxically, too regular of a dithering motion produced an accumulation of short periods of lock-in when the device was at rest at the extremities of its shaking motion. This was cured by applying a random white noise to the vibration. The material of the block was also changed from quartz to a new glass ceramic Cer-Vit, made by Owens Corning, because of helium leaks.[47]
    Fiber optic gyroscope

    Main article: Fibre optic gyroscope
    A fiber optic gyroscope also uses the interference of light to detect mechanical rotation. The two halves of the split beam travel in opposite directions in a coil of fiber optic cable as long as 5 km. Like the ring laser gyroscope, it makes use of the Sagnac effect.[48]
    London moment

    A London moment gyroscope relies on the quantum-mechanical phenomenon, whereby a spinning superconductor generates a magnetic field whose axis lines up exactly with the spin axis of the gyroscopic rotor. A magnetometer determines the orientation of the generated field, which is interpolated to determine the axis of rotation. Gyroscopes of this type can be extremely accurate and stable. For example, those used in the Gravity Probe B experiment measured changes in gyroscope spin axis orientation to better than 0.5 milliarcseconds (1.4◊10−7 degrees, or about 2.4◊10−9 radians) over a one-year period.[49] This is equivalent to an angular separation the width of a human hair viewed from 32 kilometers (20 mi) away.[50]
    The GP-B gyro consists of a nearly-perfect spherical rotating mass made of fused quartz, which provides a dielectric support for a thin layer of niobium superconducting material. To eliminate friction found in conventional bearings, the rotor assembly is centered by the electric field from six electrodes. After the initial spin-up by a jet of helium which brings the rotor to 4,000 RPM, the polished gyroscope housing is evacuated to an ultra-high vacuum to further reduce drag on the rotor. Provided the suspension electronics remain powered, the extreme rotational symmetry, lack of friction, and low drag will allow the angular momentum of the rotor to keep it spinning for about 15,000 years.[51]
    A sensitive DC SQUID that can discriminate changes as small as one quantum, or about 2 ◊10−15 Wb, is used to monitor the gyroscope. A precession, or tilt, in the orientation of the rotor causes the London moment magnetic field to shift relative to the housing. The moving field passes through a superconducting pickup loop fixed to the housing, inducing a small electric current. The current produces a voltage across a shunt resistance, which is resolved to spherical coordinates by a microprocessor. The system is designed to minimize Lorentz torque on the rotor.[52][53]
    "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence."

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    Default Re: Ethiopian Airlines Crash

    Mechanical items are replaced in many places but they have absolutely perfect use in many places. I do not say that electronics should only be used. Just that there should be for critical instruments third opinion to have "voting". Flying is 3D issue where there are many factors. There are hills around the CT where wind speed is higher than stalling speed of a small plane I am not a pilot not even near but AoA is linked to air flow and air flow direction in one way or the other.

    An example of voting far closer to earth than these planes. I have worked on pressure item design on pressure equipment during the last week or two. I did get two conflicting data. Which is wrong and which is right? I was able to bring in the third opinion by scaling a picture which indicates that opinion A is right. Now they have to confirm that 100%. I did not save human lives but most probably big fight and few hundred k in R.
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