plumbing certificates. - Page 2





Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 21 to 38 of 38
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Roodepoort
    Age
    63
    Posts
    1,048
    Thanked: 2739

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    So I did get the certificate after asking for it.

    There is a list of non compliant items:
    Unbalanced water system. It has been like that close to 30 years working perfectly. There is no need in this case to have balanced

    Geyser supplied by 15 mm pipes. Geyser is for one bathroom, washing machine and kitchen. Why I should have 20 mm pipe and valves?

    No R1 rated geyser pipes insulation. So must I now start chopping the walls. Geyser is just above the usage points so free pipes are short and in any case the installation is old when no insulation was not asked for. If this is the requirement then why they did not insulate the new pipes they installed?

    Existing pipes in the roof area are not secured and supported. Sorry. Bloke was smoking something he should not have done.

    I attach the rules when COC is required. Note the price level.

    Will look into the board site.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Jouko
    ----------
    2003 Grand Cherokee 4.7l
    2012 Smart
    Never drive a normal car

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    durban
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,113
    Thanked: 823

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko View Post
    So I did get the certificate after asking for it.

    There is a list of non compliant items:
    Unbalanced water system. It has been like that close to 30 years working perfectly. There is no need in this case to have balanced

    Geyser supplied by 15 mm pipes. Geyser is for one bathroom, washing machine and kitchen. Why I should have 20 mm pipe and valves?

    No R1 rated geyser pipes insulation. So must I now start chopping the walls. Geyser is just above the usage points so free pipes are short and in any case the installation is old when no insulation was not asked for. If this is the requirement then why they did not insulate the new pipes they installed?

    Existing pipes in the roof area are not secured and supported. Sorry. Bloke was smoking something he should not have done.

    I attach the rules when COC is required. Note the price level.

    Will look into the board site.
    Not sure how to respond to this Jouko. Its unusual to feed the geyser with 15mm pipes . In the olden days with the latco valves of 100kpa pressure the pipe valve size was 15tmm.

    Also combination geysers were fed with 15mm pipe. (gravity geyser.)Over time your geyser may have been replaced with a new pressure geyser and that is why its not balanced. A geyser with a 15mm inlet and 22mm outlet may suffer from starvation issues but in the real world on a decent pressure I have never actually seen much difference.


    If a geyser is not balanced its not the inconvenience of getting scalded if your wife flushes the toilet, its the back pressure on the pr valve that can prematurely damage it.As for lagging ,in Durbans hot climate I cant comment on how much heat loss there will be. Especially on a pipe like the tp where there is no water running in it. Its not hazardous to safety or function to the geyser or have any effect on the warrantee of the geyser so its crazy to rectify it and chop walls if I understand you correctly.

    It would be nice to see a pic of the installation and a copy of their coc. I am interested in how they fill it in.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Bellville
    Age
    51
    Posts
    12,922
    Thanked: 1773

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    Quote Originally Posted by plunger View Post
    Not sure how to respond to this Jouko.

    ...As for lagging ,in Durbans hot climate I cant comment on how much heat loss there will be. ....

    SANS 10252-1:2016 makes no distinction between provinces. ALL hot water pipes are to be lagged. Table 10 provides the insulation requirements, purely based on the pipe diameter ....


    We often do third party inspections .... OFTEN find minimal to no insulation on the hot-water pipes ..... dissapointing the low level of competence out there, or the shear disregard for rules.


    and people still wonder why COC's are required ...

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    durban
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,113
    Thanked: 823

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisF View Post
    SANS 10252-1:2016 makes no distinction between provinces. ALL hot water pipes are to be lagged. Table 10 provides the insulation requirements, purely based on the pipe diameter ....


    We often do third party inspections .... OFTEN find minimal to no insulation on the hot-water pipes ..... dissapointing the low level of competence out there, or the shear disregard for rules.


    and people still wonder why COC's are required ...
    Chris I dont have a copy of the sans 10254.With regard to lagging , When did this take place and do you have any literature as to what the lagging entails.?

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Roodepoort
    Age
    63
    Posts
    1,048
    Thanked: 2739

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisF View Post
    SANS 10252-1:2016 makes no distinction between provinces. ALL hot water pipes are to be lagged. Table 10 provides the insulation requirements, purely based on the pipe diameter ....


    We often do third party inspections .... OFTEN find minimal to no insulation on the hot-water pipes ..... dissapointing the low level of competence out there, or the shear disregard for rules.


    and people still wonder why COC's are required ...

    The issue is if the regulation applies to old installation also. On the new installation this company did do a nice job but did not put insulation on the pipes they installed but complain of the old pipes. Doesn't make sense. I tried to find the applicable specification but did not find "free copy". Did not buy yet like I did with electrical and gas specs.

    Not having insulation on hot water pipes is one thing. It will not kill people. I work on high pressure stuff where regulations are broken on a daily bases. There have been serious accidents and more to come. Registered people sign totally wrong designs or there is no review at all because it cost money or there is no time. At present I have a problem with all of these COCs, registered person to sign.... The aim is good but implementation is very poor to not existing.
    Jouko
    ----------
    2003 Grand Cherokee 4.7l
    2012 Smart
    Never drive a normal car

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Durban North
    Age
    64
    Posts
    523
    Thanked: 844

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    When doing a Geyser replacement and insurance are paying, only the geyser, tray, valve&vacuum breakers are changed... Insurance do not pay for upgrades... In other words extending of overflow pipes, changing them to copper, upsizing of feeds, lagging fitting extra shuts offs, balancing of pressure.. This is done separately for the owners cost.. I normally quote for everything up to one meter from Geyser and quote separately for the extras... However should all these things be in place already insurance has no issue covering whatever is an problem and needs replacing.... My biggest issue though is who pays for the enlarging of trap doors or when a Geyser needs to be relocated when it does not fit in a cupboard anymore because the new geysers have been made bigger to change the energy rating/saving..
    The war of COCs continues... Really a issue that needs to be sddressed

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ruimsig
    Age
    55
    Posts
    3,891
    Thanked: 3313

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    In principle, the certification process is good, but only effective if the fly-by-nights have been taken out of the picture. Many countries operate on that system with trades-people only allowed to operate if they belong to the respective Guild and in order to belong to such a Guild, they have to have passed the respective exams etc.

    There are a number of ''trades'' in SA where the barriers to entry are low, you just need a bakkie and some tools, with sufficient clients who want to trim costs, that perpetuate the problems. Unfortunately, the current government is quick to legislate but lack the capability or capacity to enforce the framework that requires the legislation.
    There is no such thing as inclement weather, only poor selection of clothing.... or Vehicle

    2010 Hummer H3 5.3lt V8, 300 HP, FDL, RDL, CDL, TC and 4:1 Low Range

    Discovery and Range Rovers: SOLD: enough is enough

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Deep south - mink, manure & marijuana
    Age
    69
    Posts
    397
    Thanked: 143

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZuluCowboy View Post
    Does this sound correct, seeing as you guys are on the topic? Bought it 5 years ago, no mods done and now I need to have all this work done??
    Hi ZuluCowboy. My sympathies to you. Same company (based on yellow pattern on your quotes) did my inspections 2 weeks ago. My Coc's (all 3) came to around R7.5k. Some items identical to yours.
    Some background : bought my house 7 years ago - it is a 110 heritage house - . All inspections done and faults rectified at this point by the seller. I must confess I cannot recall if the water by-law was in place then). My wife and I have just sold the house and had to get the usual Coc's - R7.5k.
    Sam
    ZS1SAM
    V5/ZS1SAM

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ruimsig
    Age
    55
    Posts
    3,891
    Thanked: 3313

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamM View Post
    Hi ZuluCowboy. My sympathies to you. Same company (based on yellow pattern on your quotes) did my inspections 2 weeks ago. My Coc's (all 3) came to around R7.5k. Some items identical to yours.
    Some background : bought my house 7 years ago - it is a 110 heritage house - . All inspections done and faults rectified at this point by the seller. I must confess I cannot recall if the water by-law was in place then). My wife and I have just sold the house and had to get the usual Coc's - R7.5k.
    The aggravating point in all of this is that its only law abiding citizens that get penalised in these situations. Those who build shacks dont get policed and penalised in the same way
    There is no such thing as inclement weather, only poor selection of clothing.... or Vehicle

    2010 Hummer H3 5.3lt V8, 300 HP, FDL, RDL, CDL, TC and 4:1 Low Range

    Discovery and Range Rovers: SOLD: enough is enough

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Estee For This Useful Post:


  11. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Roodepoort
    Age
    63
    Posts
    1,048
    Thanked: 2739

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    I did some checking. On the plumbing certificate is a name who has signed it. He doesn't seem to work for the company in question. Not enough info to verify 100%. I saw the two who did the work. They did indicate the the cert is issued by the office. It is fully electronic including the signature. It is signed "I have inspected and tested the work started by another qualified plumber. Any necessary work completion work was carried out by me or under my" end of the wording is not visible.

    I double checked. Nobody has been in the house to check the work.

    High probability is that this paper has no value....
    Jouko
    ----------
    2003 Grand Cherokee 4.7l
    2012 Smart
    Never drive a normal car

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Jouko For This Useful Post:


  13. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Standerton
    Age
    58
    Posts
    155
    Thanked: 11

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    Interesting thread.
    There will always be change. The ossewawielmakers from the previous century went out of business if they did not start a Tiger Wheel and Tire.

    When change happen the decision is upon yourself to focus on the dark cloud or the silver lining.
    It can be as severe as changing your profession.
    I came from a completely different trade and about 12 years ago I became involved with selling LPG on a small scale. Because of this people asked me to service and or repair their appliances. My only knowledge came from school; you need oxygen, a flammable substance and a spark or heat to sustain fire. This was not enough knowledge but I knew about google.

    Google threw a bucket of ice water on me, no work allowed unless you are an accredited installer. I decided to bite the bullet and do the course. Coming from the platteland made it difficult, course content was OK but concentrated on what SANS allowed you to do.
    Because of LPG (geysers) I got involved in plumbing. Customers asked me to extent the pipe or fit a new tap etc.
    They say that luck happens when opportunity and preparation meets. One morning at 06:00 when I unlocked the doors to my business a man came in and asked “would you be interested in buying my plumbing business”? I do not know why but I had a look at his proposal and it made financial sense, although I knew nothing about plumbing and was 52 years old.

    It was only after I bought the business that I learned about PIRB. Yes I also had that initial knee jerk response. Being in small business for many years taught me to ignore the dark cloud. Believe me the silver lining is always present.

    Doing a job and writing the COC also make provision for writing a NON Compliance.

    I am subscribed to the LPG Telegram group and the amount of correspondence for and against all arguments are just mind boggling.
    I think the SANS and the implementation thereof must be seen as a live document where the need is to uplift industry standards.
    In my opinion the industries accept the difficulty in applying the rules and are lenient on the implementation.
    I think we must separate non-critical, non-compliance and safety issues.
    For example R1 lagging can be about energy conservation and or frosting issues. (I would do the job and inform customer about NON Compliant issues.)
    Having the discharge pipe from a TP (Temperature, Pressure Safety Valve) smaller than the valve fitting can be a severe safety issue. I would write a NON-Compliant note and step away from the job.

    And this is where it can get ugly.

    Having the knowledge on a potential dangerous situation it becomes your responsibility to send this copy of Non-Compliance to the local authority, your industry authority and the customers insurance.

    Or do I have the cat by the tail?

    Since buying this plumbing business I got myself qualified at Olifantsfontein (there is something called RPL (Recognition of prior learning)), enrolled and did the test successfully being 54 years old.

    This was an ass kicking experience for me as I qualified on my first attempt and then went on to do the PIRB SOLAR and HEAT PUMP accreditation attending webinars. My kids had a strange look in the eyes when I told them about these webinars??

    To be honest all these accreditations did not shower me in a pot of gold.

    What it did is allowed me to have an informed conversation with my client with a lot of confidence on his or her plumbing and LPG needs.
    It also allowed me to tell the customer that his outer walls look s**t and needs painting…………

    This leave them a little embarrassed asking for a quote…

    There is just no doubt in my mind that if I give this client a lot of information and he or she does not spend money on me today, and if I get generated on their memory again it will be a silver lining and not a dark cloud.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Martingx For This Useful Post:


  15. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    durban
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,113
    Thanked: 823

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elders View Post
    SANS 10252-1:2016 makes no distinction between provinces. ALL hot water pipes are to be lagged. Table 10 provides the insulation requirements, purely based on the pipe diameter ....


    We often do third party inspections .... OFTEN find minimal to no insulation on the hot-water pipes ..... dissapointing the low level of competence out there, or the shear disregard for rules.


    and people still wonder why COC's are required ...
    Elders it is not a low level of competence.I will give you an example. You get to a house that has a leaking pr valve ,not balanced ,leaking torn tray and insufficient timber on the trusses to support the geyser as per standards.

    To make matters worse the outlet pipe from the tray is cable duct and not supported.The tp pipe is eight meters from the outside of the building and there is no isolation switch to the geyser. The pipes are not secured to the trusses and and you have to make a bigger trap door because the house has chromadeck and you dont want to lift sheets and damage flashing. There is also no pipe insulation.

    The home owner calls you but has a bond with the bank. There is no way on this earth that you can fix all this for R6700,00 the amount the bank allows.
    Now you have a choice. Try tell the home owner who is broke that he must pay for the upgrades.
    But the bank plumbers seem to do it for this price. So its a no brainer that the owner is going to use the bank plumber. Suddenly its not a fair playing field .I am certain the bank plumbers get a special deal from the plumbing merchants.

    So now I have been called to a house ,climb in a roof and spend an hour of my time so that another plumber gets the job.I am out of pocket.

    The beauty of the coc is that I can mark all these items as non compliant and cover my arse if the insurance is not with the bank. But many times the owner will think I am trying to pull a fast one.

    I have had it once before the coc ,s were compulsory that an insurance company point blank refused to pay me because I wrote the installation was not compliant. Some installations are impossible to get compliant but to get my money I had to rewrite my invoice.

    And to answer your low level of competence remark which is true you must not forget Durban has the highest standard of plumbing in the country.You will not get a compliance certificate to move in your house if you have not met the inspectors strict standards.A Pirb certificate is not recognized.Try explaining that.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to plunger For This Useful Post:


  17. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Durban North
    Age
    64
    Posts
    523
    Thanked: 844

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    The PIRB is not recognized by the Durban Metro, no matter how hard it tries to call the shots,... Being registered as a plumbing concern is required by Metro where as being a member of PIRB is not, they are not a regulating body as much as they would like to be and try convince industry and public that they are in Charge... They are not and it not compulsory to be a member of this organization.... A Coc actually means nothing in the Durban region... But they have infiltrated the insurance industry and baffled them properly

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dudleytheplumber For This Useful Post:


  19. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Durban North
    Age
    64
    Posts
    523
    Thanked: 844

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    As per Jouko's comment to put it precisely, his certificate has no value

  20. #35
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ruimsig
    Age
    55
    Posts
    3,891
    Thanked: 3313

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    Very interesting subject matter as I see it from 2 angles. I was fortunate to have been a part of the following bit of legislation introduced by an act of parliament in Zambia, as part of the team that drafted and finalised the end document:

    http://www.parliament.gov.zm/sites/d...C%202014_0.PDF

    I could see the need as Logistics, traditionally, used to be the dumping ground for the not so sharp of mind withing companies.

    This legislation required that anyone practicing in logistics and transport had to be a member of CILT and any company trading in the same had to be a corporate member. Yes, this did bolster numbers and revenues to ZCILT but it also ensured that practitioners had, at the very least, the fundamentals of the trade.

    Jump to a 3rd world, oops sorry, developing country scenario. These are clearly 1st world....ooops sorry, developed country requirements which can be an inhibitor to growth in certain areas. The West progressed through various stages in industrial development and legislation. SA wants to skip all of that and jump to an up-to-date status regarding this.

    Jump to personal situation, I would prefer a competent (qualified) person to carry out work for me but I am also sensitive to the environment in which people have to operate.

    A conundrum indeed.
    There is no such thing as inclement weather, only poor selection of clothing.... or Vehicle

    2010 Hummer H3 5.3lt V8, 300 HP, FDL, RDL, CDL, TC and 4:1 Low Range

    Discovery and Range Rovers: SOLD: enough is enough

  21. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    284
    Thanked: 641

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    There are two entirely different requirements here...

    #1 - Get the job done properly, safely and in a way to minimize future problems.
    #2 - Get COC (or any certification) to sign off project and continue to next step...

    This is an issue all over the world... but Africa has it's own spin here.

    As Estee mentioned... you have someone with this dilemma, (actually no real issue in Africa) installing a solar geyser on a shack... it's hot water or none. On the other side we have a million rand house and the damage caused by a poor installation is a deal breaker. In the second instance, safety would be a consideration too...

    Take this a step further and we see the difference in power coming from a wire across the street, and making sure a smart meter is working properly...

    I mention extremes here, but that is not the point I am making, rather that the circumstances around implementing the same job (fit geyser, fit new light,) can be very different...
    "The problem with internet quotes is that they are very often unverified."
    -Abraham Lincoln

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to MarcR For This Useful Post:


  23. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Durban North
    Age
    64
    Posts
    523
    Thanked: 844

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    Agreed get the job done properly, no comebacks, Health and Safety is becoming more important than anything else on site these days... Toolbox talks can take some serious time.
    , signing on each guy with his PPE equipment day, each contract needs its own file (costing more money) there are already so many regulations, fine to say sign off and move on... I already comply to the standards andnorms that we need to, why do I need to belong to a body that that wants my money and is not a recognized entity... At the end of the day they are only bullies

  24. The Following User Says Thank You to Dudleytheplumber For This Useful Post:


  25. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Centurion
    Age
    46
    Posts
    607
    Thanked: 83

    Default Re: plumbing certificates.

    Similar to guy who contacted me the other day, for components to put up a first floor slab. I asked for the design in order to assist. "No it's for a house in the township, we don't need a design". OK bye!

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to waldo_g For This Useful Post:


Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •