Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.




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  1. #1
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    Default Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    I built a rotating drum tumbler. The motor that I am using is from a refridgeration unit fan motor.
    The motor is single phase and has only got a blue and brown wire. If running free it does become quite hot after about two minutes and subsequently I mounted a 220v fan to keep the motor cold under opperation.
    After showing my friend my setup he asked why I installed the fan. Informing me that that type of motor should not run hot and if it does it means that there is excessive losses. Stating that I should look at installing a running capacitor to correct the phasing.
    So I hit Google and YouTube and came up emptyhanded. There is alot of information on two and there coil motors but nothing on single winding motors with only two wires.
    I contacted Schipper and Sons for some information but all they were interested in was selling me Exactly the same motor at a cost of R500. Without telling me about electronics that goes with it.
    I'm pretty disgusted at their lack of assistance and advise.

    So now this brings me to the wisdom and mercy of the greatest forum ever. The 4x4community forum.

    I hope you guys can help me with this please.
    Ps. There is no roughness om the bearings and the motor runs quiet and silky smooth. I have two other of these as well and they also run very hot. No matter if under load or not.Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Karoo Klong; 2019/01/17 at 09:39 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    Having being electrically qualified for almost 40 years I would love to help you. Unfortunately there are too many people here that know far more than I do. My experience on the reversing single phase motors and the super capacitors threads has made me reluctant to offer any advice. I am certain someone here could help you. If nobody does, I will attempt to.
    Last edited by Olyfboer; 2019/01/18 at 12:23 AM. Reason: Text
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    I appreciate your comment Olyfboer.
    Here is what I have found out so far.
    1. Starting capacitors are higher microfarad rating than running capacitors.
    2. That I should look at a microfarad rating of between 5-9 and 450V
    3. That the capacitor should be installed in series with the Live input.

    But I am not sure about any of these.

    I do have a 10 microfarad 450v capacitor that I would like to give a go but I did find some information that if your rating is incorrect, you could push the motor further out of phase and increase the internal losses.

    I even asked the electrical engineers at work, but electrical motors are not among their field of expertise.

    This is really my last resort.

    Feel free to pm me even, I would like to try out at least something over the weekend.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    That is a shaded pole motor, it has no internal cooling fan. These shaded pole motors are found in air-cons and ALWAYS have a fan attached, the secondary purpose of the fan is to cool the motor. I cannot recall ever seeing capacitors in circuit with a shaded pole motor. Fan motors like this are not noted for having great amounts of torque so apart from no cooling circuit you may well be submitting the motor to loads that it is uncomfortable with.

    Additionally you are gearing down which will also exacerbate your torque problem.

    IMO you are using the wrong motor for you application.
    Last edited by Andrew Leigh; 2019/01/18 at 06:26 AM.

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  6. #5
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    maybe chat to these okes. They seem to know a thing or two about motors.
    https://news.ewmfg.com/blog/comparin...-and-ec-motors
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  8. #6
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    Karoo Klong,

    What is your final speed of the drum? You will want it at around 60 rpm. Depending on the size and diameter of your drum, and the amount of cases and volume liquid you will fill the tumbler drum with, you will more torque than what that shaded pole can offer. You may well be better off with a small geared motor.

  9. #7
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Leigh View Post
    Karoo Klong,

    What is your final speed of the drum? You will want it at around 60 rpm. Depending on the size and diameter of your drum, and the amount of cases and volume liquid you will fill the tumbler drum with, you will more torque than what that shaded pole can offer. You may well be better off with a small geared motor.
    I measured the drum speed at 71rpm (target speed needs to be 40-60) when loaded. Total weight is 5Kg
    Drum is 165mm outside.
    Shaft rolers are 20mm
    Slave pulley in shaft is 50mm
    Master pulley on motor is 13.5mm

    It starts and runs without effort and van still take alot of resistance of I try to stall it by hand.

    I have been searching for a similarly small better suited motor but no luck. Other motors I could source were too bulky and rather ugly as well.

  10. #8
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    Speak to the guys at Moterelli. They have a motor for EVERY occasion. Can't remember our reps name. We have not ordered from them for a while. If they won't help you directly, send me a pm.
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    A 12v wiper motor run at approx. 50rpm(at low speed) and should turn the 5kg drum easy.
    98 Hilux 2.8D D/C 4x4

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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfreesani View Post
    Speak to the guys at Moterelli. They have a motor for EVERY occasion. Can't remember our reps name. We have not ordered from them for a while. If they won't help you directly, send me a pm.
    Thanks I will give them a try.

  13. #11
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    Did that in V1.0 and the motor heated up like a mofo. Also cut outs several times. Other problem is large powersupply and also manier of fixing directly to the drum.
    Having the direct fixture even if detachable is quite a deviation of the inicial idea to have an independent watertight drum and interchangeability.
    The setup becomes bulky and also not really what I was looking for.
    Quote Originally Posted by wiel View Post
    A 12v wiper motor run at approx. 50rpm(at low speed) and should turn the 5kg drum easy.
    I am aiming for the Thumbler's tumbler type design but with a bit more practicality.

  14. #12
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    Could be that there is a fault with that motor. I used a wiper motor for a sheep spit that I built 27 years ago and at a minimum of 2 sheep a year at 4 - 5 hours a time has never gave any problems. Okay the spit is geared down to 4rpm using bicycle sprockets/chains and that will reduce the load on the motor a lot, but it should easily turn 5kg direct being a brushed motor with high torq. It is running of a simple transformer type battery charger using no more than 2.5 amps. Free running is 1.8 amp. I built a diy PWM speed controller for it in November (under R100) and now have full control over the speed.
    To connect to the drum you only need a shaft with 8mm thread tapped into it to turn on to the treaded shaft of the motor.
    If you can get hold of a washing machine motor (they are cap start and more suitable for heavy work) you should be sorted. Go to your local scrap metal dealer and get one for cheap.
    98 Hilux 2.8D D/C 4x4

  15. #13
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiel View Post
    Could be that there is a fault with that motor. I used a wiper motor for a sheep spit that I built 27 years ago and at a minimum of 2 sheep a year at 4 - 5 hours a time has never gave any problems. Okay the spit is geared down to 4rpm using bicycle sprockets/chains and that will reduce the load on the motor a lot, but it should easily turn 5kg direct being a brushed motor with high torq. It is running of a simple transformer type battery charger using no more than 2.5 amps. Free running is 1.8 amp. I built a diy PWM speed controller for it in November (under R100) and now have full control over the speed.
    To connect to the drum you only need a shaft with 8mm thread tapped into it to turn on to the treaded shaft of the motor.
    If you can get hold of a washing machine motor (they are cap start and more suitable for heavy work) you should be sorted. Go to your local scrap metal dealer and get one for cheap.
    I have a few wiper motors and also a motor that turns MIG welder drum.
    However I do not wish to have te drum fixed to the drive unit.
    I am aiming for a design similar to the Extreme tumbler.
    That's why I want to keep the base seperate from the tumbling drum.
    It's just preferece of design and functionality.
    But I can't seem to find the correct motor for the application.
    I did find two used washing machine motors and have purchased a starting cap for it. But those motors are huge and not really what I intended for this use. Also they are 2800rpm vs the 1360rpm of this motor. Wich means the pulley will have to be quite large.

  16. #14
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    So I need to find a smaller motor that still would fit the application. But I have found motor suppliers to be highly unhelpfull.

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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    First buy a fan and mount it between the shaft and the pulley. Then monitor the temperature.

  18. #16
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    I already did.
    Let me see If I can find some photos and share it here.
    But from the basic concept a fan is not supposed to be part of the unit. It is a means of controling. A problem because I haven't been able to source the correct motor yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Leigh View Post
    First buy a fan and mount it between the shaft and the pulley. Then monitor the temperature.

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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    Do you have 3ph power available?
    If not, then why not look for a rechargeable drill and use the motor and battery from that?

    With a series motor you can control the speed by adjusting the voltage.
    For a normal induction motor, like your washing machine, you need to adjust the freq to change the speed.

    That shaded pole motors is used all over for fans, but they really have just about Zero torq.


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  20. #18
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wetkit View Post
    Do you have 3ph power available?
    If not, then why not look for a rechargeable drill and use the motor and battery from that?

    With a series motor you can control the speed by adjusting the voltage.
    For a normal induction motor, like your washing machine, you need to adjust the freq to change the speed.

    That shaded pole motors is used all over for fans, but they really have just about Zero torq.
    Negative on the 3phase power.

    This is a tumbler with the footprint the size of a clipboard.
    Cordless drill motors are noisy and doubt it would do well running for two hours at a time.

    I machine my own pulleys and the wood is only for concept. I finish it with aluminium pulleys.

    I inicialy brought a sewing machine motor but that had way to little power.

  21. #19
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.


  22. #20
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    Default Re: Starting & Running Capacitors for single phase motors.

    This is what I am working to.

    As I said I have tried five other designs and this is what I have referred to and it works well.
    Only concern is the motor that heats up.

    https://extremetumblers.com/products.html

    https://youtu.be/Gho5ozsiEDs
    Last edited by Karoo Klong; 2019/01/18 at 03:06 PM.

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