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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Thanks for your input Nitebob. There was no indication on your posts that the problem with the master cylinder was a broken pin. This would have led the RCA in another totally different direction. You cannot do an RCA without all the information, hence my speculative RCA.

    So let us continue the RCA with the knowledge at hand. A broken pin on the master cylinder can be caused by:

    1. Wear.
    2. Metal fatigue.
    3. Design.
    4. Unknown cause.

    Wear, metal fatique and design would usually be eliminated as these items are designed to high MTBF's (Mean Time Between Failure) reliability requirements as this is a minor safety but major reliability component which is quick to determine on an FMECA (Failure Mode Eventuality Criticality Analysis) risk analysis matrix. A quick call to Jeep would confirm whether the failure is unusual. The MTBF and FMECA is used by vehicle manufacturers to decide about recalls. But an inspection may find one of these causes. I take it yours didn't because you decided to replace the master cylinder without determining the cause of the failure?

    Therefore we have to assume that the failure was due to an unknown cause. This raises alarm bells and tells us that the RCA is not complete and something else must have caused the failure. The client can then be informed that further investigation for his cost is required. BEFORE replacing the master cylinder.
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  2. #42
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Olyfboer View Post
    You don't. Your diagnosis has to go through the stages of root cause analysis. If this is followed correctly the actual fault will be discovered and not the apparent fault. Not many in the maintenance and repair industry in South Africa can do this as the training is specialised and the technician thus more expensive. But anyone that uses such a technician that can do the analysis soon finds that their misdiagnosis and the cost of hit and miss diagnosis is rapidly reduced and the reputation of the workshop spreads.

    A suggestion might be to contract one of these technicians between several independents on a call out basis?

    Estee, Where did you get the graphs from? I usually use Blanchard and the failures correlate except for one or two. Now I have to open the text books again.
    I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. This is not a NASA moon launch. Before retiring I owned several auto repair shops and if you tried to do this kind of root cause analysis the cost of doing business would be prohibitive. Without replacing the master cylinder there would be no way to know about other issues without removing the gearbox and clutch assembly. No customer would pay for that, nor would it be the right thing to do.
    I'm in the USA at the moment, but a shop in Pretoria is fitting a Remtec remanufactured engine in my Defender and their quote clearly states what the repair is intended to do based on the initial assessment and that any subsequent findings would cost extra. I think the OP was more than fair in his handling of the situation. Unfortunately, these things can still bite you in the rear.
    Last edited by Az2Africa; 2018/12/17 at 06:24 PM.

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  4. #43
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Az2Africa View Post
    I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. This is not a NASA moon launch. Before retiring I owned several auto repair shops and if you tired to do this kind of root cause analysis the cost of doing business would be prohibitive. Without replacing the master cylinder there would be no way to know about other issues without removing the gearbox and clutch assembly. No customer would pay for that, nor would it be the right thing to do.
    I'm in the USA at the moment, but a shop in Pretoria is fitting a Remtec remanufactured engine in my Defender and their quote clearly states the repair is intended to do based on the initial assessment and that any subsequent findings would cost extra. I think the OP was more than fair in his handling of the situation. Unfortunately, these things can still bite you in the rear.
    Thanks for the input. That is exactly what I stated in the analysis. With a broken pin the customer should have been advised that the master cylinder may not be the cause and further investigation would be for his account.

    The "Moon landing" analysis you mentioned took me much less time to do than to type it out. Because I am trained to do it and do it naturally. I also know how MTBF is calculated and how an FMECA is determined and these are in the back of my mind while doing the RCA.

    I still believe an RCA will save time and prevent hit or miss repair diagnosis. So long as the customer is paying for hit or miss it's great. When the repairer starts paying it's not so great.
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  6. #44
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Olyfboer View Post
    Thanks for the input. That is exactly what I stated in the analysis. With a broken pin the customer should have been advised that the master cylinder may not be the cause and further investigation would be for his account.

    The "Moon landing" analysis you mentioned took me much less time to do than to type it out. Because I am trained to do it and do it naturally. I also know how MTBF is calculated and how an FMECA is determined and these are in the back of my mind while doing the RCA.

    I still believe an RCA will save time and prevent hit or miss repair diagnosis. So long as the customer is paying for hit or miss it's great. When the repairer starts paying it's not so great.
    I think we are in agreement but using different terminology and assumptions regarding the technicians level of competence. I always paid top dollar to my technicians and expected a certain level of performance. What you refer to as root cause analysis, We simply called a proper diagnosis. The master cylinder would not be replace until it was determined to be truly nonfunctional and must be replaced in order to proceed with diagnosing any further problems that mays have hastened it's failure. This of course would be been communicated with the client both verbally and in writing. Proper diagnosis is not hit or miss parts replacement (though many mechanics do that) but the search often can go no further without the most glaringly obvious failure being taken care of first.
    When I bought my Defender the clutch felt very stiff. I did a bit of research and decided to replace the dual mass flywheel since resurfacing them is not recommended, the clutch assembly, release bearing and both hydraulic cylinders since they were being overworked. However when the gearbox and transfer case were drained, the shop sent me photos of the magnetic drain plugs with massive amounts of metal stuck to them and a quote for options ranging from rebuilding to replacement. It was painful, but a complete and proper repair in the end that was handled professionally.
    Last edited by Az2Africa; 2018/12/17 at 08:08 PM.

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  8. #45
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitebob View Post
    So a customer phones, problem with a Jeep Compass, no clutch. Get it here, clutch master cylinder is broken. Give the customer a quote (parts only available from Jeep) and he says to go ahead. Once we get the master cylinder in we realize something else is wrong, clutch pedal is hard. Inform the customer the gearbox will have to come out and clutch and concentric slave (also only available from Jeep) replaced. At this stage he asks why we didn't quote him on that from the start. In our defense, we couldn't really depress the broken pedal...but granted, we should've known there must be a reason for it breaking.

    He approves the quote of around R13k, and we do the job. Afterwards: humming from gearbox. Customer insists it was not there before, but takes the car regardless. 3000km later he is back, he cannot live with this noise and we need to fix it. So I phone my local gearbox guy to come have a listen. Gearbox guy says it is the clutch. So I go and buy another clutch (comes as an assembled kit) from Jeep, get the car back in and remove gearbox. We see some metal filings where driveshafts goes in and when you turn the pilot shaft you can feel it is rough and noisy. Get gearbox guy out again. Now changes his tune and says it is the gearbox. Call customer in to see for himself. We agree that it isn't the clutch and replace gearbox without replacing the clutch. 2 weeks later I return the clutch purchased to the dealers.

    6 weeks later he is back. Now there is no clutch. So I go purchase the clutch again. Take out the box and inspect the clutch. Some of the fingers on the pressure plate is damaged. Replace the clutch and send previous clutch to Jeep to inspect for a claim.

    3 Weeks later he is back. No clutch again. So I say to him, I'm sorry but I am not removing the box again. There HAS to be some other issue.

    I have the vehicle towed to Jeep (for my account) They remove the gearbox at a labour charge of R1200 per hour (also for my account) and tells me. No claim on clutch. Gearbox is stuffed. They quote the customer R95k to fix the gearbox. He says no they must just fit another clutch. Jeep says "Sorry, either we fix the box or we don't work on it no more"

    Now the customer says the dealers is lying. I tow the vehicle back from Jeep with the gearbox in the boot. Now the customer says he didn't bring the vehicle to us like that, he wants the gearbox back in. This is now done, but he doesn't want to take the vehicle back without copies of ALL the invoices I paid for from the Agents. The qualification papers of my mechanic. etc etc etc. So he can fight with agents failing which I must either fix the gearbox and clutch or reimburse him.

    There is a good chance that this guy will take me to court and to add to the issue Jeep Century City is closing down. I feel I've been more than accommodating. What do you guys think?
    This is depressing to read! You have done WAY more than what I would have expected from a workshop. It would be a shame if you ended up in court over this, but I know that people like this do exist.

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  10. #46
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Az2Africa View Post
    I think we are in agreement but using different terminology and assumptions regarding the technicians level of competence. I always paid top dollar to my technicians and expected a certain level of performance. What you refer to as root cause analysis, We simply called a proper diagnosis. The master cylinder would not be replace until it was determined to be truly nonfunctional and must be replaced in order to proceed with diagnosing any further problems that mays have hastened it's failure. This of course would be been communicated with the client both verbally and in writing. Proper diagnosis is not hit or miss parts replacement (though many mechanics do that) but the search often can go no further without the most glaringly obvious failure being taken care of first.
    When I bought my Defender the clutch felt very stiff. I did a bit of research and decided to replace the dual mass flywheel since resurfacing them is not recommended, the clutch assembly, release bearing and both hydraulic cylinders since they were being overworked. However when the gearbox and transfer case were drained, the shop sent me photos of the magnetic drain plugs with massive amounts of metal stuck to them and a quote for options ranging from rebuilding to replacement. It was painful, but a complete and proper repair in the end that was handled professionally.
    Looking at your age, you were properly trained in your day. Old artisans/technicians were taught to do RCA but never formally. It was part of their training. RCA is formalised for the engineering profession.
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  12. #47
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Az2Africa View Post
    I think we are in agreement but using different terminology and assumptions regarding the technicians level of competence. I always paid top dollar to my technicians and expected a certain level of performance. What you refer to as root cause analysis, We simply called a proper diagnosis. The master cylinder would not be replace until it was determined to be truly nonfunctional and must be replaced in order to proceed with diagnosing any further problems that mays have hastened it's failure. This of course would be been communicated with the client both verbally and in writing. Proper diagnosis is not hit or miss parts replacement (though many mechanics do that) but the search often can go no further without the most glaringly obvious failure being taken care of first.
    When I bought my Defender the clutch felt very stiff. I did a bit of research and decided to replace the dual mass flywheel since resurfacing them is not recommended, the clutch assembly, release bearing and both hydraulic cylinders since they were being overworked. However when the gearbox and transfer case were drained, the shop sent me photos of the magnetic drain plugs with massive amounts of metal stuck to them and a quote for options ranging from rebuilding to replacement. It was painful, but a complete and proper repair in the end that was handled professionally.
    There is a thread here, I forget the title , where a newish RR has had almost the whole drivetrain replaced in order to nail the source of a vibration.

    Which , needless to say, is still there (the vibration)...

    It drives me mad when garages nowadays just replace stuff as a matter of routine , just stabbing in the dark and throwing money at issues , instead of doing a proper RCA.

    I understand that those vehicles are often under warranty or various insurance plans but to me it's a lazy and wrong practice.


    Cheers
    Last edited by tashtego9; 2018/12/17 at 09:49 PM.

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  15. #49
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    I would agree with this, but in the offshore industry you are paying millions of dollars for that level of service and probably highly qualified engineers.

    I don't disagree with your sentiment, but are you prepared to pay huge $$'s for that level of service for an old vehicle? I don't think many OEM workshops can do this, and they will easily just replace half the vehicle, with no guarantee of fixing the problem and they do this all the time.

    It is really realistic to expect an aftermarket person, to do this? After all, there is probably a reason that this guy did not go to the Jeep dealership, because he wanted it done more cheaply.

    Probably one of the better guys on this forum is Stephen van Tonder. I have been hugely impressed with the rabbit holes he has jumped down, trying to follow a problem that I am sure would stump most OEM workshops.

    I think NiteBob has been very reasonable, but at the same time, I can understand why the customer is frustrated.
    Spot-on!



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  17. #50
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Your priority today is first to make a cup of coffee, extra strong and then go to the agents and check on your warranty claim.

    If they have not finalised it yet, ask if you can take pictures. Pay attention to the straps on the pressure plate and on the clutch plate, the wear on the gear section - where the input shaft slides in. Ask them for a report of why they condemned the replacement gearbox and the condition of the clutch. Check if there is a known issue with that box - always a mechanic that smokes - make friends.

    Write down everything that you said to him regarding the noise in the gearbox the first time and what the mechanics also said. He may turn around and say that you gave him permission to take the vehicle and drive it knowing there was a fault. Write down everything that you can remember.

    Have you got the original clutch.
    Fwd or rwd.
    Petrol or diesel.
    Dmf or normal flywheel. (Assembled usually is a dmf)
    Kilos between failures. (3k first time)
    Any pictures taken at any time.
    Age of driver.
    How did he drive away from your workshop each time.
    Any vibration from the engine - idle and at revs.
    The first time you did the box did you drive it or just listen to it on the ramp and at what speeds.
    When you refitted the gearbox the last time what did it sound like, did it just slip. Was the gearbox noisy.
    How is the front pulley damper.


    Ask the guys
    Did the clutch and parts match up. Any slight differences.
    Was there play on the input shaft.
    Grooves or ridges in the boss where the concentric fits.
    Did the bolts for the concentric tighten up.
    Did any shims or spacers fall out when removing the concentric.
    Can the master cylinder be adjusted, if so where is it adjusted, max, middle etc
    Does it have a pilot bearing.
    How did they fit the dmf. Usually you can only fit it in one position only - bolts are offset.
    Were the input shaft splines ok - no grooves etc.
    Were the locating dowels fitted and in place when gearbox refitted.
    Were all the bolts refitted and the housings pulled together with no gaps anywhere.

    Gearbox guy
    Did he replace the box with what and from where. Has he still got the old box.
    What did he say was cause of failure.
    Or did he recon the box - possibly repeating the same failure as before.
    Was he present when the agents condemned the box, if not what was his response to the failure.

    Bending the pressure plate fingers is unusual - could be incorrect installation - input shaft hits pressure plate, doubt it but possible. Over extension of the concentric or concentric not centered correctly. Gearbox housing issue - check for flatness etc.

    Gearbox could have been damaged from the dmf, incorrect driving habits - eg. Flooring it while in 4th at 40kmh, towing, overloading, big tyres, engine chipped, injector settings and / or timing out etc.

    When and at what kilos was the last service done and by whom.

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  19. #51
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Very interesting and my sympathies rest with the original poster - you did your bit in accordance with current standards of automotive repair in SA; the reasonable man.

    RCA etc is fascinating and necessary in bigger and more complex systems where the consequences of failure can be very onerous eg. aircraft. But my guess is that the diagnostic tools and information is usually more extensive (but school me). My experience is that electronics per kilowatt in say, industrial generators is greater than that for even sophisticated "cars". Each cylinder has its EGT probe with real time output onto a SCADA interface along with output sensor controls, knock sensors, air, oil and water temperatures and pressures at multiple locations, bearing temperatures, all sorts of electrical monitoring and all that, compared to a commercial aircraft is primitive with its chip detectors etc. Then add that there are warnings, then alarms and automatic shutoffs linked to an extensive diagnostic system (ok, some say things like replace an expensive component so need another layer of diagnosis) but they do point an operator in the right direction, noting that access levels into the system are controlled based on code for qualification level. "Tuning" is mostly by emission analysis. Oil changes are from analysis results and component replacement and servicing is by operating hours; ignore at your peril. Spare often have to be airfreighted in, not available off the shelf.

    Somewhat different from the often rather hit and miss methods of even modern "car" repair (component replacement until the problem goes away).

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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitebob View Post
    Thank you for your posts guys. My Mechanic is 65. So I've got that covered.How would one know that the pressure plate is faulty without being able to depress the pedal, because of broken master cylinder? How would one know the pressure plate failed due to the gearbox being shot?I'm not a qualified mechanic, but have been in the motor trade (even trucks) for a while now. A blown headgasket you can argue is a symptom of a failed thermostat / faulty engine fan / blocked radiator etc. A ceased engine due to failed oil pump or no oil maintenance. But surely it is possible that a clutch could just fail?Plus we told him that the gearbox is a problem that needs to be looked at. He has done 7000km since without doing so.
    Am I being thick, but how does a gearbox cause a pressure plate to fail

  21. #53
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by 64056385N View Post
    Am I being thick, but how does a gearbox cause a pressure plate to fail
    Read post 35 from jelo
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Az2Africa View Post
    I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. This is not a NASA moon launch. Before retiring I owned several auto repair shops and if you tried to do this kind of root cause analysis the cost of doing business would be prohibitive
    I beg to differ. I currently have 4 workshops nationally and Techies use a 5 WHY Job card when doing the initial inspection on a failure. The RC is normally determined by the 3rd or 4th ''WHY''. It is rare to get to the 5th. The 5 WHY Job Card also requires the Tech to record the possible causes of failure and then choose the most probable. No extra cost, no schlep, no additional work, no rework, just work done delivered On Time In Full.

    One man's nonsense is anothers professionalism. Unfortunately for the customer, this kind of attitude prevails within the industry with many workshops unwilling, unable or incapable of lifting their game to the next level.
    There is no such thing as inclement weather, only poor selection of clothing.... or Vehicle

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  25. #55
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    I beg to differ. I currently have 4 workshops nationally and Techies use a 5 WHY Job card when doing the initial inspection on a failure. The RC is normally determined by the 3rd or 4th ''WHY''. It is rare to get to the 5th. The 5 WHY Job Card also requires the Tech to record the possible causes of failure and then choose the most probable. No extra cost, no schlep, no additional work, no rework, just work done delivered On Time In Full.

    One man's nonsense is anothers professionalism. Unfortunately for the customer, this kind of attitude prevails within the industry with many workshops unwilling, unable or incapable of lifting their game to the next level.
    What do your workshops service/repair?

  26. #56
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylark View Post
    What do your workshops service/repair?
    Engines, transmissions, drive trains, electrics, electronics, electronic diagnostics, steering mechanisms, hydraulics, fuel systems, bearings, bushings, rebuilds/refurbs and overhauls on the above, servicing, inspections, damage and failures due to negligence, the usual
    Last edited by Estee; 2018/12/19 at 01:18 PM.
    There is no such thing as inclement weather, only poor selection of clothing.... or Vehicle

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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by JuanB View Post
    Read post 35 from jelo
    thanks
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    Engines, transmissions, drive trains, electrics, electronics, electronic diagnostics, steering mechanisms, hydraulics, fuel systems, bearings, bushings, rebuilds/refurbs and overhauls on the above, servicing, inspections, damage and failures due to negligence, the usual
    On what kind of equipment or vehicles?

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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by estee View Post
    hahahahaha, the dunning kruger effect is strong in this one

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/dunnin...3kruger_effect
    :-) :-)
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    Default Re: Am I unreasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    I beg to differ. I currently have 4 workshops nationally and Techies use a 5 WHY Job card when doing the initial inspection on a failure. The RC is normally determined by the 3rd or 4th ''WHY''. It is rare to get to the 5th. The 5 WHY Job Card also requires the Tech to record the possible causes of failure and then choose the most probable. No extra cost, no schlep, no additional work, no rework, just work done delivered On Time In Full.

    One man's nonsense is anothers professionalism. Unfortunately for the customer, this kind of attitude prevails within the industry with many workshops unwilling, unable or incapable of lifting their game to the next level.
    Please explain the 5 WHY Job Card methodology.
    TIA

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