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Thread: Is this it?

  1. #3641
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by m0lt3n View Post
    So your complaint: LR made a vehicle that suits the current you and not the hypothetical you. And thats why it sucks?
    There was no complaint, I was responding to Georges comment that we should simply "embrace change", as Land Rover have.

    Not every body sits in an office all day and for many, "embracing change" because Land Rover did, is not an option, the New Defender wouldn't be a suitable vehicle to "move on" to.

    We aren't simply a bunch of ignorant old luddites, we have some pretty compelling and pragmatic reasons for claiming that the New Defender isn't a suitable replacement for the old.

    The only "moving on" that we have as an option, is to a different brand. Which is fine if Land Rover deem the workhorse market as an unimportant market to them.
    Last edited by Fontuin; 2020/08/14 at 08:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fontuin View Post
    I wonder where the food is going to come from, or the steel, wood, precious metals, building material and who is going to manage game reserves water and electrical infrastructure...?
    They all drive Crooozers, so please check in the Toyota forum.
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Fontuin, I was not referring to the "agricultural" Defender users, but rather the 95% of "normal recreational" users struggling to get to grips that times have moved on. I totally agree that most of the agricultural users might now have reached the end of their LR relationship, unless they simply stick to their current Defenders. I'm sure LR won't be bothered by "losing" 500 farmers and gaining 10000 recreational users. Yes, it sounds rough, but that's business reality.
    Last edited by George; 2020/08/14 at 08:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by oradba69 View Post
    They all drive Crooozers, so please check in the Toyota forum.
    Not really, last years voetspore through south africa stunned me actually, most of the farmers they stayed over with had a 110 bakkie on their farm.

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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fontuin View Post
    There was no complaint, I was responding to Georges comment that we should simply "embrace change", as Land Rover have.

    Not every body sits in an office all day and for many, "embracing change" because Land Rover did, is not an option, the New Defender wouldn't be a suitable vehicle to "move on" to.

    We aren't simply a bunch of ignorant old luddites, we have some pretty compelling and pragmatic reasons for claiming that the New Defender isn't a suitable replacement for the old.

    The only "moving on" that we have as an option, is to a different brand. Which is fine if Land Rover deem the workhorse market as an unimportant market to them.

    I still dont get this argument.

    How many of these people that absolutely need a workhorse to replace their old defender, actually have a late model old Defender?
    Very few, even those became fashion statements or overlanders, a niche that the new Defender can fill.

    And its easy, those late model old defenders is expensive, you will also not go and scratch them to hell and gone just because you can or give them to the skaapwagter.
    And if you did want a new plaasbakkie to give to mr skaapwagter you will either get a Toyota or a Mahindra Karoo.

    Do people really expect LR to facelift the old Defender and continue selling 3 a month? Just to satisfy the purists.

  9. #3646
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    I do believe Land Rover has lost sight of a very important part of their brand. Every time you see Lara Croft in a Landy. When you see the UN or some other Aid agency helping out flood victims or UNTAG or whatever other work in a faraway place makes the news your average Defender driver is reminded that he too could do that. No matter how many kerbs he jumps or Bush trips he misses he could if he wanted to. Like the guy in one of the first Outsurance adds who kits his Defender with his out bonus.

    The Toyota drivers get the same thrill every time they see Somali warlords or Isis terrorists with the Machine gun fitted Hiluxes and Cruisers. It excites their inner bad boy and appeases the guilt over the appliance driving mundane approach to life.

    Maybe not today but in around 10 years Land Rover will wonder why nobody is prepared to pay a premium for just another SUV that is no better than the X3 or Q5 next to it. The fact that if you wanted to all Land Rovers are capable of going into the bush caries more weight than Land Rover realizes. It is the reason that Jeep claims all their vehicles are trail rated. Also why despite the cost and small demand they have kept the Wrangler current. They know that without it the are just another American motors waiting to go under.

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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoMatt View Post
    I do believe Land Rover has lost sight of a very important part of their brand. Every time you see Lara Croft in a Landy. When you see the UN or some other Aid agency helping out flood victims or UNTAG or whatever other work in a faraway place makes the news your average Defender driver is reminded that he too could do that. No matter how many kerbs he jumps or Bush trips he misses he could if he wanted to. Like the guy in one of the first Outsurance adds who kits his Defender with his out bonus.

    The Toyota drivers get the same thrill every time they see Somali warlords or Isis terrorists with the Machine gun fitted Hiluxes and Cruisers. It excites their inner bad boy and appeases the guilt over the appliance driving mundane approach to life.
    DiscoMatt, you are absolutely right, for a company to keep a foothold in the aid/work/'terrorist' market is important as it provides a lot of exposure and publicity.

    I only slightly disagree with your first paragraph.

    UN and similar hardly bought any LRs in the last 20 years, probably the jap alternative offered better value.

    However your argument stands that customers like to see a 'working' version of their vehicle.

    In fact I wouldn't be surprised if LR start building some bare bones new defenders especially for that use.
    Last edited by tashtego9; 2020/08/14 at 09:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by m0lt3n View Post
    I still dont get this argument.

    How many of these people that absolutely need a workhorse to replace their old defender, actually have a late model old Defender?
    Very few, even those became fashion statements or overlanders, a niche that the new Defender can fill.

    And its easy, those late model old defenders is expensive, you will also not go and scratch them to hell and gone just because you can or give them to the skaapwagter.
    And if you did want a new plaasbakkie to give to mr skaapwagter you will either get a Toyota or a Mahindra Karoo.

    Do people really expect LR to facelift the old Defender and continue selling 3 a month? Just to satisfy the purists.
    So, you are saying that LR is now for posers, city folk, and wannabees?
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
    So, you are saying that LR is now for posers, city folk, and wannabees?
    love your work
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Well, one thing I've never quite understood, is why there are so many Defenders driving around Cape Town, but so few 7x-series Cruisers? Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture, but it seems like there are at least 3-4 Defenders for every Cruiser. The "Defender image" carries a lot of weight around these parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
    So, you are saying that LR is now for posers, city folk, and wannabees?

  16. #3651
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by dph View Post
    Well, one thing I've never quite understood, is why there are so many Defenders driving around Cape Town, but so few 7x-series Cruisers? Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture, but it seems like there are at least 3-4 Defenders for every Cruiser. The "Defender image" carries a lot of weight around these parts.
    and here where we are, 4 x more Wranglers and 2 x more LC70 series than Defenders these days

    So the question is: are CT Defender owners indeed posers? Do you really NEED a Defender when you could use Uber and the bus and the train to get to 90% of places in CT? In a city where people think that a trip to Malmesbury needs to be overnight 'cos it so FAR?

    (TIC guys )
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by m0lt3n View Post
    I still dont get this argument.

    How many of these people that absolutely need a workhorse to replace their old defender, actually have a late model old Defender?
    Very few, even those became fashion statements or overlanders, a niche that the new Defender can fill.

    And its easy, those late model old defenders is expensive, you will also not go and scratch them to hell and gone just because you can or give them to the skaapwagter.
    And if you did want a new plaasbakkie to give to mr skaapwagter you will either get a Toyota or a Mahindra Karoo.

    Do people really expect LR to facelift the old Defender and continue selling 3 a month? Just to satisfy the purists.
    I was simply pointing out the fact that the New Defender is not a option for many owners of the old Defender for good reason (not because we are purirsts).

    As for the rest of your comments, they are interesting discussions in their own right, the answers to which you may find in this 3000+ post thread, or start another thread, I'm not going to regurgitate the same old arguments again.

    Here is a thread that I started on why I chose a Defender over a LC70.

    https://www.4x4community.co.za/forum...light=Defender
    Last edited by Fontuin; 2020/08/14 at 10:07 AM.
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  18. #3653
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by dph View Post
    Well, one thing I've never quite understood, is why there are so many Defenders driving around Cape Town, but so few 7x-series Cruisers? Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture, but it seems like there are at least 3-4 Defenders for every Cruiser. The "Defender image" carries a lot of weight around these parts.
    Don't mess up a fairy tale with facts...
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  19. #3654
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
    So, you are saying that LR is now for posers, city folk, and wannabees?
    I imagine I qualify as "city folk" as I live in Gauteng, in a city. As does most of the population with the type of expendable income required to buy a new 4x4 vehicle.

    So most of us are indeed "city folk".

    Why do you phrase it like it is a bad thing? Should you live somewhere on the Platteland or a farm to somehow be considered superior?

  20. #3655
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    and here where we are, 4 x more Wranglers and 2 x more LC70 series than Defenders these days

    So the question is: are CT Defender owners indeed posers? Do you really NEED a Defender when you could use Uber and the bus and the train to get to 90% of places in CT? In a city where people think that a trip to Malmesbury needs to be overnight 'cos it so FAR?

    (TIC guys )
    You should see the amount of Cruisers "cruising" around here living in luxury estates, going on the school run, commuting to work, going to the mall, everything with some massive cattle kraal lookalike construction on the back.

    A lot of them might get used once or twice a year for a hunting trip which is about the sum total of their real "work".

    Do they also qualify for "poser" status?

    I just don't get why there are parameters as to how I must use my vehicle that I bought, to be considered "genuine" and not a "poser"?
    Last edited by JS-V8; 2020/08/14 at 11:56 AM.

  21. #3656
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by JS-V8 View Post
    I just don't get why there are parameters as to how I must use my vehicle that I bought, to be considered "genuine" and not a "poser"?
    You did note the TIC comment?

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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by JS-V8 View Post

    I just don't get why there are parameters as to how I must use my vehicle that I bought, to be considered "genuine" and not a "poser"?
    It's okay, we understand. What I cannot understand is that you miss the concept of what a Defender drivers lifestyle, and needs, and the Defender's use has been over the years to create that "image" it has now..... So if you buy the new Defender, due to it's image, but cannot hark to the original reason that it has that image, then what are you doing other than, posing?
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  24. #3658
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
    It's okay, we understand. What I cannot understand is that you miss the concept of what a Defender drivers lifestyle, and needs, and the Defender's use has been over the years to create that "image" it has now..... So if you buy the new Defender, due to it's image, but cannot hark to the original reason that it has that image, then what are you doing other than, posing?
    indeed

    the original Defender was a perfect example of where form followed function

    the new one is designed as form following status or image

    Yes, it can possibly do some trails, but that isn't the primary function.
    Yes, it could possibly be used for mild overlanding, but.......
    Yes, it will be great in the city, because that is its primary function.
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    I think everybody must just wait, these words are echoing the same words from years back.

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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
    It's okay, we understand. What I cannot understand is that you miss the concept of what a Defender drivers lifestyle, and needs, and the Defender's use has been over the years to create that "image" it has now..... So if you buy the new Defender, due to it's image, but cannot hark to the original reason that it has that image, then what are you doing other than, posing?
    We are all posers one way or the other.

    Even the hardcore use described by a few here could be achieved with a used Mahindra bakkie. The city slickers can use a minivan for 99.9% of their city life and rent a 4x4 for the one time a year they need to overland.

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