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Thread: Is this it?

  1. #2861
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceT View Post
    Ah now I see your point of view Fontuin. You not into any particular brand or shape of vehicle,
    Correct. Best vehicle for the job at a reasonable price.

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceT View Post
    Strange since youíve had two Landyís (I assume from what youíve said) rather than other vehicles.
    Series 11A, 3 x Series 111s, 2 x 300 Tdi 110 Pick-Ups, 1 x 110 V8 Pick-Up, 1 x 300 Tdi 110 CSW, 1 x Td5 110 CSW, 1 x Puma 110 CSW, Freelander 2, 2 x Discovery 2 Td5s. My mother owned a Discovery 3 which I drove extensively and she currently owns a Freelander 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceT View Post
    The D2 is the only disco I've never owned based on choice. Strange that you have one rather than a Mazda, Ford, or Toyota bakkie as the D2 was renowned for several issues.
    I paid R 60 k for my previous D2 it met it's demise a little more than a year ago at 390 000 km, VNT, intercooler and a map broke the torque converter. I'm selling for spares so I'll recover whatever it cost me.

    I've had my current D2 for a little over a year. Total cost so far around R 100 k, that includes buying the vehicle and some improvements. I bought it because I had the other one for spares and I could salvage some of the improvements I made to that. Turbo, sound, bumpers ... etc. I doubt I'll buy another one.

    A good double cab cost 50% more and a Prado double the price.

    It's probably the best value for money vehicle that can be bought, if you know what to look for.

    Also I like D2s, they're interesting unique vehicles. It's also a bit of a hobby. When I get some spare time I'll fit a VNT turbo. Redo the interior etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceT View Post
    A ranger bakkie. Perhaps I should introduce you to a mate of mine thatís on his second gearbox on his 2 year old ranger that is only used to tow jet skis. Any other make is probably better than a ranger.
    We had a 4.0l Ranger. After the 4th gearbox we gave it back to the dealer.

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceT View Post
    but ja I get your point, I would far rather have a 2004 Defender than a D2 also purely because I think itís more practical with possibly less electronics.
    D2 is a far better daily drive and living in town I'm willing to take the risk of a break down. Wife gives me a lift to the workshop and again to collect it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceT View Post
    ps. Most of us buy our vehicles with our ďhard earned cashĒ . I would pretty much almost drive anything if i was given a vehicle ��
    Obviously. I'd have a big body Range Rover.
    2004 Land Rover Discovery 2 Td5 ES

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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fontuin View Post
    Looks don't bother me too much. I'm more interested in what the vehicle has to offer. BT 50 was just what my friend happened to drive for that specific trip where there was also a far more expensive luxury SUV for comparison. It was the previous generation BT50, the new versions are substantially better.



    So just to be clear...

    No doubt that an independently air sprung vehicle will be the most comfortable on a corrugated gravel road.

    A Prado will be more comfortable than a BT50, and the Prado is the vehicle that I'd rather be in to do that 300 - 500 km stretch but...

    To answer your question, it depends on the application.

    If I had to buy the vehicle with my own hard earned cash and..

    1. ...the over-landing bug ever bit again and I did an annual or bi-annual trip to some "remote" part of Africa it would not make sense to me to pay an extra R 500 k or whatever, just to be more comfortable on the very odd occasion that I may encounter a 500 km track when I'm doing 20 000 km a year (an average traveling distance per year). So I'll only see any benefit from the R 500 k more expensive vehicle for .025% of the time, if I do a track like that once a year. So I'd take the BT 50 if the choice were between the Prado and the BT 50. Off the top of my head I'd probably buy a 2.2 TDCI XL Ranger Double cab given the choice of any vehicle.

    I've done much of Southern Africa, Namibia, Kgalagadi, Mabusehube, CKGR, Moreme, Chobe, a little bit of Zambia and Zimbabwe,, Mozambique and most of South Africa. Your over-landing experience is greater than mine so you will know better than me that much of these over-landing trips are on long sections of tar and low speed sandy tracks once you've reached your destination. Namibia's gravel roads for example are better than many of our tar roads.

    2. ...I used to travel around 15 000 km of corrugated gravel a year. My experience in conditions like that is that simpler is better. Complicated vehicles become a nightmare, there is always something going wrong form the continuous dust and vibration. So there I'd have the BT 50, if I had to choose between the BT 50 and the Prado, I drove a Defender in those days. Even the Discovery 2 that I owned became a nightmare. Interestingly since I've moved to town I have only seen the 3 amigos once, and that was on a trip to the Orange River where I had to drive a section of thick sand. While I was doing the gravel daily, they were regular visitors.
    Had a BT 50 ( daily drive ) and D3 , BT most probable the bakkie with the softest suspension , good on gravel and comfortable on tar up to about 200km before I needed to stop and stretch some legs hips and back , were as with the D3 , better on gravel and I can go all day long . As far as I am concerned there is no comparison . D3 you wonít even notice gear-changes , BT still got old tech auto gearbox ( slip between gear changes ) and so I can carry on 2 vastly different vehicles . The Prado ( went down to henties with one ) is excellent and if a R500 000 fortuner is as good we all should go and buy one immediately ,although I find it hard to believe .
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by cor View Post
    The Prado ( went down to henties with one ) is excellent and if a R500 000 fortuner is as good we all should go and buy one immediately ,although I find it hard to believe .
    I think it's more about being adequate or good enough, rather than "as good".

    I'm not suggesting that a Fortuner is as good a Prado or a D5 or the New Defender, but it's not hundreds of thousands of Rand worse. Like I said earlier, it's not like 40 years ago where the choice was between a hard as a rock 50 kW Hi-Lux or Series 111 Land Rover with a top speed of 90 km/h, noise levels so high it was difficult to think and so much heat that you could fry an egg on the transmission tunnel, or a Range Rover.

    The gap has closed considerably since then.

    In fact the gap has closed considerably since the last generation of Fortuner type vehicles to the current ones.
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fontuin View Post
    I think it's more about being adequate or good enough, rather than "as good".

    I'm not suggesting that a Fortuner is as good a Prado or a D5 or the New Defender, but it's not hundreds of thousands of Rand worse. Like I said earlier, it's not like 40 years ago where the choice was between a hard as a rock 50 kW Hi-Lux or Series 111 Land Rover with a top speed of 90 km/h, noise levels so high it was difficult to think and so much heat that you could fry an egg on the transmission tunnel, or a Range Rover.

    The gap has closed considerably since then.

    In fact the gap has closed considerably since the last generation of Fortuner type vehicles to the current ones.
    My mother in law is adequate or good enough
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    This thread started as a Defender review thread now has become a free for all thread. Firstly, I find it difficult to compare SUV's with double cabs. Again it is dependent on overall usage. I have a farm so the double cab is a lot more useful than an SUV but if I could afford the new Defender I would probably prefer that for out bush trips. The double cab packs a lot and being a Ford is very comfortable on dirt roads which we drive every day. Looking forward to when I can actually walk around, sit in and then drive the new Defender. In the mean time my Ford Double cab is more than enough.
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by cor View Post
    My mother in law is adequate or good enough
    Hahaha


    i have just been watching the guys in Australia called 4WD Action on YouTube. Now I agree, if you did those kind of trips where you are winching every few Kms and in some cases every few hundred meters, you want something tough and modified like their vehicles. Most vehicles they use for example have double lockers, improved suspension, and huge wheels.
    As much as I and most others on this forum would like to do those sorts of trips, I just don’t believe many people here do those types of trips. If we did then pretty much most of our vehicles wouldn’t last before being damaged or finish some of those trips. If I did those sorts of trips, firstly my wife wouldn’t come with and I would need something like a patrol Bakkie or land cruiser 70 series (is that the bakkie?) with huge wheels, modified suspension and lockers front and back but then to live with that in JHB traffic would be crap.

    for my purposes the new defender, 200 series, most 4x4 bakkies, discos, fortuners and Prados etc would do the job as well as each other as long as they had decent tyres fitted. Another thing I consider is the safety and comfort of my family, which, unfortunately the old defender couldn’t offer and as a Landy fan the new defender will get me close to the old defenders character and still keep my family happy and safe.
    Last edited by BruceT; 2020/04/07 at 05:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikevR View Post
    This thread started as a Defender review thread now has become a free for all thread. Firstly, I find it difficult to compare SUV's with double cabs. Again it is dependent on overall usage. I have a farm so the double cab is a lot more useful than an SUV but if I could afford the new Defender I would probably prefer that for out bush trips. The double cab packs a lot and being a Ford is very comfortable on dirt roads which we drive every day. Looking forward to when I can actually walk around, sit in and then drive the new Defender. In the mean time my Ford Double cab is more than enough.

    Apologies Mike Iím one of the guilty but itís been an interesting discussion.
    BruceT
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceT View Post
    ...land cruiser 70 series (is that the bakkie?) ...
    76 is the station wagon, 78 troop carrier (hard top), 79 pick up (double and single cab). They are all 70 series.

    That's how I understand it.
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceT View Post
    Apologies Mike Iím one of the guilty but itís been an interesting discussion.
    I don't think that the discussion has been OT. Surely pricing and competitors to the New Defender and how it fits in to the market are all relevant to the thread?
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    BruceT
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fontuin View Post
    I think it's more about being adequate or good enough, rather than "as good".

    I'm not suggesting that a Fortuner is as good a Prado or a D5 or the New Defender, but it's not hundreds of thousands of Rand worse. Like I said earlier, it's not like 40 years ago where the choice was between a hard as a rock 50 kW Hi-Lux or Series 111 Land Rover with a top speed of 90 km/h, noise levels so high it was difficult to think and so much heat that you could fry an egg on the transmission tunnel, or a Range Rover.

    The gap has closed considerably since then.

    In fact the gap has closed considerably since the last generation of Fortuner type vehicles to the current ones.
    True.

    Prado is bigger yes, a little wider yes but having driven TX for 10 years nearly, I drove new fortuner many times and did not feel it's different both on rough stuff to Prado TX.

    It's very different though to Prado VXL. That one does feel more comfortable (those air springs and kdss?) and premium. Quieter too. Probably has more sound deadening than TX.

    Back to the defender, I would say the 110 d240 is in Prado VXL territory. A new Prado 150 (ok, 180?) iland LC300 are coming early 2021 hopefully and I'm sure they will have all their guns pointing to the defender. It's game on.

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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Once Namib tour operators start using the new Defender I will think of buying one. I mean it needs to survive at least 10 years of every day slogging dunes fully loaded like many of the vehicles used by operators does.

    All the links and videos are nice but it does not prove reliability or longevity. Looking at the list of future owners we will soon have real world experience logged. But really guys you are willing to spend serious money on a 4x4 with no pedigree. I would hang in there for at least 2 years before pulling the trigger.
    It is not what you buy its what you build.

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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Comparing Fortuner with Prado take into account that the bottom Fortuner is only 2x4!!Start looking at the 4x4 then price is closer.
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by grips View Post
    Once Namib tour operators start using the new Defender I will think of buying one. I mean it needs to survive at least 10 years of every day slogging dunes fully loaded like many of the vehicles used by operators does.

    All the links and videos are nice but it does not prove reliability or longevity. Looking at the list of future owners we will soon have real world experience logged. But really guys you are willing to spend serious money on a 4x4 with no pedigree. I would hang in there for at least 2 years before pulling the trigger.
    There is more to life than just dunes. FJ cruiser is good at dunes but leaves a little bit to be desired in other departments.

    No ways it will be more reliable than a Cruiser or old Defender but most people buying it now are not going to care that it doesn't last 400 000km because it will be gone at 80k
    Last edited by Byron; 2020/04/07 at 11:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron View Post
    No ways it will be more reliable than a Cruiser
    Of course you don't know that.

    but most people buying it now are not going to care that it doesn't last 400 000km
    Come on now... Get real.

    because it will be gone at 80k
    Prophet of doom ?

    Give the product a chance.
    Last edited by byaru1; 2020/04/07 at 10:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by byaru1 View Post
    Of course you don't know that.



    Come on now... Get real.



    Prophet of doom ?

    Give the product a chance.
    Haha no not a profit of doom, I think it will be an excellent vehicle. But I just find it hard to believe after having owned Defenders and a Disco 4 and a Disco Sport that it will be more reliable due to the amount of electronics and complexity. Bear in mind I'm talking in a few years, I don't foresee it having many issues in early life, the problem comes out of warrnaty when the next set of owners buy it.

    Same as D3 and D4, I haven't heard of many owners complain about the reliability below 100k, I loved mine and it was faultless, but when you get to 150k to 200k the reviews are mixed. Some had no issues and others have almost been bankrupted because of it. This vehicle is alot more complex then D4 so the odds are stacked against them. This isn't a brand thing either it's the class of vehicle, any complex new generation 4x4 will be riskier as it ages.


    I'll probably buy one, was planning for this year but maybe not anymore but I won't keep it out of maintenance plan the same as I will sell our Disco Sport before warranty ends.

    The trend lately is for people to replace their cars every 3 to 5yrs, read the stat somewhere will they find the source. That's who car manufacturers build cars for, not the guy who waits for it to be 5yrs old to buy it 2nd hand.

    The car suits my needs but I wouldn't roll into a war with one like I would an old Defender or Cruiser.

    I hope I'm wrong, we will only know in a few years because no amount of testing can match real world conditions when driven by an idiot or maintained by Joe Soap out of warranty.

    I definitely think they nailed their target market though and it is going to sell in thousands.
    Last edited by Byron; 2020/04/07 at 11:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron View Post
    There is more to life than just dunes. FJ cruiser is good at dunes but crap at most other things.
    Oh really? Do tell, please.
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    Oh really? Do tell, please.
    No doubt vehicles work hard in the dunes but I don't see the FJ as a good overlander without there being a diesel option but each to their own. But we off topic, we will agree to disagree, let's stick to the Defender.
    Last edited by Byron; 2020/04/07 at 10:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron View Post
    Haha no not a profit of doom, I think it will be an excellent vehicle. But I just find it hard to believe after having owned Defenders and a Disco 4 and a Disco Sport that it will be more reliable due to the amount of electronics and complexity. Bear in mind I'm talking in a few years, I don't foresee it having many issues in early life, the problem comes out of warrnaty when the next set of owners buy it.

    Same as D3 and D4, I haven't heard of many owners complain about the reliability below 100k, I loved mine and it was faultless, but when you get to 150k to 200k the reviews are mixed. Some had no issues and others have almost been bankrupted because of it. This vehicle is alot more complex then D4 so the odds are stacked against them. This isn't a brand thing either it's the class of vehicle, any complex new generation 4x4 will be riskier as it ages.
    I think that there is some scientific/engineering relationship between complexity, operating conditions and failure rate?

    I think it can be predicted to one degree or another?

    I think that Estee has some level of expertise on the subject? If it is so, perhaps he would be so kind as to explain it to us, with graphs and stuff, in a different thread? Or maybe he already has and he can just post us a link?
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    Default Re: Is this it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron View Post
    Haha no not a profit of doom, I think it will be an excellent vehicle. But I just find it hard to believe after having owned Defenders and a Disco 4 and a Disco Sport that it will be more reliable due to the amount of electronics and complexity. Bear in mind I'm talking in a few years, I don't foresee it having many issues in early life, the problem comes out of warrnaty when the next set of owners buy it.

    Same as D3 and D4, I haven't heard of many owners complain about the reliability below 100k, I loved mine and it was faultless, but when you get to 150k to 200k the reviews are mixed. Some had no issues and others have almost been bankrupted because of it. This vehicle is alot more complex then D4 so the odds are stacked against them. This isn't a brand thing either it's the class of vehicle, any complex new generation 4x4 will be riskier as it ages.


    I'll probably buy one, was planning for this year but maybe not anymore but I won't keep it out of maintenance plan the same as I will sell our Disco Sport before warranty ends.

    The trend lately is for people to replace their cars every 3 to 5yrs, read the stat somewhere will they find the source. That's who car manufacturers build cars for, not the guy who waits for it to be 5yrs old to buy it 2nd hand.

    The car suits my needs but I wouldn't roll into a war with one like I would an old Defender or Cruiser.

    I hope I'm wrong, we will only know in a few years because no amount of testing can match real world conditions when driven by an idiot or maintained by Joe Soap out of warranty.

    I definitely think they nailed their target market though and it is going to sell in thousands.
    Thanks Byron, as always a very good post with good insight.
    It is not what you buy its what you build.

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