Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?




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  1. #1
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    Default Solar Inverter chargers - can the 220V AC be powered directly by the PV?

    I've been wondering with Solar Inverter chargers like the Axpert Hybrid models how does the 220V ac inverter output get powered, can it run solely off of the PV on a sunny day?
    This model for example:
    https://www.sustainable-energy-solut...pt-220v-24v-dc

    Can they function like that without a battery connected?

    I'm assuming in the above scenario a battery connected to the system would help even out any PV output fluctuations and is the preferable setup?
    Last edited by Skylark; 2018/08/29 at 12:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers - can the 220V AC be powered directly by the PV?

    Anyone?

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers - can the 220V AC be powered directly by the PV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylark View Post
    I've been wondering with Solar Inverter chargers like the Axpert Hybrid models how does the 220V ac inverter output get powered, can it run solely off of the PV on a sunny day?
    This model for example:
    https://www.sustainable-energy-solut...pt-220v-24v-dc

    Can they function like that without a battery connected?

    I'm assuming in the above scenario a battery connected to the system would help even out any PV output fluctuations and is the preferable setup?
    Your assumption is quite correct.
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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers - can the 220V AC be powered directly by the PV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Your assumption is quite correct.
    Thanks, theoretically if the pv was in full sun with a cloudless sky and the pv array had sufficient output could the pv run the inverter and power a 220v AC device on its own with no battery connected?
    Last edited by Skylark; 2018/08/30 at 08:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers - can the 220V AC be powered directly by the PV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylark View Post
    Thanks, theoretically if the pv was in full sun with a cloudless sky and the pv array had sufficient output could the pv run the inverter and power a 220v AC device on its own with no battery connected?
    Yes

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?

    That particular model inverter would not function without a battery connected.
    There are inverters available (from the same manufacturer) that can work with or without a battery.

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?

    My little kit gives 19.5volts direct off the panel, hence the need for a regulated supply.

    While they say you can run a load (12v fridge) directly off the MPPT (and it is 15% more efficient that putting it through a battery)
    they specifically say NOT to run an inverter directly from the MPPT.
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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallhorse View Post
    My little kit gives 19.5volts direct off the panel, hence the need for a regulated supply.

    While they say you can run a load (12v fridge) directly off the MPPT (and it is 15% more efficient that putting it through a battery)
    they specifically say NOT to run an inverter directly from the MPPT.
    So you could run the fridge directly off a MPPT 12V output, that would probably need to be a MPPT designed specifically for that scenario?

    In most of these systems if you have a battery connected and there's full sun on the pv and you are using the 12v dc output and inverter to power devices does the charger inverter dynamically draw the energy directly from the pv or does it use the battery as a "reservoir" per say which is being constantly fed by the pv output.

    I'd like to understand how a system with an inverter charger and battery under full sun utilises the pv output vs the battery and if the pv under full sun and battery capacity is summed, ie say if using an inverter you can utilise more wattage than if it was nighttime and only drawing from the battery.

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?

    All the boreholes on a friends farm is running only from the panel no batteries, 12 volt pumps but can take up to 48 volts. Running everyday, keep all the waterholes full

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylark View Post
    So you could run the fridge directly off a MPPT 12V output, that would probably need to be a MPPT designed specifically for that scenario?

    In most of these systems if you have a battery connected and there's full sun on the pv and you are using the 12v dc output and inverter to power devices does the charger inverter dynamically draw the energy directly from the pv or does it use the battery as a "reservoir" per say which is being constantly fed by the pv output.

    I'd like to understand how a system with an inverter charger and battery under full sun utilises the pv output vs the battery and if the pv under full sun and battery capacity is summed, ie say if using an inverter you can utilise more wattage than if it was nighttime and only drawing from the battery.
    Well, my MPPT has a DC port as well as a battery charging port. Power priority is the DC port if connected. Any surplus power will be stored in the battery. I assume the charging of the battery has a loss as it is not perfect efficient system .

    Since this is my first MPPT I dont know if this is normal or not.

    I dont quite understand your last Sentence. The inverter can only use power if connected to a load. The load would be the same regardless of power source. That said the inverter does use power when on, as it too is not a perfect system
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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallhorse View Post
    Well, my MPPT has a DC port as well as a battery charging port. Power priority is the DC port if connected. Any surplus power will be stored in the battery. I assume the charging of the battery has a loss as it is not perfect efficient system .

    Since this is my first MPPT I dont know if this is normal or not.

    I dont quite understand your last Sentence. The inverter can only use power if connected to a load. The load would be the same regardless of power source. That said the inverter does use power when on, as it too is not a perfect system
    I was referring to if I had an over speccd inverter in terms of the battery size/output, batteries can power 3kva but it's a 5Kva inverter, under full sun could I run that inverter past 3kva(load on the inverter) due to the batteries and pv output being summed/combined?
    Last edited by Skylark; 2018/09/08 at 03:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?

    Axpert programming manual answers your questions concerning power output priorities and settings. Applicable to most inverters. Obviously loads can only be supplied to limit of inverter's Kva ratings
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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylark View Post
    So you could run the fridge directly off a MPPT 12V output, that would probably need to be a MPPT designed specifically for that scenario?



    In most of these systems if you have a battery connected and there's full sun on the pv and you are using the 12v dc output and inverter to power devices does the charger inverter dynamically draw the energy directly from the pv or does it use the battery as a "reservoir" per say which is being constantly fed by the pv output.

    I'd like to understand how a system with an inverter charger and battery under full sun utilises the pv output vs the battery and if the pv under full sun and battery capacity is summed, ie say if using an inverter you can utilise more wattage than if it was nighttime and only drawing from the battery.
    I would say you cannot run a house type fridge directly from the panels. My frigde can use up to 1800W to start and only 100W while running. This is a small freezer and also the newer compressors tend to run nearly all day. Older Samsung bar fridge would only come on about once an hour and run for 3min max before switching off.

    Now that I have a solar setup I can try to answer you. Even if a battery is 50% or more depleted and panels can supply the actual load during full sun you will find the battery is supplying a portion of the load and becomes more depleted. The panel is perhaps supplying 75%.

    This is on a system with Victron MPPT controller.

    Also my top 4 daily instantaneously yields from my mono panel I got during overcast weather and not full sun. About 10% more than on clear days with full sunshine. The actual yield from the panel jumps all over the place with cloud but the maximum is higher than in full sun. Strange but true. A good example was 2 days ago in Gauteng. That day gave me an all time high. The system is connected to a single fixed load that is on and off at any time.
    Last edited by ekkekan; 2018/10/05 at 05:57 PM. Reason: Added info at the top

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?

    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Also my top 4 daily instantaneously yields from my mono panel I got during overcast weather and not full sun. About 10% more than on clear days with full sunshine. The actual yield from the panel jumps all over the place with cloud but the maximum is higher than in full sun. Strange but true. A good example was 2 days ago in Gauteng. That day gave me an all time high. The system is connected to a single fixed load that is on and off at any time.
    When it is cloudy with moisture in the air and the sun comes out, the 'air' is clearer, less dust particles in the air.

    My highest amps reading is during a rainy/sunshine day. When the sun comes thru just after a downpour you get a real spike.

    We tend to not factor in the haze during a normal sunny day. Realy buggers with your efficiency.

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?

    Thanks a lot for the reason for high yield as the sun wants to break through the clouds. So we keep on learning.

    I still need to find out why a say 250W panel in full sun with a MPPT controller with battery even at 10.8V under a load would not deliver more than about 190W to the battery? I never see this factored in in calculations.

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?

    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Thanks a lot for the reason for high yield as the sun wants to break through the clouds. So we keep on learning.

    I still need to find out why a say 250W panel in full sun with a MPPT controller with battery even at 10.8V under a load would not deliver more than about 190W to the battery? I never see this factored in in calculations.
    Angle to the sun, perhaps?

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?

    Before I fixed the panel I did some checks and found only in the early morning and late afternoon did the angle provide a higher yield. Panel is pointing north at a angle of 26 degrees which is my latitude. During midday hours I found very little gain to point perpendicular to the sun.

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers- can the 220V ac be powered directly off of the PV?

    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Thanks a lot for the reason for high yield as the sun wants to break through the clouds. So we keep on learning.

    I still need to find out why a say 250W panel in full sun with a MPPT controller with battery even at 10.8V under a load would not deliver more than about 190W to the battery? I never see this factored in in calculations.
    Panel ratings is a bit like car fuel consumption figures - measured under ideal lab conditions. Most/Some panels do indicate Optimal output, as well as Expected output under typical conditions. My 325W panel is rated at 280W typical, and that is what I used in calculations.

    Temperature plays a big part, as optimal output is at stable lower temperatures, and as the panel invariably heats up in the sun, output becomes less optimal. Panels that do not allow for some free air movement shows decreased performance
    Last edited by SAND; 2018/10/05 at 09:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Solar Inverter chargers - can the 220V AC be powered directly by the PV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylark View Post
    I've been wondering with Solar Inverter chargers like the Axpert Hybrid models how does the 220V ac inverter output get powered, can it run solely off of the PV on a sunny day?
    This model for example:
    https://www.sustainable-energy-solut...pt-220v-24v-dc

    Can they function like that without a battery connected?

    I'm assuming in the above scenario a battery connected to the system would help even out any PV output fluctuations and is the preferable setup?
    Answers have been given for the Axpert with priority settings. For most MPPT the way I understand it you need to 1st connect a battery for it to be able to select the voltage and also the battery type. This does influence how the controller provides an output. Thus even if it is a small battery I think its best to have a battery.

    If the 220V is used for any motor like a fridge the panels will not be able to supply the vey high start current.

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