Is it time to go Lithium? - Page 4




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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    Quote Originally Posted by glamprecht View Post
    One of the biggest disadvantages of rechargeable lithium batteries is the operating temperature. I did not find reference to temperature on the product links that were posted. It appears that eastern exporters and manufacturers conveniently avoid that issue and deal with it in a general disclaimer somewhere in the back of the manual. US and Europe sources provide proper datasheets and are open to a liability claim if they mislead consumers. The batteries will reach thermal runaway only if the operating temperature is exceeded typically during a charge cycle. The operating temperature of all the lithium batteries that I have seen from reputable source that care to take responsibility and guarantee full charging under stated temperatures were 40'C ambient. Outdoor environments in the northern regions of the country exceed that, thus you cannot use these batteries for outdoor applications.

    Typically in industrial applications equipment need to be rated, guaranteed, and environmentally tested to 60'C or 75'C. I have not found LiPo battery packs with this capability, but will be happy to read more if anyone else on the forum have seen extended temperature batteries that are suitable for outdoor use.
    Just because 60 or 75C is typical doesn't mean it is mandatory or the only specification. It is 100% acceptable to have very different specifications and to also have climatized facilities. So yes, Lithium technology batteries are very mainstream in cell phone repeater towers, even in the midday sun in the Northern Cape. Why, because they are in air conditioned enclosures, just like the remainder of the electronics n the towers.

    There are literally hundreds if not thousands of cases where reduced temp range equipment is deployed in industry, and the problems are overcome in just as many ways.

    EDIT - I wonder how many people have left a black high power LED torch with Li batteries in the sun while camping.
    Last edited by Fluffy; 2018/08/06 at 12:27 PM.
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  2. #62
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Adding a DC-DC charger to your alternator example changes everything.

    Especially seeing as there are some nice fully integrated systems available that does DC-DC from alternator, and/or Solar PV and also include low voltage cut-outs and and and......

    Very true, the DC-DC chargers do solve the problem of low input voltage and work perfectly for long trips, but because the amps drop when you increase the voltage the charging period is very long, in most cases the input current go as low as 10 amps, then you need to drive quite a distance to recharge the battery again. So pending on the application and circumstances, that will determine what to use.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    Quote Originally Posted by glamprecht View Post
    One of the biggest disadvantages of rechargeable lithium batteries is the operating temperature. I did not find reference to temperature on the product links that were posted. It appears that eastern exporters and manufacturers conveniently avoid that issue and deal with it in a general disclaimer somewhere in the back of the manual. US and Europe sources provide proper datasheets and are open to a liability claim if they mislead consumers. The batteries will reach thermal runaway only if the operating temperature is exceeded typically during a charge cycle. The operating temperature of all the lithium batteries that I have seen from reputable source that care to take responsibility and guarantee full charging under stated temperatures were 40'C ambient. Outdoor environments in the northern regions of the country exceed that, thus you cannot use these batteries for outdoor applications.

    Typically in industrial applications equipment need to be rated, guaranteed, and environmentally tested to 60'C or 75'C. I have not found LiPo battery packs with this capability, but will be happy to read more if anyone else on the forum have seen extended temperature batteries that are suitable for outdoor use.
    All three of the bluenova batteries I posted links to above state -20 to 65 degrees.

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  5. #64
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johan Lubbe View Post
    Very true, the DC-DC chargers do solve the problem of low input voltage and work perfectly for long trips, but because the amps drop when you increase the voltage the charging period is very long, in most cases the input current go as low as 10 amps, then you need to drive quite a distance to recharge the battery again. So pending on the application and circumstances, that will determine what to use.
    One word - OUCH.

    Johan, either there is a misunderstanding here, or you are completely misinformed.

    With respect - EXACTLY the opposite of what you state is the true situation.
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  7. #65
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    Check this site from a US supplier. Many similar websites where you can find all you want to know about lithium batts. Including deep-cycle lithium batteries.

    https://starkpower.com/about/
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  8. #66
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Just because 60 or 75C is typical doesn't mean it is mandatory or the only specification. It is 100% acceptable to have very different specifications and to also have climatized facilities. So yes, Lithium technology batteries are very mainstream in cell phone repeater towers, even in the midday sun in the Northern Cape. Why, because they are in air conditioned enclosures, just like the remainder of the electronics n the towers.

    There are literally hundreds if not thousands of cases where reduced temp range equipment is deployed in industry, and the problems are overcome in just as many ways.

    EDIT - I wonder how many people have left a black high power LED torch with Li batteries in the sun while camping.
    True, but I wonder how many people have left a black high power LED torch with Li batteries in the sun while charging.

    I understand that it is widely used in cooled environments and that you can also bond it to a peltier element if you like. I did not get the impression that people on the forum was considering cooling whilst that seems to be the main risk. Here is some proof after Samsung Note 7 was left on the dashboard (charging). https://www.technobuffalo.com/2016/0...te-7-fire-car/ There is a real risk that the growing use of these batteries by people who do not consider this will result in many more burnt out vehicles.

    We use Lithium Thionyl Chloride batteries in high volume in applications that range from -40C up to 85C and there are modified chemistry from Taridan for example that allow those temperatures. Note these or not rechargeable. So I was hoping that someone have come up with a chemistry that will extend the temperature capability of LiPo batteries as well and that someone on the forum knows about it? That was my question.

  9. #67
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    Quote Originally Posted by glamprecht View Post
    True, but I wonder how many people have left a black high power LED torch with Li batteries in the sun while charging.

    I understand that it is widely used in cooled environments and that you can also bond it to a peltier element if you like. I did not get the impression that people on the forum was considering cooling whilst that seems to be the main risk. Here is some proof after Samsung Note 7 was left on the dashboard (charging). https://www.technobuffalo.com/2016/0...te-7-fire-car/ There is a real risk that the growing use of these batteries by people who do not consider this will result in many more burnt out vehicles.

    We use Lithium Thionyl Chloride batteries in high volume in applications that range from -40C up to 85C and there are modified chemistry from Taridan for example that allow those temperatures. Note these or not rechargeable. So I was hoping that someone have come up with a chemistry that will extend the temperature capability of LiPo batteries as well and that someone on the forum knows about it? That was my question.
    i assume you did see my reply regarding bluenova batteries.
    Once again, dont confuse Lithium Ion with Lithium Iron batteries. Ion is used in your Samsung and torch, Iron is used in EV, golf carts and in this camping application.
    Lithium Iron is much safer than Lithium Ion.

    From here:
    https://www.brighthubengineering.com...-iron-battery/

    Safety
    Safety is the first concern for any battery being used in portable devices. It should not get overheated or catch fire in case of overcharging. The Lithium-iron battery has edge over the Li-ion battery in such situations. It has superior chemical and thermal stability. A Lithium-iron battery remains cool at room temperature while the Li-ion may suffer thermal runaway and heats up faster under similar charging conditions. LiFePO4 is a nontoxic material, but LiCoO2 is hazardous in nature, so is not considered a safe material. Lithium cobalt dioxide is an allergen to eyes and skin. It could cause a major harm if swallowed. Disposal of Li-ion battery is a big concern for the manufacturer and user.

    and from here:
    https://www.goldenmotor.ca/news/184/...THIUM-ION.html


    SAFETY
    Another thing you will find when reading about Lithium-ion is it is always stated as safer. But rarely is it mentioned safer than what? The fact is LiFePO4 is safer than Lithium-ion and is the safest of all current lithium battery technologies.

  10. #68
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    Quote Originally Posted by glamprecht View Post
    True, but I wonder how many people have left a black high power LED torch with Li batteries in the sun while charging.

    I understand that it is widely used in cooled environments and that you can also bond it to a peltier element if you like. I did not get the impression that people on the forum was considering cooling whilst that seems to be the main risk. Here is some proof after Samsung Note 7 was left on the dashboard (charging). https://www.technobuffalo.com/2016/0...te-7-fire-car/ There is a real risk that the growing use of these batteries by people who do not consider this will result in many more burnt out vehicles.

    We use Lithium Thionyl Chloride batteries in high volume in applications that range from -40C up to 85C and there are modified chemistry from Taridan for example that allow those temperatures. Note these or not rechargeable. So I was hoping that someone have come up with a chemistry that will extend the temperature capability of LiPo batteries as well and that someone on the forum knows about it? That was my question.
    It's a bit rich to use the Note 7 as an example of fire hazard risk, that was phone that had a known and serious design error in the housing that squeezed the battery and caused some of them to catch fire, all those phones were eventually recalled.

    Quote Originally Posted by oradba69 View Post
    i assume you did see my reply regarding bluenova batteries.
    Once again, dont confuse Lithium Ion with Lithium Iron batteries. Ion is used in your Samsung and torch, Iron is used in EV, golf carts and in this camping application.
    Lithium Iron is much safer than Lithium Ion.

    From here:
    https://www.brighthubengineering.com...-iron-battery/

    Safety
    Safety is the first concern for any battery being used in portable devices. It should not get overheated or catch fire in case of overcharging. The Lithium-iron battery has edge over the Li-ion battery in such situations. It has superior chemical and thermal stability. A Lithium-iron battery remains cool at room temperature while the Li-ion may suffer thermal runaway and heats up faster under similar charging conditions. LiFePO4 is a nontoxic material, but LiCoO2 is hazardous in nature, so is not considered a safe material. Lithium cobalt dioxide is an allergen to eyes and skin. It could cause a major harm if swallowed. Disposal of Li-ion battery is a big concern for the manufacturer and user.

    and from here:
    https://www.goldenmotor.ca/news/184/...THIUM-ION.html


    SAFETY
    Another thing you will find when reading about Lithium-ion is it is always stated as safer. But rarely is it mentioned safer than what? The fact is LiFePO4 is safer than Lithium-ion and is the safest of all current lithium battery technologies.
    Most phone batteries are actually Lithium polymer(a distinct variation of Li-ion), which in some form factors is one of the more unstable chemistry but apart from the Note 7 they haven't seem to have too many issues with them in cellphones.

    There are also many different variations of lipo chemistry/construction so it's not easy to make blanket claims about their stability or risk. But that being said it does seem Lifepo4 is regarded as the defacto safest lithium chemistry that's currently widely available.

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  12. #69
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    My hands are warm and toasty... but honestly, some of the information in this thread makes my hair stand on end. Pity I am about to leave for the airport.

    Bookmarked for Monday.
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  13. #70
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylark View Post
    It's a bit rich to use the Note 7 as an example of fire hazard risk, that was phone that had a known and serious design error in the housing that squeezed the battery and caused some of them to catch fire, all those phones were eventually recalled.



    Most phone batteries are actually Lithium polymer(a distinct variation of Li-ion), which in some form factors is one of the more unstable chemistry but apart from the Note 7 they haven't seem to have too many issues with them in cellphones.

    There are also many different variations of lipo chemistry/construction so it's not easy to make blanket claims about their stability or risk. But that being said it does seem Lifepo4 is regarded as the defacto safest lithium chemistry that's currently widely available.

    Its probably best to refer to any Lithium containing battery by its full chemistry due to all the variances that have completely different characteristics.

    I know it is unfair to use the Note 7, but I want to draw the attention to this aspect. I was in a meeting recently with a room full of engineers, recommending a quotation to replace 200Ah lead acid batteries by LiFePO4 battery packs. The distributor was so anxious to sell a few hundred battery packs that they never asked about the application or provided any usage advice. The datasheet did not provide temperature, but I inquired directly with the foreign manufacturer (very big name) and they stated in writing that that particular pack should under no circumstances be exposed to temperatures above 40C. The application required 65C certification - not just recommendation. However nobody in the room considered or cared about this aspect despite the fact that the devices are also installed above the public movement together with equipment that heat up considerably in summer inside the same box as the battery.

    It seems like if a characteristic is undesirable rather than acknowledging it and coming up with a solution, current practice has become that we all look the other way and if it goes south we blame the predecessor. For these reasons I thought it is prudent to highlight this aspect that need to be considered for all technology.

    Just consider the technical aspects as much as the price.

  14. #71
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    For reference I think it has been posted before here are the types of Lithium Ion batteries.

    https://batteryuniversity.com/index....of_lithium_ion

    Here is a table that list amongst others the energy density of the various anode, cathode and electrolyte combinations.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar..._battery_types

    I must say the Lithium Iron is something I have not noticed, probably since my spelling is often so bad that I overlook correctly spelled variations. I was aware of Li-Fe variations but interestingly when I looked it up I found these different Iron based lithium batteries:

    Li-FeS2FR
    LiFePO4

    From the Electrochemical Society there is a paper on general battery safety: https://www.electrochem.org/dl/inter...2_p037_044.pdf Name:  Untitled.jpg
Views: 93
Size:  112.9 KB

    The average guy is quite familiar with lead acid, which can handle a lot of abuse and incorrect operation. Is it safe to assume other are the same? I have opened up some LiFePO4 batteries from the largest battery manufacturer in the east and was shocked at the safety. They surely tick the boxes with the embedded thermal/overload/overcharge limiting circuit, but the 2 cell wires (before the protection circuit) are bare under the wrapping about 2mm from each other. Any directional mechanical movement on the wrapping will cause these batteries to short, overheat and will start a fire. We had a number of batteries misbehave and opened them up to figure the protection circuit out.
    Last edited by glamprecht; 2018/08/15 at 08:49 PM.

  15. #72
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    Quote Originally Posted by glamprecht View Post
    For reference I think it has been posted before here are the types of Lithium Ion batteries.

    https://batteryuniversity.com/index....of_lithium_ion

    Here is a table that list amongst others the energy density of the various anode, cathode and electrolyte combinations.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar..._battery_types

    I must say the Lithium Iron is something I have not noticed, probably since my spelling is often so bad that I overlook correctly spelled variations. I was aware of Li-Fe variations but interestingly when I looked it up I found these different Iron based lithium batteries:

    Li-FeS2FR
    LiFePO4

    From the Electrochemical Society there is a paper on general battery safety: https://www.electrochem.org/dl/inter...2_p037_044.pdf Name:  Untitled.jpg
Views: 93
Size:  112.9 KB

    The average guy is quite familiar with lead acid, which can handle a lot of abuse and incorrect operation. Is it safe to assume other are the same? I have opened up some LiFePO4 batteries from the largest battery manufacturer in the east and was shocked at the safety. They surely tick the boxes with the embedded thermal/overload/overcharge limiting circuit, but the 2 cell wires (before the protection circuit) are bare under the wrapping about 2mm from each other. Any directional mechanical movement on the wrapping will cause these batteries to short, overheat and will start a fire. We had a number of batteries misbehave and opened them up to figure the protection circuit out.
    Largest battery supplier in the east? Please expand on ‘the east’ ie East Rand or China?

    Also please give comment on LiFe”Y”Po electrochemical benefits i.e. charge and operating temps.

    Ta

  16. #73
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    "East" refer to East Asia.

    * "C" refers to the capacity, eg. 10Ah.

    LiFePO4 batteries charge rate is generally high at 1C like most other Lithium batteries, but not as high as Li4Ti5O12 which also has an incredibly high discharge rate of up to 30C.
    LiFePO4 batteries have a high energy density in comparison with other batteries, but not as high as LiNiCoAlO2

    LiFePO4 batteries have a reasonably low cost /kWh, but not as low as LiNiMnCoO2 with similar other characteristics.

    So, LiFePO4 is readily available from every hobby shop in SA which is the biggest bonus, but the most "balanced" chemistry is LiNiMnCoO2

    Thermal runaway of 270'C of LiFePO4 does not mean much in itself because there are many factors that can contribute to thermal runaway such as packaging, contacts, assembly, protection circuit, charging circuit, etc. Whe you buy the batteries (from the factory) they allow you 100% customisation on all these aspects, AT A COST. So the general hobby shops typically choose the cheapest options or the options they understand, which again result in many uncertainties in the consumer hands, which is why the consumers need to be aware at least that they should be careful. If you handle these batteries the way I have seen some car owners handle lead acid batteries, you will see many more burnt out vehicles, tents and caravans.


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  18. #74
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    Default Re: Is it time to go Lithium?

    Thanx glam.. Makes sense with the clarity given. The major issue will thus be the rough off road usage ie vibrations and corrugattion.

    Bluenova (reputable company?) have off road packs that they have done initial tests on. These packs, one assumes, will not have the narrow wiring clearances you warn about.

    There batteries contain Y (yitterium?) Does this make it safer than straight LiFePo batteries.

    Are the LiNiMnCoO2 batteries you refer to as the safest, currently available for offroad use.

    I ask this for interest and understanding.

    Thanx for the indulgence.
    Last edited by TRON; 2018/08/21 at 11:14 AM.

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