Electrical Question.




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  1. #1
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    Default Electrical Question.

    . If an element draws 2000w in a geyser ,can you have differnt quality elements? In other words can you have a better quality element that heats faster and uses less energy than another element of the same wattage.?

    Can you have an element made of different stuff that performs better, like a ceramic or titanium element compared to a standerd stove or geyser element.
    Question two. How can you see how strong an element is wattage wize if you only have a multimeter and you cant power up the unit.?

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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    1) not as far as I know,you get wet niche and dry niche elements,you can't use on in the others surrounding.

    Resistance values change,best is read on elements face,it's wattage is stamped on there.

    Don't think by dropping a geysers element size for a large geyser will save you electricity,it will cook longer using more electricity.

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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    You do get elements in different materials, but essentially they all will give you the ampage they come with unless blown.
    We use hard water elements in my area, mainly because they last longer because of the quality of the water.
    But same ampage.
    I don't know if any one had done a test in a pressurized HWC compared to a ball valve type,


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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    . If an element draws 2000w in a geyser ,can you have differnt quality elements? In other words can you have a better quality element that heats faster and uses less energy than another element of the same wattage.?

    Can you have an element made of different stuff that performs better, like a ceramic or titanium element compared to a standerd stove or geyser element.
    Question two. How can you see how strong an element is wattage wize if you only have a multimeter and you cant power up the unit.?



    the main quality difference I suppose is how resistant the element coating is to lime-scale buildup. lime-scale would affect the boundary layer and consequently how quickly the element can heat the water and its overall efficiency. I don't know which materials are less prone to scaling - google may help

    for single phase:
    power = (volts x volts) / resistance

    resistance of the heating element doesn't change much with temperature, so measure its resistance, put in above formula and you'll have the power rating.
    Last edited by RussellF; 2018/02/13 at 08:55 AM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    How do you measure resistance with a multimeter.?I need a multimeter lesson.(embarrassed)
    Last edited by plunger; 2018/02/13 at 04:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by plunger View Post
    How do you measure resistance with a multimeter.?I need a multimeter lesson.(embarrassed)
    Turn it to the ohm scale
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  8. #7
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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by RussellF View Post
    . If an element draws 2000w in a geyser ,can you have differnt quality elements? In other words can you have a better quality element that heats faster and uses less energy than another element of the same wattage.?

    Can you have an element made of different stuff that performs better, like a ceramic or titanium element compared to a standerd stove or geyser element.
    Question two. How can you see how strong an element is wattage wize if you only have a multimeter and you cant power up the unit.?



    the main quality difference I suppose is how resistant the element coating is to lime-scale buildup. lime-scale would affect the boundary layer and consequently how quickly the element can heat the water and its overall efficiency. I don't know which materials are less prone to scaling - google may help

    for single phase:
    power = (volts x volts) / resistance

    resistance of the heating element doesn't change much with temperature, so measure its resistance, put in above formula and you'll have the power rating.
    Just be careful here. Although the water temp may only be the difference between 20 and 55 deg C, the wire in the element itself could be as high at 500 deg C or more. This could be significant. I suspect there is an element (excuse the pun) of equilibrium that's happening here. Citation and investigation needed.
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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    I will tell you why I am asking this question.Those induction plates work like magic.Its hard to believe that if you have no pot on you can put your hand on the stove.So it needs the cast iron pot to work.

    They do an induction geyser which is supposed to heat water real quick and use a third of the power. I was given one.
    I try to normally work to the book (maybe why I am still broke) and cant figure out if these things are legal or not.

    These geysers have a clip on section which fits on the side of the geyser. You can separate the geyser from the magnetic thingy that makes the water hot.
    I was under the impression and most people are that it uses a magnetic vibrating electrical trickery to entice the molecules in the geyser part to heat the water up.

    So I took it apart to see how it works (started doing this at the age of ten).
    To my utter amazement it looks like it has a conventional type element in it but the side panel has a big coil and the geyser has a big coil. So it looks like the one coil excites the other coil and then it goes through a normal element.

    So either the coils enhance the system somehow or the element is special or we are being hoodwinked by the whole thing.
    I would think the mere fact that the electricity has to go through two coils would make it less efficient than if it went straight through the element.

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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/...ysers-Good-buy

    This...?

    I see Fluffy's comments are still outstanding....

    I'll wait for the Fluffys and so on to look and comment, but it seems like a gimmick to me. I am sure we can hit the 'myth busted' thing on this one soon!

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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by plunger View Post
    I will tell you why I am asking this question.Those induction plates work like magic.Its hard to believe that if you have no pot on you can put your hand on the stove.So it needs the cast iron pot to work.

    They do an induction geyser which is supposed to heat water real quick and use a third of the power. I was given one.
    I try to normally work to the book (maybe why I am still broke) and cant figure out if these things are legal or not.

    These geysers have a clip on section which fits on the side of the geyser. You can separate the geyser from the magnetic thingy that makes the water hot.
    I was under the impression and most people are that it uses a magnetic vibrating electrical trickery to entice the molecules in the geyser part to heat the water up.

    So I took it apart to see how it works (started doing this at the age of ten).
    To my utter amazement it looks like it has a conventional type element in it but the side panel has a big coil and the geyser has a big coil. So it looks like the one coil excites the other coil and then it goes through a normal element.

    So either the coils enhance the system somehow or the element is special or we are being hoodwinked by the whole thing.
    I would think the mere fact that the electricity has to go through two coils would make it less efficient than if it went straight through the element.
    Oh dear - NO.

    Heating water is simple. The temperature increase is proportional to the energy input, Doesn't matter how you do it. And Energy is kW vs time.
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  13. #11
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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof View Post
    http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/...ysers-Good-buy

    This...?

    I see Fluffy's comments are still outstanding....
    Sorted. Its all about reducing the couple losses. Not much use using a gas stove and 60% of the energy is heating the room instead of the pot.
    Cheers

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  15. #12
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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    Although the water temp may only be the difference between 20 and 55 deg C, the wire in the element itself could be as high at 500 deg C or more.

    indeed, the element is too hot for convection currents in the water to be set up efficiently - hence the cavitation bubbles. ideally what is needed is a lower temperature element with greater surface area.

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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    This is what the geyser looks like .You can see the piece that clips off and on. No hard wires are connected to the geyser. There is a big coil in the geyser and a big coil in the side piece.I cant see the benefit of electricity rushing around a big coil before going into the geyser. In my terribly electrically challenged mind I would think its more efficient if it just went straight to the element.
    This is the info the site gives . It explains nicely why it works so well.

    https://www.harverafrica.com/about-usClick image for larger version. 

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  17. #14
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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    And this is what the two coils look like . I am curious how the power can go from one coil to the other coil through the plastic sides without being hard wired .But i dont see how it could use less energy.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #15
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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by plunger View Post
    And this is what the two coils look like . I am curious how the power can go from one coil to the other coil through the plastic sides without being hard wired .But i dont see how it could use less energy.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Same as.a.transformer,both high voltage and low voltage windings are not electrically connected but induction field of one influences the other. Hence IMHO the same happens with the induction geyser
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  19. #16
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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by hunter26 View Post
    Same as.a.transformer,both high voltage and low voltage windings are not electrically connected but induction field of one influences the other. Hence IMHO the same happens with the induction geyser
    What is the purpose or benifit of this. How do you get a savings.

  20. #17
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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    Quote Originally Posted by plunger View Post
    What is the purpose or benifit of this. How do you get a savings.
    Not a fundi on this,perhaps Fluffy can answer better. But IMHO an element has to fight against the cold to heat up,hence higher resistance of elements,higher current meaning more electricity. With the transformer effect or induction, a small current is flowing in the primary coil but higher in the secondary coil causing heat,water is the cooling medium but gets hot due to the internal coil. I'm under correction.
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  21. #18
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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    A good example of industrial induction heating wrt vehicles is a bearing heaters,where a bearing is placed over a frame with a coil wrapped around the frame. The bearing heats up,expands then fitted onto a shaft etc
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  22. #19
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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    A good example of industrial induction heating wrt vehicles is a bearing heaters,where a bearing is placed over a frame with a coil wrapped around the frame. The bearing heats up,expands then fitted onto a shaft etc

    one of the beauties of induction heating is the "skin effect", where depending on frequency, the induced current flow (which causes the heat) is confined to a predictable depth in the surface of the metal. this property is used to good effect for surface hardening.

  23. #20
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    Default Re: Electrical Question.

    Fluffy is ignoring me.Its agonizing having to wait for an answer.

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