Diesel engines in bakkies





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  1. #1
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    Default Diesel engines in bakkies

    Something that I don't understand and has been bugging me for a long time

    Ford makes a 3.0L TDI motor in the new bakkies good for 115KW and 380NM - not too bad
    Toyota makes the 3.0L D4D motor, same story - 120KW and 340NM - also not bad

    BUT

    VW makes a 3.0L TDI motor in the Touareg good for 165KW and 500NM, same with the audi 3.0L TDI, BMW TDI - Jag has just launched a 3.0L TDI good for 202KW and 600NM. Even the VW transporter that engel loves is much more powerfull than the 4x4 double cab bakkies that we get andf obviously the more efficient engines use less fuel too

    Now my question begs - why can't we get those power and toeque figures in the bakkies? Is it purely because of reliability, old technology, what? Even the Pajero DiD motor is way less powerfull than similar sized engines. Are the cars just that much more unreliable, or are those high tech engines too expensive? Can someone please explain it to me
    Christo Davids
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  2. #2
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    I think Toyota has it right with the motor I have.

    24valve
    Cast iron head
    4.2l (Bottom end torque. Before the turbo kicks in.)
    Old gen injectors.
    Andre Tresselaar fitted an old gen diesel pump.

    145kw 450nm

    With all the "nice" things that come with the common rail systems, they are still to "soft" for Africa. Look at all the injector problems.
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  3. #3
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    Henri I hear you

    That is a fantastic motor and with the old tech very reliable in rough conditions, but still, look what audi produce from the Q7

    Is it therefore simply a metter of reliability in less than ideal circumstances?
    Christo Davids
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  4. #4
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    If you don't take your car to remote places, they are fine.

    A friend of mine has a new 100VX with the 1HD-FTE motor, with all the bells and whistles. Very very fancy.

    The engine has full electronic management. If even monitors and manages EGT. Reliable as hell, when you have it a controlled enviroment.

    I would hate to be in the DRC and those electronics develop a hickup. Then I want to be able to rely on the old "tang en draad" principal.

    Imagine that Q7 in the same senario. Look what happened to the Touareg that developed a problem in Botswana. Nobody was even interested to try and get it going.
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  5. #5
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    I don't know, I'm more than happy with my 118KW & 501NM in my truck

    Christo, I think it's all about ECU's, software and some other VERY expensive technology and if they start adding this stuff in our bakkies, then can you imagine what they will cost...they are already ALL way overpriced IMHO!!!

    They other issue is, along with all the technology these Audi's, Toureg's etc have, they also have VERY sophisticated STOPPING mechanisms ...which again our bakkies don't...

    Just my 2c worth

    Trev
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    Maybe it is case of suspension capabilities of the Bakkies. Allthough my knowledge on the subject is quite limited this is my feeling (please correct me if I'm missing the plot here). To handle the power that the high tech engines produce you will need suspensions better suited to handling high speed and power instead of loads and rough terrain.

    Now if you take into account that all the Vehicles with the real performing engines comes with traction/stability control systems as standard (probably needed to safely drive these vehicles) The costs of these systems added to bakkie prices would make the value of these vehicles much less alluring.

    On the other hand, with all the talks off handling issues of the Fortuner and to a lesser extend of the Hilux and Triton. Do you really want a more powerful engine in vehicle that has problems with it's current setup?

  7. #7
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    I am not saying that they should make the vehicles faster

    With current gearing setup you can't go any faster, even if you have the most powerfull engine

    With more power and current gear ratios though, you could probably accelarate and overtake safer, climb hille off road that you couldn't before, etc. Even if they introduce a speed limiter at 160km/h or something - the tyres obviously can only handle 180km/h, some less

    I think the braking is something to consider, but again without more speed, why do you need more braking? If top speed remains the same, but you have higher torque and KW, thenm you could accelarate quicker or do the same that you do now, but with less stress on the motor. Or am I missing something?

    I think Henri hit the nail on it's head, so did Trevor. We are better off without all the electronics, etc...
    Christo Davids
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    Using 200Kw to excellerate a 1000Kg car is one thing, using the same force to excellerate a 2,5 ton truck will put strain on the drivetrain like you cannot believe. 130 Kw and around 400Nm torque is already asking a lot of our bakkie drive trains. If you want that sort of power, you're gonna pay a LOT for the development of a sound drivetrain and suspension to reliably cope with that.
    Sakkie Coetzee

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    My 2c: I'm more interested in the power/torque curve than the max power/torque figures. In cars you'll probably want more high-end power whereas in a 4x4, low rev torque is more important for the crawling ability.
    Niel
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4Wheel Lover View Post
    Using 200Kw to excellerate a 1000Kg car is one thing, using the same force to excellerate a 2,5 ton truck will put strain on the drivetrain like you cannot believe. 130 Kw and around 400Nm torque is already asking a lot of our bakkie drive trains. If you want that sort of power, you're gonna pay a LOT for the development of a sound drivetrain and suspension to reliably cope with that.
    Spoken like the wise man he is!

    Many of the modern high performance TDs deliver the high output at higher revs than the older TDs.

    I have 125kW & 370Nm available and must honestly say that there has never been one moment when I thought I needed more.

    The fact that the max torque is delivered at 1800rpm and there is no discernible turbo-lag adds to the fact, I suppose.

    The real test of 4x4 capable engines are:

    • torque at crawl speed (800-1000rpm)
    • torque at open-road speed (110km/h for me)

    ****kW at 6000rpm means nothing in a 4x4

  11. #11
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    I agree 4e. You are so right.

    The Prado has a 3.0 motor and cruises quite comfortably. The LC motor is 4.2 and cruises well, but the low down grunt is the bonus.
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  12. #12
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    I think it's the technology you take into Africa and the what more can go wrong..

    Compare the old 2.7TD Sani and the Terrano... Exactly the same engines, just a bunch of electronics on the Terrano that the Sani did not have, with a Inter Cooler and fly by wire accelerator, high pressure injector system, more refined injection by ECU and out the same Sub Assembly you get nearly double the power.. But which one would you rather be stuck with up in Africa.

    I carry around a spare set of injectors that cost me R800...Terrano is about R1100 each. I don't even want to venture a price on the new cars. The 1600 Getz injectors are 4,5K each (R18000 for the set).. I purchased my Jap motor for half that....

    I suppose you get what you pay for longer than just getting it, you got to maintain it....... My services cost my R300 to R500 a shot with a R700 service every 25000Km when we clean injectors and then on 50000km we replace injectors at around R1200 with labour.... Keep the old set for spares for when something goes wrong out in the bush or something like that.
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    Most of the above comments are correct.

    Firstly, the quality of diesel is critical. Outside of SA (north) your diesel is not even 100% pure. The modern diesels require very high Cetane numbers as well as 50ppm diesel. No chance of ever working. We took a Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD to Zim and had endless problems with the "bad" diesel. And that was "good" diesel from the refinery at Beira! Again, lots of electronics to control injection etc which constantly play around with timing.

    Secondly, to deliver the torque to the back wheels simply to get moving, bearing in mind how bakkies are abused, will require a drivetrain from a 5t truck. Vehicle manufacturers can only have a few failures before the vehicle becomes a disaster, so they have overdesign everything already. The 15t trucks typically have power of about 150kW and 650Nm of torque, and the diff weighs a tonne!

    Thirdly, the suspension design and layout is more for load bearing and therefore is unsuitable for high speed motoring. A live axle on the rear with leaf springs - hit your brakes into a corner when you are close to the limit and you are in big trouble.

    Finally, the aerodynamics of a bakkie is certainly not for high speed motoring. The upward force on the body at about 150 km/h is already creating handling and braking problems. Trying to brake from 160 km/h unladen is quite an event.
    Last edited by RogerL; 2008/12/31 at 08:38 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerL View Post
    Most of the above comments are correct.

    Firstly, the quality of diesel is critical. Outside of SA (north) your diesel is not even 100% pure.
    Agree 100%. Modern common rails cannot handle "dirty diesel" as you would find in Africa. Even South Africa's diesel is still a problem, if you listen to the problems with Toyota D4D injectors.

    Tinus

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    After power has gone thru a low range gearbox even a useless 4y motor becomes very strong. That is why the sfa hiluxes are that "strong".Some guys run v6 and v8 engines without a problem. The newer gen bakkies tend to break and strip diffs and sideshafts much easyer.

    Now why dont the manufacturers not use the new gen engines?
    MONEY< MONEY MONEY. There is enough technology to strengthen the drive terrain for the stronger engines but the overinflated vehicle prices will be even more.

    In the 80,s while working for Atlas we strengthened sarels quattro to handle big power. Same dia, double strength.

    The current diesels in our double cabs are also very driveable using a manual box ie the power delivery at low revs are better and in the high output motors the power up to 1300rpm is not that good but all torq is there from 1800rpm. now the dead zone is under 1800 when you need wooma! That is also why the new gen like auto boxes.

    4wd should also be done at CRAWLING speed only, then youll go more places and not break you drive terrain, then you wont need 600nm either but crawler gears and lockers/traction control.



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