Discovery 1 300 Tdi cam timing





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  1. #1
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    Default 300 Tdi cam timing

    Apparently the spec for no. 1 inlet valve beginning to open is 16 deg BTDC.

    When I check this from the crankshaft, no. 1 inlet begins to open at 37 deg BTDC. I presume you must divide this by 2? Which then gives about 18.5 deg BTDC.

    Firstly: do you guys think I'm correct by dividing by 2, and also is the 16 deg BTDC really the correct value? Am I missing something?

    Secondly, do you think I need to be concerned about an additional 2.5 deg retard in cam timing? Should I open up the timing case and try to rectify this?

    Car runs well after the cam belt change, no smoke, etc. But it's a bit sluggish at highway speeds and doesn't maintain 120 km/h as well as it used to. Also, it uses more fuel. IP timing is spot-on by the way, and advancing it actually makes things a bit worse although more noisy.

    Thanks in advance for all advice...



  2. #2
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    "Car runs well after the cam belt change,"

    methinks you're a couple of teeth out bud
    2012 Jeep Sahara Unlimited 3.6 V6
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    once i have reinstalled my belt and everything is bolted up i leave the injector pump pin in and the flywheel pin, i then remove the 3 bolts holding the injector pump gear and then set the lift pump to 1.54mm of lift, you will have to remove the pump pin for this, you then set this from the back of the injector pump between the 4 fuel line pipes is a bolt, this is removed a dial gauge installed,
    1.54mm of lift is what you need, then you install the 3 bolts back in and tighten them up, the pump pin should slide in and out easily in set right

    if you don't have the proper locking pins you can be out on the belt, also did the arrow line up with the key way and the cam gear to casing
    Last edited by clivemd; 2017/06/23 at 05:37 PM.
    1995 300TDi Defender with VGT Turbo (stolen by my son now )
    2002 Defender with LS1 MS3 ECU, 4L80e, LT230 1.222, Lockers and HD CW&P, 35" with 4" Lift
    2005 Defender TD5

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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    Quote Originally Posted by clivemd View Post

    if you don't have the proper locking pins you can be out on the belt, also did the arrow line up with the key way and the cam gear to casing
    What is the actual size of these pins? Will the back of a drill bit work( perhaps cut one on the lathe) or do you have to get one from the agents?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    Thank you for the input, guys. I appreciate it as always, as I try to figure this out.

    Let's just clarify a few issues to prevent this becoming another general pump timing thread (there are lots of those already so I don't want to dilute).

    Pump timing is correct. The locking pins were used. I'm always open to input, but I don't think this is an IP timing issue. Nothing on the pump has been adjusted or loosened except as specced in the workshop manual for cambelt change.

    I'm wrestling with the issue of opening it all up and sorting out those 2.5 degrees (which will only be 1.25 degrees on the cam shaft!). EDIT: ACTUALLY IT'S 5 DEG ON THE CRANKSHAFT SO 2.5 DEG ON THE CAMSHAFT - MAYBE I JUST ANSWERED MY OWN QUESTION!!! I checked that the pointer on the cam sprocket lined up with the mark in the timing case, and it was about half a tooth off so I couldn't really do anything about it. I suppose I could advance it a full tooth and see what happens. EDIT: TOMORROW THAT TIMING CASE COMES OFF AND VALVE TIMING GETS ADVANCED, UNLESS YOU GUYS DO CONFIRM THAT I'M SPLITTING HAIRS HERE. BUT EVEN AS I WRITE THIS, I GET MORE CONVINCED I HAVE TO SET UP THAT CAM TIMING BY HAND AGAIN.

    Can someone also perhaps confirm if I'm right when I quoted the start of opening of no. 1 inlet valve as 16 deg BTDC, that this will turn up as 32 deg BTDC on the crankshaft? Or have I completely missed it somewhere? If so, my measurement was taken incorrectly and is meaningless.
    Last edited by antvz; 2017/06/22 at 10:02 PM. Reason: Fixed the maths and added notes to self implying that I can really be a stupid twit sometimes.



  6. #6
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    did you lock the flywheel? if your flywheel is locked, normally you get the cam timing spot on.
    i have often found that guys do not visually check the marks accurately with the engine in the body.
    my advise is to photograph the mark as plumb (square on the mark) as possible with a cellphone camera and then confirm it is lined up.

    Land Rovers never die, they simply become organ donors!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    even if you use the correct pins to lock up the pump, you loosen the 3 bolts to adjust for the belt and then tighten up the 3 bolts the pump timing will not be 100%, to get it 100% you still need to check lift pump is at 1.54mm from 0. This is not done on the test bench but once pump and belt have been installed, not many peaple do this as you need to make up fitting that can take a dial gauge in the back of the pump, as proper unit is close to 2k for the kit
    if every thing is set up your valve settings will be correct, have you checked the tappers are set
    I would take cover off again hardest part is main bolt and re check timing marks all line up with flywheel

    if I not mistaken there are 2 locking groves on flywheel make sore it is the correct one, if it is the key way on front will line up with arrow

    i cant get you pin sizes from my kit as not at home to measure them
    Last edited by clivemd; 2017/06/23 at 05:37 PM.
    1995 300TDi Defender with VGT Turbo (stolen by my son now )
    2002 Defender with LS1 MS3 ECU, 4L80e, LT230 1.222, Lockers and HD CW&P, 35" with 4" Lift
    2005 Defender TD5

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    Clivemd, thanks for the info and effort to reply. No need to get pin sizes, thank you, this is all in order already.



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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    Landyluvver, I did indeed lock the flywheel. I do agree, I need to go in there and set can timing. Thanks for the hint about using the phone camera. Great idea!



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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    So I'm in there now. This is how it looks. Spot on.Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    More

    Click image for larger version. 

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    Quote Originally Posted by antvz View Post
    Clivemd, thanks for the info and effort to reply. No need to get pin sizes, thank you, this is all in order already.
    Hi Antvz, I sit with the exact same problem; replaced the cam belt a while back and now fuel consumption is down from 9.5 to 7 km L. I am pretty sure I used the wrong size pins that is why I would love to get the correct pin size. The other thing perhaps worth looking at is valve clearance. How do you go about setting valve clearance?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    Quote Originally Posted by KoosDup View Post
    Hi Antvz, I sit with the exact same problem; replaced the cam belt a while back and now fuel consumption is down from 9.5 to 7 km L. I am pretty sure I used the wrong size pins that is why I would love to get the correct pin size. The other thing perhaps worth looking at is valve clearance. How do you go about setting valve clearance?

    Hi KoosDup, I see I also missed another of your posts higher up on this thread asking for info - sorry about that!

    I use two "Land Rover Special Tools" for locking the pulleys when doing timing, etc:
    - 9.5 mm drill bit (steel/wood obviously, NOT concrete!) - insert the shaft end into the IP timing slot, and careful not to cut yourself on the sharp end when you pull it out again (got the T-shirt with blood stains).
    - R380 gearbox reverse light switch for the flywheel/drive plate. This "special tool" is BETTER than the genuine one because it's spring-loaded, so clicks neatly into place when you find the timing slot. Just remember there's more than one slot on the flywheel/drive plate, so also check TDC at the crank keyway (must be facing directly upwards).

    See RAVE to set valve clearances. This is done when cold, and they are all set to 0.2 mm. You need a feeler gauge, 13 spanner (ring is best) and flat screwdriver. Also a bit of patience as it's a very crude system - if you're not careful, when you tighten the 13 nut you take the adjusting screw with it, thus reducing the clearances again! I always fit a new rocker cover gasket (they are less than R20).
    Last edited by antvz; 2017/06/24 at 09:35 AM.



  14. #14
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    So, guys, I've solved the mystery! Here's the short version. Cam timing was advanced by one tooth, which is 7.5 degrees. Those who want to hear the rest of the story, read on... There's a lesson here, that a Landy is always shrouded with just a little bit of confusion and uncertainty!

    As you saw from the photos and read in this thread, the belt was installed spot-on. Everything to spec. This is what puzzled me. I had doubts that perhaps I'd made an error of parallax with the cam sprocket, so took it all apart to find that everything lined up perfectly (thanks again Landyluvver for the tip about the cell phone camera!).

    I was about to put it all back together again and look elsewhere, but then I remembered my valve opening readings from a few days ago (see start of this thread). No. 1 valve was opening at about 37 deg BTDC on the CRANKSHAFT, which translates to HALF that amount (18.5 deg BTDC) on the camshaft. I set the valve clearance spot-on (it was a bit loose) and this figure increased even more.

    The slotted holes on the camshaft were obviously not nearly enough to take up this error. I quickly realised I'd have to remove the belt and re-time the cam. This I did. I found that I had to retard the cam timing by EXACTLY one tooth to get the cam to open at the right time. This co-incidence was too good to be true, and I realised that the problem was solved.

    This highlights two things:
    - 1. The timing mark on the cam sprocket is in the wrong place (one tooth too late). Yet the camshaft can only attach to the sprocket in one way. It can only be that, for some reason, the cam from the new engine didn't quite match the sprocket from the old one. Very strange.
    - 2. This was never a problem before, so my indy must have timed the cam using feeler/dial gauges, and not just lining up the marks. I know he's very thorough about things, so I really take my hat off to him!

    And to think I could have put the covers back on, none the wiser, and assumed that the problem lay elsewhere!

    I DELETED THE LAST PART OF THIS POST, SINCE THE INFO I POSTED HERE IS NOT CORRECT. I DON'T WANT TO DILUTE A TECHNICAL THREAD WITH INFO THAT IS GOING TO CONFUSE SOMEONE OR GIVE INCORRECT INFO TO USERS WHO BROWSE IT LATER.

    SEE MY NEXT POST BELOW.
    Last edited by antvz; 2017/06/25 at 05:42 PM.



  15. #15
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    Well done, good perseverance.

    How does she run now?
    2012 Jeep Sahara Unlimited 3.6 V6
    Percivamus

  16. #16
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    No, Jelo and others who are watching this. I did not solve it properly, except that I now know without a doubt that the power loss was NOT caused by the cam belt change AT ALL!

    For the fourth time in two weeks, I stripped the timing cover again and retimed the belt (I'm now a genuine pro - can do the job in 2 hours flat!). I set all the timing marks back to how I had it in the beginning. It runs best like this, and the engine is quiet and smooth.

    After my drive yesterday, I realised that there was too much valve noise. So early this morning, I measured valve overlap. I found that no.1 exhaust valve was closing WAY too late (almost 55 degrees ATDC!). So my timing setting from yesterday was obviously incorrect, and the marks were in fact in the right place.

    Setting it all back as it should be, I now have a relatively even valve overlap, with the same sort of readings either side of TDC. This is correct. As for the actual values for no.1 opening and closing, I can't get those to match up. Not sure why, but it's obviously not a mystery worth solving.



  17. #17
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    Quote Originally Posted by antvz View Post
    Apparently the spec for no. 1 inlet valve beginning to open is 16 deg BTDC.

    When I check this from the crankshaft, no. 1 inlet begins to open at 37 deg BTDC. I presume you must divide this by 2? Which then gives about 18.5 deg BTDC.

    Firstly: do you guys think I'm correct by dividing by 2, and also is the 16 deg BTDC really the correct value? Am I missing something?

    Secondly, do you think I need to be concerned about an additional 2.5 deg retard in cam timing? Should I open up the timing case and try to rectify this?
    So, to summarise by answering my own questions. At least I learnt something through all this.

    * There is only one thread I can find on the internet regarding valve timing and overlap for this car. It's not something people play with. Everyone just aligns the marks and leaves it at that.

    * The extra 2.5 deg is NOTHING, since it's about 1/3 of a tooth. It might affect a high-performance racing car, but not this old donkey diesel.

    * When you measure valve opening on the crankshaft, you need to double the values of the angles (since crankshaft turns twice for every revolution of the cam).

    * The "valve overlap" should be checked - this should be symmetrical either side of TDC. You can't do anything about the actual values anyway (other than check valve clearances). So just check this if you suspect cam timing is out.

    * One whole tooth out can make a difference, and so you will clearly hear it if your cam belt slips just one tooth. Much noisier valve train.

    * Compliments of Landyluvver, use a cell phone camera to line up the marks properly.

    So, why are my valve opening angles not up to spec as in the manual? Mine now open at 22.5 deg BTDC and not 16 deg. I STILL CAN'T ANSWER THAT. Has my cam perhaps been altered in some way? I suppose I'll never know. But at least she ticks over quietly and runs well.

    Case closed, I suppose...

    As for the slight lack of power, I haven't really sorted it that. I'll start another thread if anything comes to light. I turned up the boost fuelling diaphragm a little bit, and she now drives like before. But nothing was altered here. I did check turbo boost and all is in order. Let's see what happens next...



  18. #18
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    Quote Originally Posted by antvz View Post
    I did check turbo boost and all is in order.

    How did you do that?

  19. #19
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    Connected up a boost gauge to the little pipe taking boost to the injector pump.

    There is always the option that I have boost but it's not getting to the inlet manifold. But this would mean huge amounts of black smoke, and this is not the case. Very little smoke, as always.



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  21. #20
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    Default Re: 300 Tdi cam timing

    Wind the pump up until she starts smoking and then take it back out a little?
    2012 Jeep Sahara Unlimited 3.6 V6
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