Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn





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  1. #1
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    Default Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    http://www.gov.za/sites/www.gov.za/f...01_gen74_0.pdf

    Have the implications and potential impact of such a policy shift been duly considered?

    Is domestic trade a good idea given the apparent lack of domestic market in SA?

    Is domestic trade without international trade at all going to benefit local farmers and rhino?

    Is there an adequate framework in place to effectively regulate and police the trade?

    Clauses that permit the exportation of rhino horn out of South Africa seem to need more elaboration, e.g.

    "... may export a maximum of 2 rhinoceros horns, and then only for personal purposes"

    2 in what time frame? How are owners defined? How are personal purposes defined?

    Please make sure you are aware of these draft regulations and submit your written comments to the relevant offices.
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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Quote Originally Posted by OwenD View Post
    http://www.gov.za/sites/www.gov.za/f...01_gen74_0.pdf

    Have the implications and potential impact of such a policy shift been duly considered?

    Is domestic trade a good idea given the apparent lack of domestic market in SA?

    Is domestic trade without international trade at all going to benefit local farmers and rhino?

    Is there an adequate framework in place to effectively regulate and police the trade?

    Clauses that permit the exportation of rhino horn out of South Africa seem to need more elaboration, e.g.

    "... may export a maximum of 2 rhinoceros horns, and then only for personal purposes"

    2 in what time frame? How are owners defined? How are personal purposes defined?

    Please make sure you are aware of these draft regulations and submit your written comments to the relevant offices.

    doing the reading!

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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    This will be similar to the diamond trade only diamonds are far easier to identify as to whether they are conflict or responsibly sourced. The only thing that will stop this senseless barbaric slaughter is if government gets serious and judging by what happened at SONA the other day we are a long way away.

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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    my only real 2 concerns are the requirement for a permit for purchase at an auction - must be in place before being able to bid.

    that makes it very easy for cartels to buy up all Rhino horn. Probably being able to get a permit post auction for the purchase (but before taking delivery) would be a better option .

    second one I'll mention below.

    They aren't perfect, but they are certainly a good step towards sustainable Rhino farming in SA. Giving value to Rhinos and Rhino product will certainly make them more desirable as animals to be kept, and to make profit towards game farming which makes them defendable and people employable. hopefully it's not to late to turn the 'habit' of poaching around.

    the second concern is that this is very similar to the beach driving regs. It's all well and good saying it's possible to have a permit, but if the department is reluctant to actually issue a permit, it's meaningless.

    At least the Rhino farmers are (seemingly) more than happy to use the courts, and once such legislation is promulgated, it will be expected that permits be issued.

    Obviously - people are going to legally buy it and own it in SA - then once legally exported use it for 'medicinal' use, but that doesn't matter.

    If we can make Rhino farming sustainable , a change in attitude is very possible.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 2017/02/12 at 09:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    What's the population of China ?
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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    I have worked with anti-rhino poaching for quite some time. And during our work and studies we have asked the question of "how on earth you would be able to sustain such a large consumer market?"

    People tend to think it's only the Chinese that use rhino horn but they forget about the Thai and Vietnamese.

    Let's take China alone with a population of 1.386 Bil people and 10% end users. RSA has approximate 40 tons of rhino horn stored in Gov and Private storage.

    Now the following to think about:

    How long will that supply last to sustain the market?
    How many rhino are on private?farms that can be used for sustenance farming?
    What is the growth rate of rhino horn?
    How would horn harvesting effect the rhino social behavior?
    How would the government control legal trade if they can not control illegal trade?
    How would this be different to the ivory trade being legalized in 1986, which saw a rise in prices and influx again on poaching which in turn caused the ban to be reimplemented in 1989?
    Will legalizing the trade not give confirmation to the medical myths regarding rhino horn?

    In my opinion this is a quest by private owners and government to cash in on the trade. We can understand that private owners will bank the money made from rhino horn but lets be serious, will the government seriously use these fund for research and put the funds back into conservation?

    What will be next? Pangolins, elephants, shark fins.... why don't we just give them everything, sell it all then it is over and done with.

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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladiator JP View Post
    I have worked with anti-rhino poaching for quite some time. And during our work and studies we have asked the question of "how on earth you would be able to sustain such a large consumer market?"
    I used to be pro-selling, but the one question that always bugged me was is it sustainable? The current market in the East is miniscule in terms of the overall population but if you start selling rhino horn and encouraging use amongst potential new customers, the rhino would be wiped in no time at all.

    As hard as it may be to swallow we will have to keep on fighting and use demand reduction techniques.

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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Quote Originally Posted by RobH View Post
    I used to be pro-selling, but the one question that always bugged me was is it sustainable? The current market in the East is miniscule in terms of the overall population but if you start selling rhino horn and encouraging use amongst potential new customers, the rhino would be wiped in no time at all.

    As hard as it may be to swallow we will have to keep on fighting and use demand reduction techniques.
    That is exactly why the legal trade won't work. Exactly why the legal trade in diamonds has done nothing to stop the illegal trade. Nor the theft of diamonds... Or gold. Or anything of super-high value.
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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Quote Originally Posted by DarylB View Post
    That is exactly why the legal trade won't work. Exactly why the legal trade in diamonds has done nothing to stop the illegal trade. Nor the theft of diamonds... Or gold. Or anything of super-high value.
    I disagree.

    Diamonds, gold and so forth is a very rare commodity. there is only so much of it and it cannot be made or farmed.

    However, rhino horn is also scarce and becoming more scarce, why? Because there are less of them because they are being slaughtered / poached in large numbers.
    Farmers cannot afford the required security to look after them and because there is a ban on the trade they have no value whatsoever.

    Let's face it, right now it's a novelty because it's expensive and hardly anyone can afford it. Once it becomes regularly available to the general public in China or wherever they use it the novelty will wear off eventually and demand will drop because people will start to realize that it doesn't do what they think it does (whatever that may be). Meantime the animal as a species has fully recovered (and more) in numbers and the cruel poaching practice has ceased to exist.

    There are huge stockpiles of horn in south africa and if the market gets flooded and farmers can produce the product the price will drop, it's simple supply and demand principles.

    Horns can be harvested repeatedly from the same animal
    Huge effort would be put into breeding rhino because it would be profitable to do so.
    The illegal trade will cease to exist because the legal trade would be impossible to compete with, therefore there will be no more need/ demand for poaching.
    Rhino saved for future generations to see and appreciate.
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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietsweis View Post
    I disagree.

    Diamonds, gold and so forth is a very rare commodity. there is only so much of it and it cannot be made or farmed.

    However, rhino horn is also scarce and becoming more scarce, why? Because there are less of them because they are being slaughtered / poached in large numbers.
    Farmers cannot afford the required security to look after them and because there is a ban on the trade they have no value whatsoever.

    Let's face it, right now it's a novelty because it's expensive and hardly anyone can afford it. Once it becomes regularly available to the general public in China or wherever they use it the novelty will wear off eventually and demand will drop because people will start to realize that it doesn't do what they think it does (whatever that may be). Meantime the animal as a species has fully recovered (and more) in numbers and the cruel poaching practice has ceased to exist.

    There are huge stockpiles of horn in south africa and if the market gets flooded and farmers can produce the product the price will drop, it's simple supply and demand principles.

    Horns can be harvested repeatedly from the same animal
    Huge effort would be put into breeding rhino because it would be profitable to do so.
    The illegal trade will cease to exist because the legal trade would be impossible to compete with, therefore there will be no more need/ demand for poaching.
    Rhino saved for future generations to see and appreciate.
    Unfortunately that argument has been discredited many times over by attempts to breed other endangered species. The simple facts are that Rhinos breed way too slowly to ever be able to cope with the demand...and in any case those who farm Rhinos don't do it for altruism, the last thing they want is for the price of horn to fall. The potential market of consumers would also grow exponentially the cheaper it got...if it ever got cheaper.

    Sadly with consumers of products like this, for whom it's about status more than anything, once "farmed horn" hits the market entrepreneurs would start a parallel black market in "wild horn" at higher prices and once again stimulate demand for poached horns.

    Just look at diamonds. Few people other than jewellers can tell the difference between real diamonds and the synthetic cubic zirconia, or the gemstone moissanite, but ask your girlfriend or wife which she'd prefer you to buy her!
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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietsweis View Post
    I disagree.

    Diamonds, gold and so forth is a very rare commodity. there is only so much of it and it cannot be made or farmed.

    However, rhino horn is also scarce and becoming more scarce, why? Because there are less of them because they are being slaughtered / poached in large numbers.
    Farmers cannot afford the required security to look after them and because there is a ban on the trade they have no value whatsoever.

    Let's face it, right now it's a novelty because it's expensive and hardly anyone can afford it. Once it becomes regularly available to the general public in China or wherever they use it the novelty will wear off eventually and demand will drop because people will start to realize that it doesn't do what they think it does (whatever that may be). Meantime the animal as a species has fully recovered (and more) in numbers and the cruel poaching practice has ceased to exist.

    There are huge stockpiles of horn in south africa and if the market gets flooded and farmers can produce the product the price will drop, it's simple supply and demand principles.

    Horns can be harvested repeatedly from the same animal
    Huge effort would be put into breeding rhino because it would be profitable to do so.
    The illegal trade will cease to exist because the legal trade would be impossible to compete with, therefore there will be no more need/ demand for poaching.
    Rhino saved for future generations to see and appreciate.
    Have you read my post, go and do research yourself and then do the math.

    But give it all to them, the money hungry [email protected]&$ and the Chinese.

    It will be less for us to worry about.

    All this is, is about money for the local farmers.

    So legalize it and confirm every stupid myths these a-holes believe in.

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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    unfortunately the same old arguments from the warmongers (disguised as altruistic nature lovers)

    the bottom line is that there was never a problem with Rhino farming while trade in Rhino products was legal. The population had increased massively from near extinction in the late 60s, simply because there was value to farming Rhino and other livestock.

    banning trade in Rhino products - like banning drugs, alcohol, and anything else - created a mafia and a war.

    the war is very profitable for the warmongers, but sadly, not for Game farmers, and, 'apparently' the reason we are al there , not for the Rhinos.

    Wherever you stand, it is clear that the ban is not working, and is impossible to enforce.

    It is clear that until the ban was imposed, poaching was all but unheard of the Rhino population was on the increase.

    Rhino, like Lion, Bambis, cows, sheep, pigs, chickens and all the rest - are simply livestock.

    if you banned cow products tomorrow, you can guarantee that the couple of billion cows on the planet would become redundant and endangered pretty soon.

    If you plan on your great great grandkids being able to see a Rhino, you are going to have to understand that sustainable farming is going to be part of any conservation effort.

    Poachers will certainly take the last Rhino one day - if a Rhino has no value to anyone but a poacher.

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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    unfortunately the same old arguments from the warmongers (disguised as altruistic nature lovers)

    the bottom line is that there was never a problem with Rhino farming while trade in Rhino products was legal. The population had increased massively from near extinction in the late 60s, simply because there was value to farming Rhino and other livestock.

    the war is very profitable for the warmongers, but sadly, not for Game farmers, and, 'apparently' the reason we are al there , not for the Rhinos.

    Wherever you stand, it is clear that the ban is not working, and is impossible to enforce.

    It is clear that until the ban was imposed, poaching was all but unheard of the Rhino population was on the increase.

    .
    Sorry Alex, but the above is so riddled with inaccuracies that it is hard to know where to start, but let me try:

    Fact: 265 000: The black and white rhino population of Africa in the early 1970s. This was when the rhino wars started in earnest in Africa fueled by the demand for dagger handles in Yemen and medicinal products in the east. There was a catastrophic collapse in populations throughout Africa, and in 1977 Cites banned the international trade in horn. By then massive damage had already been done to rhino populations to the north of us, particularly in Kenya, Tanzania, Zambia, Sudan etc.
    Fact: 17 500: The black and white rhino population of Africa in 1995, almost all of them in Namibia and South Africa.
    Fact: Around 23 900: The black and white rhino population of Africa today, with most of the recovered populations descended from the core breeding populations in Hluhluwe-Imfolozi, from where the breeding stock came for Kruger, and for most of the privately held rhino.

    There simply are not enough rhino left to sustain a viable supply to the international market. This piece of draft legislation will put South Africa in direct conflict with its international obligations under Cites if adopted. I can't see it surviving a ConCourt challenge. The previous court challenge by John Hume et al was won on a technicality.
    Last edited by Tony Weaver; 2017/02/14 at 05:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Weaver View Post
    Sorry Alex, but the above is so riddled with inaccuracies that it is hard to know where to start, but let me try:

    Fact: 265 000: The black and white rhino population of Africa in the early 1970s. This was when the rhino wars started in earnest in Africa fueled by the demand for dagger handles in Yemen and medicinal products in the east. There was a catastrophic collapse in populations throughout Africa, and in 1977 Cites banned the international trade in horn. By then massive damage had already been done to rhino populations to the north of us, particularly in Kenya, Tanzania, Zambia, Sudan etc.
    Fact: 17 500: The black and white rhino population of Africa in 1995, almost all of them in Namibia and South Africa.
    Fact: Around 23 900: The black and white rhino population of Africa today, with most of the recovered populations descended from the core breeding populations in Hluhluwe-Imfolozi, from where the breeding stock came for Kruger, and for most of the privately held rhino.

    There simply are not enough rhino left to sustain a viable supply to the international market. This piece of draft legislation will put South Africa in direct conflict with its international obligations under Cites if adopted. I can't see it surviving a ConCourt challenge. The previous court challenge by John Hume et al was won on a technicality.

    I am referring to the South African situation to which the bill pertains.... yes, AFRICA had a population in the hundreds of thousands, but South Africa hasn't had those kind of numbers since the early 1800s

    yes, Africa north of South Africa had little management of their wildlife (and still doesn't really) and populations were decimated - and yes, for China, sold by get rich quick governments with little or no thought for sustainability. In much the same way as South Africa squandered it's wild life until the early 1900s when private ownership of game was allowed, and sustainable farming of wildlife became a reality.

    South Africa was, as you know, in dire straights in terms of animal management by the 1900s due to over hunting, and yet a small population was preserved - and FARMED COMMERCIALLY which has resulted in the population we now have in South Africa - which is the ONLY surviving population worth mentioning in the world.


    which population is currently being decimated by poachers. the poaching figures are now such that the population is decreasing through poaching.

    but you know all this.

    Poaching - the ban - is not a sustainable solution for the survival of Rhinos. this is more than clear. it cannot be disputed.

    Poaching has ONLY occurred since the CITES ban on trade occurred, and since then there is a Poaching mafia, and a full time poaching industry, which will take years to dismantle - and make no mistake - this is a DIRECT result of the CITES ban, and is the only thing the ban has achieved.

    which you also know.....

    judging a foreign nation on it's use of animal products is a pretty poor show for any liberal. We may not understand it, it may be misguided, but it's their thing. Condemmning the Eastern nations for what they do with Rhino horn is like condemning western nations for their love of unmarked calfs leather (have you seen where the leather on your car seats, boots, belts and wallets comes from and how it is farmed? an animal lover might well be shocked....)

    the current population is indeed capable of sustaining the international demand if it is properly farmed and the horn properly harvested. Certainly, a live, breeding Rhino with a horn that is harvested every 2 years or so is certainly better than a slaughtered one rotting in the veld, no matter how many poachers and anti poaching unit members are killed.

    I believe the supreme court have ruled on the trade in Rhino products insofar as this legislation goes - it's not only legal, it's compulsory.

    the only next level is in fact the Appeals court - it seems to me the dept. of the environment is not appealing though?
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 2017/02/14 at 07:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post

    Poaching has ONLY occurred since the CITES ban on trade occurred, and since then there is a Poaching mafia, and a full time poaching industry, which will take years to dismantle - and make no mistake - this is a DIRECT result of the CITES ban, and is the only thing the ban has achieved.
    Sorry, I don't have time to go through all of this as I have to go and cook some endangered tuna - but this is wrong.
    The Cites ban came in in 1977. Poaching peaked in the 1980s and early 1990s in Zimbabwe and Zambia (by then the East African populations had been decimated), and then tapered off completely, until some Vietnamese celebs started proclaiming they had been cured of cancer etc in the late 2000s.
    That is a 20 year hiatus in which poaching was negligible and the CITES ban was in place.
    Blaming CITES for the upsurge in poaching is simply bad science.
    And I am not just proclaiming this from my armchair - I have been working in this field (among many others) since 1983.
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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Weaver View Post
    Sorry, I don't have time to go through all of this as I have to go and cook some endangered tuna - but this is wrong.
    The Cites ban came in in 1977. Poaching peaked in the 1980s and early 1990s in Zimbabwe and Zambia (by then the East African populations had been decimated), and then tapered off completely, until some Vietnamese celebs started proclaiming they had been cured of cancer etc in the late 2000s.
    That is a 20 year hiatus in which poaching was negligible and the CITES ban was in place.
    Blaming CITES for the upsurge in poaching is simply bad science.
    And I am not just proclaiming this from my armchair - I have been working in this field (among many others) since 1983.

    cooking the Tuna for longer than a minute a side will be a true travesty.

    I'll look up the dates later - I'm putting a lump of cow on the coals.

    the actual date of the increase in poaching came about when South Africa banned the internal trade in Rhino products in line with the CITES ban.

    until that point, it was legal to hunt / sell / trade Rhino and products in SA and (obviously) it wa then illegally exported to feed demand in the east.

    which mean that farmers made enough money off sales to make breeding and keeping them viable.

    once it became illegal to trade in SA poaching skyrocketed, the poachers and cartels make the money and Rhinos have become a liability , not an asset or income, and the population will be eventually completely decimated.

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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Quick bit of swotting up - but I'm no expert. I do follow both the pro and anti trade sides.

    SA joined CITES in 1975, the Rhino ban came into effect in 1977 - but this was a ban on international trade. South Africa would have joined anything back then provided they didn't have to shut down apartheid and could continue trading (I think we were still a veto holding member of the UN at that stage, so it was also kind of expected? )

    In between the other things going on between the mid 70s and 1994 in terms of international sanctions and so on against south africa, it was largely ignored (and actually, ignored world wide)

    At the end of the day, it was still legal to trade in and export Rhino products within South Africa and to export from South Africa (to non CITES signatories or countries with laws allowing trophies etc) until 2009 .

    when one looks back at the reasoning behind the introduction of the CITES laws in the 70s, they coincided with a very big anti anything not Christian movement that occurred in the USA and Europe during the cold war. Arabic and Communist countries were targeted for anything they could be targeted for and their appetite for Rhino and Ivory was just another attack, while money was piled into them from oil sales.

    by that stage, as noted by Tony, most of Africa's Rhino and Ivory population was under serious threat from African dictators selling anything they could to bolster their country's incomes and keep them in Western trinkets while their populations starved. by the mid eighties there wasn't a Rhino population worth mentioning outside of South Africa.

    the sudden wealth of Arabic countries due to oil demand in the late 50s, along with no private ownership of game animals in Africa north of SA basically put paid to the hundreds of thousands of animals in Africa.

    in SA, from the early 1900s serious efforts had been made to farm wild life and make it sustainable after the pilalging of trophy animals of the previous 300 years. and, at the time, SA was pretty much isolated and had a serious army too.

    there would be no Rhinos in the world today had not 50 been kept back in the early 1900s somewhere in Natal as breeding stock and SOLD AS LIVESTOCK to farmers, who bred them as LIVESTOCK over the next 100 years.

    the 20 000 or so remaining in SA today are all descended from those early game farmers.

    during the sanction era, I am sure the income from Rhino horn (legally sold within SA and legally exported to non CITES member countries) was quite welcome.

    It meant that game farms could breed Rhino, put up massively expensive fences, buy many land cruisers and employ many rangers and really cuddle rhinos with the income obtained.

    Proper , decent animal management was the result - old and grumpy (or grumpier than usual) Rhinos were shot (cleanly) as trophies and proper breeding stocks were maintained.

    by the time 1994 rolled around , it was business as usual until someone decided that the Environment was a big thing that would employ the otherwise unemployable of South Africa.

    and someone mentioned the teeny little thing about the CITES membership. and the bunny huggers got all mental.

    and in the meantime the world was happening and the Arabs were getting fed up of being bombed and the Chinese and Vietnamese wanted to enter markets, and the bunny huggers got a couple of conditions in if they wanted to sell their stuff in 'merica.

    like sign the CITES convention.

    and thus, it came to pass, that in the early 2000s it started getting harder and harder to legally export Rhino products from South Africa.

    now - it is worth mentioning here, that until this point, EVERYONE was quite happy to toe the line and buy and export Rhino horn quasi - legally to a non member state like Yemen and send it off to the east to be inhaled. no problem. This was THE time of the curio trader in South Africa. 3 zebra skins please Mr. Africancurioexports , and oh, what the heck, is that a Rhino horn I see in the corner? lets have that too, for the kids you understand... It's important to note because people will generally do what is required to get what they want - right up until you tell them they can't have it. THEN they'll do whatever it takes to have it. human nature.

    then it was ... 'guys. my bunny hugger missus is carrying on about cute little rhinos being snorted by those guys from over there. but we aren't racist. but we don't really like them and their weird culture. so stop selling the flipping Rhino horns to the flipping Easterns or we'll have to cut off your grants'

    and Game farmers are whiteys and who cares, cut 'em off and let 'em starve. Did you say you have a uranium mine for sale?

    as I say, in the meantime, countries like Yemen joined CITES and the channels for legal export started getting cut off. but it was still legal to trade in Rhino horn in SA... and sure... the horns left the country. but AT LEAST the money was going to farmers and being used to protect and breed the species.

    in 2007, when the grumblings started about banning Rhino sales, and more effort was put into permits and specifically export permits where someone actually bothered to check where it was going - 13 Rhino were poached from SA game farms. apparently , prior to that, it didn't happen. it was legal sales only. I would not be at all surprised if game farmers simply claimed them poached back then, to make it easier for the horns to disappear as the record keeping was getting serious. this is, of course, only conjecture.

    2008 saw 83 poached and again, it was becoming harder to get those permits.

    in 2009 Domestic trade in Rhino product was banned in SA. no more permits.

    122 poached that year. again.... no doubt, back then , it was easier for Rhinos to ' disappear' and there was an awful lot of stockpiled horn sold and still available .

    2010 saw poaching take hold. 333 reported.

    the rest is history.

    we aren't allowed to know how many were poached last year.

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    CITES and the Rhino ban is an abysmal failure.

    Domestic trade will no longer just make the poaching problem go away - we have a mafia today, thanks to CITES. they don't want the profit on a horn like the curio traders of 10 years ago did. THEY WANT IT ALL.

    but, as noted - people will rather try and do it legally than buy from scoundrels. it's just better business. this is proven - lifitng prohibition put paid to moonshiners. lifting the ban on weed in the states has put paid to weed dealers. same as drug decriminalisation in European states.

    hopefully, returning the status quo in terms of domestic Rhino trade to the pre 2007 situation will mean some peace in the poaching 'war' in the next couple of years.

    and yes, that means some Easterners will be snorting Rhino horn, as they are right now.

    it's part of their culture. and it might take years to change it. Condeming another people's culture is a thing, it's up to you, but I think it's bigoted to do so.

    in the meantime, farming Rhinos to feed the demand is better than feeding it illegally.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Metaphorical 'Sigh". I'll try and summon the energy to do a rebuttal in the morning. My tuna was seared to perfection, in a coating of roasted sesame seeds on a wasabi mash and baby spinach leaves.
    Tony Weaver

    1991 Land Rover 110 Hi-Line S/W 3.5l V8 carburettor
    Cooper Discoverer STT tyres, four sleeper Echo rooftop tent
    2012 Mitsubishi Outlander.

    Previously Land Rover 1968 SII, 1969 SIIA, 1973 SIII, 1983 Toyota HiLux 2litre, 2006 Land Rover Freelander TD4 HSE.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Personally, my view is the argument that a legal trade in rhino horn will never be able to meet the demand for rhino horn is actually a moot point. Its true but doesn’t really have a bearing on the argument.

    There is already an unsustainable demand for rhino horn and as I am sure we all agree, eventually under the current system rhinos will pretty much be poached to extinction. The addition of legal rhino horn will not change this demand supply dynamic, that is the demand will still continue to outstrip the supply and prices will remain high. Essentially all the legalisation of the trade does is shift some of the current demand into farmed rhino horn from poached animals.

    The protection of rhino’s from poaching will have to continue. I also feel the argument that having legal rhino horn will increase poaching is fundamentally flawed, simply because people are already poaching rhino as quickly as they can. Poaching will only increase if protection decreases.

    I guess what I am saying is it would seem from what I have read (I will not pretend to be an expert though) is that introducing farmed rhino horn at worst will have no impact on the current poaching situation and at best will help reduce it slightly, so why not go with it?
    Last edited by Duggen; 2017/02/15 at 02:59 AM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Draft regulations for the domestic trade in rhinoceros horn

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    there would be no Rhinos in the world today had not 50 been kept back in the early 1900s somewhere in Natal as breeding stock and SOLD AS LIVESTOCK to farmers, who bred them as LIVESTOCK over the next 100 years.

    the 20 000 or so remaining in SA today are all descended from those early game farmers.
    Incorrect and generalised quote. You are talking about white rhinos which descended from Umfolozi in the 1930's. By the 1950's they had to start moving them which for a decade or two was a slow, laborious affair. The real shot in the arm for the white rhino came from the discovery and application of the drug M99 which meant you could knock out and control a rhino much quicker. Stock was moved to Kruger and around the world, not only game farmers in SA. In the meantime the black rhino population was taking an absolute hammering (as Tony has pointed out).

    If you break down the numbers of white rhino in SA it would probably look like this (off the top of my head, so don't crucify me). Total 20,000 of which Kruger has 10,000 KZN Parks 5,000 and private hands 5,000. Realistically that means that you have a pool of 5,000 animals to satisfy worldwide demand which stands at 1,000 per year (excluding the stockpiled horns). Without an increase in demand that is already a borderline figure as it will take nearly 3-5 years for a horn to regrow to a worthwhile size. And to breed the population up is not as simple as breeding cows, trust me, it's a lot more complex. So you would have a hiatus period of around 10 years before you could get a sizable chunk of harvesting stock into the system.

    So you have a situation where there is a risk of massive demand without feeder stocks and we all know what that will create - poaching on a scale that will be hard to fathom.

    I agree CITES is not perfect (heaven forbid it's anything but and the bunny huggers have way to much sway at the moment). But to allow trade and then have the government control it is even more dangerous for the rhino.
    Last edited by RobH; 2017/02/15 at 06:42 AM.

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