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  1. #1
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    Default Fording / Wading Discussion

    This thread was started by moving a lot from the Drowned Touareg thread.
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    Commiserations with your loss hope it works out in the end. (Originally referring to WEBLife's Touareg - Mods)

    I always remember Andrew St Pierre White's training video that stated "more vehicles are damaged in water than any other obstacle".

    Our group has become a bit too blas'e about water IMO. We have been through some really deep crossings (I had water over my bonnet in a puddle after the rains at Hennops (before the "real" water crossing) because I didnt bother to walk it and there was an unexpected hole. Thankfully no issues, but it was probably milliseconds away from disaster.

    In Botswana I insisted we all get towed through a crossing after walking it by a convenient Landcruiser with a snorkel (I had water 100mm up the windscreen on that one) my mates in their "indestructable" KZTE's wanted to take a chance.

    My mates arent mechanically minded and think I'm exaggerating about the risks which I think is half the problem, people dont really believe that its a real risk.
    Last edited by 4ePajero; 2008/11/11 at 01:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanB View Post
    "more vehicles are damaged in water than any other obstacle".
    Maybe true, but remeber that 56,2% of all statistics are made up on the spot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    , so basically, max wading depth is the point where the water has covered the top edge of the rim...
    For safety's sake, that doesnt sound too far off the mark.

    We've all seen the video clips of guys completely submerging their vehicles, and everything is a-ok, they just drive right through. Me, for example, I'm terrified of water. If the depth of, in your example is at the top of your rims, and you're driving correct speeds, correct entry speed, etc, your bow wave will be higher than your grill, or am I wrong? Now, lets say you slip in a hole, or you stall, or you have to stop quickly. If you drive a Musso, as above, you have water intake.

    In WEBlife's case, seems his intake could have been from some of those pipes he mentioned, that are actually lower than the air intake. If thats the case, and these pipes are lower than the quoted 580mm wading depth, i would think he has a case. Removing all errors on the part of the driver, the stated possible point of ingress of water is LOWER than the advertised 580mm. forget built in "fat", thats not going to stand. if those pipes, for example come down to 400mm form the ground, then 400mm is the V10's wading depth. Simple.
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    So many things play a part here which is why water crossings are always risky IMO.

    We've all ridden in a speed boat for eg. Most of the time you stay completely dry with the water well below you, but every now and then you get thoroughly wet from a wave or another boat's wake that breaks in the wrong spot etc. The point I'm making is that water isn't always well behaved and predictable when it comes to where it sloshes and slops.

    Add that to the fact your vehicle is suspended on springs and throw in an uneven surface and how can you be sure exactly how high any particular point on the vehicle is going to be from the ground at any point in time? All you need is the wrong bit to dip down too far by a few cm's at just the wrong time. Obviously this is made worse by certain road orientated intake designs.

    Eg my mates Pajero DiD which has the intake right in the gap between the bonnet and the front grill. First little dip of the nose below the water and I'm certain he'll drown the engine.

    The quoted wading depth is, I'm sure, an ideal maximum determined under ideal circumstances (hard smooth bottom, vehicle moving evenly at the right speed without lurching in and out of potholes or other undulations).

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanB View Post
    The quoted wading depth is, I'm sure, an ideal maximum determined under ideal circumstances (hard smooth bottom, vehicle moving evenly at the right speed without lurching in and out of potholes or other undulations).

    Agreed ... and i'm sure if one manufacturer states that their wading depth under an condition is say 300mm for safety's sake, when under ideal conditions (possibly even stationary, idle) it may be 500mm ... then watch how many vehicles they sell if their competition uses ideal measurements

    all vehicle stats (kw, nm, fuel consumption, interior noise, acceleration, braking etc) are all under ideal conditions and can hardly be repeated in practise ... only seems to follow that wading depth, being linked to dynamic water can only be measured under static, ideal conditions
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    And the devil's advocate would argue that that would be the loop hole through which the manufacturers would crawl, "driver discretion and responsible use" as wading depth can only be measured in perfect conditions.

    Ps: I am no advocate but I did work for a company manufacturing outomotive parts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanB View Post
    The quoted wading depth is, I'm sure, an ideal maximum determined under ideal circumstances (hard smooth bottom, vehicle moving evenly at the right speed without lurching in and out of potholes or other undulations).
    I'm willing to bet they probably drive into an empty swimming pool like structure, stop the vehicle, fill the pool up with water and where it starts ingesting water is the maximum wading depth. I take wading depth with a massive dose of salt(water)

    MY maximum wading depth (not the pajero's) is where water slops over the door sills, no more, before I get worried.
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    And the devil's advocate would argue that that would be the loop hole through which the manufacturers would crawl, "driver discretion and responsible use" as wading depth can only be measured in perfect conditions.
    .

    That's unfortunately what's probably going to happen here I think!

    The only way would be to prove that at no point across the entire water body was the depth more than say 75% (it would have to be substantially shallower, not just slightly shallower) of the quoted maximum wading depth or something along those lines if they (VW) decide to fight the claim against them.

    Hope I'm wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonB View Post
    I'm willing to bet they probably drive into an empty swimming pool like structure, stop the vehicle, fill the pool up with water and where it starts ingesting water is the maximum wading depth..
    I am pretty sure there is cheaper, quicker and more advanced methods, like CAD for example.

    But the picture was funny
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  10. #10
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    I did a bit of Googlin' and found that most vehicles' specified wading depth is only 400-500mm in any case.

    We all have seen vehicles wade through much deeper water though.

    It seems to me that the position of the intake is as crucial as the "wading depth".

    You can exceed the 'wading depth' by quite a margin, provided that

    • the air intake is 'behind' the bow wave'
    • you have a decent bow wave going, especially with a 'bow wave blanket' fitted
    • you don't stop !
    • you don' hit a sizable hole !
    • the radiator fan does not throw water into the air intake
    • etc

    I say these things to illustrate the variables present in the equation. The manufacturer (and his legal team) will pounce on one of these to discredit your claim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanB View Post
    .

    That's unfortunately what's probably going to happen here I think!

    The only way would be to prove that at no point across the entire water body was the depth more than say 75% (it would have to be substantially shallower, not just slightly shallower) of the quoted maximum wading depth or something along those lines if they (VW) decide to fight the claim against them.

    Hope I'm wrong.
    I'm not trying to be arguementative here but if the above is used then I would say that 75% of 580mm is the wading depth not 580mm. As far as I know the vehicle has to be fit for purpose or as advertised therefore 580mm is 580mm. They probably do have a VERY VERY controlled way of getting to 580mm but it then cannot be called "wading" maybe "safe submergence depth". "wading" is MOVING through water NOT being submerged until flows into something critical. (IMHO).
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    Quote Originally Posted by H2F View Post
    I am pretty sure there is cheaper, quicker and more advanced methods, like CAD for example.

    But the picture was funny
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    I see VW calls it "fording"....

    The online dictionary has the following on "fording" : the act of crossing a stream or river by wading or in a car or on a horse

    If they claim 580mm fording depth, then it must have been tested by "crossing a stream".... not a wading test in stationary water.
    Last edited by KobusDJ; 2008/11/06 at 03:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza1210 View Post
    I'm not trying to be arguementative here but if the above is used then I would say that 75% of 580mm is the wading depth not 580mm. As far as I know the vehicle has to be fit for purpose or as advertised therefore 580mm is 580mm. They probably do have a VERY VERY controlled way of getting to 580mm but it then cannot be called "wading" maybe "safe submergence depth". "wading" is MOVING through water NOT being submerged until flows into something critical. (IMHO).

    then again .. a good legal team will just say that the manufacturers recommendation to move SLOWLY through water is exactly that ... very very slow, so much so to not even cause a wave ... therefore level in the engine bay will not have a very dynamic level variation.

    impractical for any person on the planet ... but so.


    p.s. sorry if all these comments sound so negative ... i'm very scared of water anywhere near my engine, and i know there will be an uphill battle to get the dealers to fix anything for free, or even to get insurance to pay (tuffstuff excluded, Dirk). i'd rather be safe than shnaaid
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    As far as I know the vehicle has to be fit for purpose or as advertised therefore 580mm is 580mm.
    Ja I see what you mean, but what I'm saying is that you would have to prove that at no point did the relevant parts of the vehicle bounce below that height of 580mm whilst it was moving across an uneven surface, which is virtually impossible to do on a sprung vehicle - hence my arbitrarily chosen 75% - you have to show that the water level was well below that level (certainly if I was the company lawyer). The point I'm making is that 580mm must represent the maximum wading depth which can only be determined with the vehicle not bouncing up and down on its springs ie travelling on a smooth surface, as soon as it gets bumpy then one has to take into account vertical vehicle motion.

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    4ePajero's latest post shows the variance, and therefore the unpredictability, of conditions as far as something like this is concerned. It's quite possible to drown an engine while not even close to the maximum wading depth, but in somewhat different conditions and with some luck it's also possible to exceed the maximimum wading depth by quite a large margin without causing damage.

    After the floods in the Kalahari of '74 my granddad drove his Merc 350SE through a drift with the wavelets rippling over the front and sides of the bonnet because he was worried about a sick stud ram on the farm. No apparent damage; he owned that car until his death in '79.

    I would very much like to hear WV's response to this issue, but I've always taken wading depth as the depth to which one can take a vehicle without causing damage to the engine. Does that mean I'd take my own vehicle that deep? No way!

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    Guys, a question while on the topic of wading. Would a snorkel then increase your recommended wading depth?
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    no, wading stays the same. you have electronics etc.

    My fight here will be the insurance because

    1]I have a 4x4 and has not used it outside the parameters of its design ie I can go 4x4
    2]A patrol went thru meaning mine can as well
    3]No intention of damaging my vehicle cos I am still on holiday.
    4]It was the only route available at that time.

    This whole exercise tells me and all other 4x4 ers to

    1]Walk a obstacle [send the wife as you have to drive]
    2]Know your vehicle
    3]Move your insurance to tuff stuff [i get no commission]or suitable insurers
    4]Go play with fellow friends cos then you know what you can or cant

    ...........ps its the only car [v10] that I might swop for the Datsun [and you have to pay some bucks in]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willemvan View Post
    Guys, a question while on the topic of wading. Would a snorkel then increase your recommended wading depth?
    Electronics, gearbox & diff breathers all come into play. Its also not a good idea to change gear when in deep water unless you really have to. A snorkel however will prevent a unfortunate incident. So your electronics might go but you wont have a damaged engine. When its comes to overlanding I see a snorkel as not negotiable. There will no doubt be a time where there is hole you never saw etc. Its a relatively cheap investment if you look at what could happen.

    BTW I recall VW did a big trip with modified Touregs. They all had snorkels fitted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Webber View Post
    When its comes to overlanding I see a snorkel as not negotiable
    My family has been overlanding since the early 60's with series landies to cruisers to safari's, patrols and defenders and not one single vehicle has ever had a snorkel fitted.
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