D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK - Page 5





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  1. #81
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by Tombie View Post
    With respect Fluffy and Effie.

    This is simplistic however....

    (A battery will only take in what it can (its rating) - you can not force 130a for instance out of your alternator into a battery that has an absorption rate of (let's say 20a)...

    The charging system won't supply what can not be used..

    It's a simple matter of calling up manufacturers specifications for this to be plainly illustrated
    ...) Sorry bud - simply not correct.


    As for whether an Anderson connection to a charger will charge the Aux and Main batteries - a blanket statement of No is incorrect - as this will depend on the isolator/BMS being used.
    In my application for instance my BMS will reconnect if the auxiliary reaches a threshold and then allow the main battery to be charged..

    Everything is not so black and white...

    (And keep picking, my Electronics, Electrical, Engineering and Aircraft background is most intrigued - I just prefer to keep the information in laymans terms)
    Tombie, I fear dear Sir that you are missing the relationship between SOC, applied Voltage, available Current and battery capacity.

    Data sheets will tell you recommended charge rates etc, to preserve battery life etc. But the cars charge system cant read data sheets, so it simply applies the laws of physics.

    Quite simply the alternator will present a voltage at the terminals of the battery. The battery will respond, based on it SOC and type/size/capacity, by drawing current. This current will not be as per your example, a linear 10A for 4.5 hours. It will be a very high current initially, limited by the 4 parameters above, tapering off to near zero as the SOC increases. Theoretically in some circumstances this can be so severe that it actually damages the battery (Large charger with a high voltage and small battery) In a car you don't have this situation. The car cant supply enough energy fast enough to damage the battery.

    Please present the "simple matter of a manufacturers specifications" and explain this to me. And you don't have to stick to laymans terms. Feel free to delve in nice and deep.
    Cheers

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  2. #82
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckRogers View Post
    Is 20A a typical absorption rate ?
    and shouldn't it be amps per hour?
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  3. #83
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckRogers View Post
    Is 20A a typical absorption rate ?
    Around that is what I generally see in automotive batteries.

    Certain AGMs; mainly Optima and Odyssey have much higher inrush/charge rates and quickly start to get back to full charge.

    As mentioned above they then settle down for the final portion of their charge although it still remains quicker than the average, especially flooded cells.

    In the D4 CCF there is even the ability to change battery capacity and type to modify the vehicles energy management and charging profile.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by Tombie View Post
    Here are 2 examples I located quickly:

    The D34 Optima Yellow Top (my Aux batteries)
    Max inrush current - 100A


    Vs the Fullriver units in my camper
    A maximum inrush of 24a


    Regardless of what others claim - the Yellow top can accept a far higher rate of charge - enabling quicker charging when driving.

    The Fullriver units take significantly longer.


    In the Mums taxi application the D4 here regularly runs the primary battery down to 11.7v as the max run to work and back is 4 minutes each way.

    A run to the next town (74km each way) results in a resting voltage of 12.6v


    Your argument that a primary battery won't be at 50% SOC is incorrect and well documented here. Many have experienced reduced battery life of around 2-3 years if the vehicle doesn't get a nice long run.

    Those using chargers regularly are getting life spans of 5+.

    My vehicle as an example does a varying duty - short runs for a week or 2 and then runs over and exceeding 1000km.

    To claim that the battery isn't subject to low SOC from short run driving is ludicrous. Company engineers form such manufacturers as Exide, Yuassa etc beg to differ.

    Add to that the more recent D4s had a software patch released to change the profile for charging after numerous "Low Voltage: Start Vehicle" incidents where battery voltage had changed and we arrive back to the primary topic of this thread.

    The charging algorithm in the more recent LR vehicles is very biased towards economy and emissions and only increases alternator output significantly during overrun.
    Running monitoring equipment in these vehicles has logged this.

    When these vehicles are placed on charge the charger must "flow" via the Negative battery Lead via vehicle earth otherwise the vehicle does the following:

    During Engine start the vehicle checks previous SOC in history.
    Compares with SOC in battery.
    If there is disparity the vehicle believes there is a fault with the battery/charging system and brings up the message.

    This caused problems which the patched firmware reduced.
    Now why would you bring a DEEP CYCLE VLRA into a cranking battery discussion.

    Inrush current has got nothing to do with effective charge rate. Its a safety specification.

    My examples are based on Georges initial statement visa vi - moms taxi.

    There will always be other usage patterns that will result in a 50% SOC, but that's not what I was discussing.
    Cheers

    ZS5KAD
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  5. #85
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by Tombie View Post

    During Engine start the vehicle checks previous SOC in history.
    Compares with SOC in battery.
    If there is disparity the vehicle believes there is a fault with the battery/charging system and brings up the message.

    This caused problems which the patched firmware reduced.
    How is this not a problem when the battery is replaced ?

  6. #86
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckRogers View Post
    How is this not a problem when the battery is replaced ?
    On some vehicles you have to "reset" the OBC to tell it you have fitted a new battery.
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  8. #87
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Now why would you bring a DEEP CYCLE VLRA into a cranking battery discussion.

    Inrush current has got nothing to do with effective charge rate. Its a safety specification.

    My examples are based on Georges initial statement visa vi - moms taxi.

    There will always be other usage patterns that will result in a 50% SOC, but that's not what I was discussing.
    The FullRiver is a multipurpose battery - will crank and cycle.. so more than a reasonable comparison.

    There's also the Varta G14 - of very similar construction and one of the recommended batteries for D3/D4/RRS replacement.

    Put simply - Max charge current the Varta and the Full River will accept is ~20amps (hence why many of those useless devices known as DC-DC units are only built to 20a rate)

    The Optima on the other hand can comfortably accept a much higher charge rate happily. Shortening charge recovery duration by anything like 3 times.

    For people doing frequent, short duration, start-stop runs one of the following will help:
    - Higher charge capacity battery
    - regular maintenance charging/ top up by external charger.

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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckRogers View Post
    How is this not a problem when the battery is replaced ?
    D4 Has a Battery replacement function in the diagnostic systems.

  10. #89
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by Tombie View Post
    Put simply - Max charge current the Varta and the Full River will accept is ~20amps (hence why many of those useless devices known as DC-DC units are only built to 20a rate)
    Please tell me that you don't actually believe that rubbish.

    If you do then I am out of here. I am wasting my time.
    Cheers

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  12. #90
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    ----Trying my hand at being an amateur Forensic Linguist----

    Looking at grammar and the feverish use of the enter key, my hypothesis is that Tombie = hgbosch


    -------------

    As an aside, thanks to the guys promoting science and fact based robust advice on the forum, not anecdotal stories and experiences.

  13. #91
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by jarnojvv View Post
    ----Trying my hand at being an amateur Forensic Linguist----

    Looking at grammar and the feverish use of the enter key, my hypothesis is that Tombie = hgbosch


    -------------

    As an aside, thanks to the guys promoting science and fact based robust advice on the forum, not anecdotal stories and experiences.
    Your hypothesis is flawed.

    Tombie (I) am an Aussie based in Whyalla, South Australia...

    Those guys you claim are promoting Science and Fact are promoting OPINION...

  14. #92
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by Tombie View Post
    Your hypothesis is flawed.

    Tombie (I) am an Aussie based in Whyalla, South Australia...

    Those guys you claim are promoting Science and Fact are promoting OPINION...
    Surely not the same Tombie that is on AULRO?
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  16. #93
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Please tell me that you don't actually believe that rubbish.

    If you do then I am out of here. I am wasting my time.
    Well as I'm friends with an engineer from one of the manufacturers of DC-DC units which make a 20a and 40a version. And the design criteria was to meet the charging needs of most commercially available batteries charging capabilities. Then yes - I'd say that 20a was arrived at from a very logical point of view..

    Sorry you are leaving, don't let the door smack you on the arse on the way out

  17. #94
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by Tombie View Post
    Your hypothesis is flawed.

    Tombie (I) am an Aussie based in Whyalla, South Australia...

    Those guys you claim are promoting Science and Fact are promoting OPINION...

    Not getting suckered into your debate, but you know you can set your location anywhere you wish.

  18. #95
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by Tombie View Post
    Well as I'm friends with an engineer from one of the manufacturers of DC-DC units which make a 20a and 40a version. And the design criteria was to meet the charging needs of most commercially available batteries charging capabilities. Then yes - I'd say that 20a was arrived at from a very logical point of view..

    Sorry you are leaving, don't let the door smack you on the arse on the way out

    Why then even bother with a 40a? Is that then just to fleece the customers? No pun intended with fleecing, considering you are an aussie after all!
    Last edited by jarnojvv; 2016/09/19 at 12:35 PM.

  19. #96
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by jarnojvv View Post
    Not getting suckered into your debate, but you know you can set your location anywhere you wish.
    Well aware of that...Stalk my profile... google it if you like.. or come on over to AULRO and say g'day...

    All my vehicles images have South Australian Plates on them for starters...

  20. #97
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by jarnojvv View Post
    Why then even bother with a 40ah? Is that then just to fleece the customers? No pun intended with fleecing, considering you are an aussie after all!
    Fleecing jokes are NZ

    We shear sheep not shag them!

    Larger multi battery arrays, certain AGMs etc can take the 40a

  21. #98
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by Tombie View Post
    Well as I'm friends with an engineer from one of the manufacturers of DC-DC units which make a 20a and 40a version. And the design criteria was to meet the charging needs of most commercially available batteries charging capabilities. Then yes - I'd say that 20a was arrived at from a very logical point of view..

    Sorry you are leaving, don't let the door smack you on the arse on the way out
    This "Put simply - Max charge current the Varta and the Full River will accept is ~20amps" is the rubbish part.

    20A is probably the sweet spot from a safety point of view for most car size batteries, that's why the DC-DC are normally 20A.

    There is a HUGE difference between the recommended charge rate and what a battery will draw if you feed it enough.

    Now are you still saying the stuff in blue above.
    Cheers

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  22. #99
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    This "Put simply - Max charge current the Varta and the Full River will accept is ~20amps" is the rubbish part.

    20A is probably the sweet spot from a safety point of view for most car size batteries, that's why the DC-DC are normally 20A.

    There is a HUGE difference between the recommended charge rate and what a battery will draw if you feed it enough.

    Now are you still saying the stuff in blue above.
    What I haven't seen mentioned is the effective internal resistance of the battery. So the charge (and inrush) current depends on the voltage response of the receiving battery (i.e. how quickly or slowly the battery voltage changes), as well as its internal resistance. A higher resistance battery will have a lower charge current given the same battery voltage than a low resistance battery.

    Generally the battery charge current is limited by the ability of the battery to dissipate the heat generated by the chemical processes and ohm (resistance) losses. Which is not to say that it won't accept too much current: it will, but it also may overheat. But in most batteries as long as the temperature is OK, you can can up the amps (by cranking up the alternator voltage, assuming the the alternator has enough oomph).

    In terms of the control aspect, it seems that the D3 and D4(?) have current feedback so the that alternator output voltage changes to keep the charge current within some kind of limit.

    Correct? Just wondering what this argument is about?

    BTW, SMPS (Switch mode power supplies, or DC-DC power supplies), and more specifically their small size and high efficiencies, have revolutionised most of modern life. And they continue to evolve. So I wouldn't call them useless!
    Last edited by zoneout; 2016/09/19 at 01:24 PM.

  23. #100
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    Default Re: D4: Low Battery Warning - "Please start vehicle" with CTEK

    Due to opinions, thoughts, theories and fact all mushed together, I still know buggerall.

    I'll just carry on driving my Disco.

    THANKS FOR NOTHING!!!
    Last edited by Disco-Deon; 2016/09/19 at 01:37 PM.
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