Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures - Page 10





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  1. #181
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Hi Guys

    Sorry if I'm derailing the thread a bit here or if it has been mentioned and I missed it...

    I have a 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 and the crank broke with the previous owner and the whole engine was replaced (from Land Rover but installed by a reputable Indie Land Rover Workshop in September 2013. My question is, have Land Rover improved the design of the crank/engine to avoid the crank issue? I'm hoping then that my current engine is the improved one!

    Thanks!

  2. #182
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Surely there is an engineering company in SA that can manufacture billet cranks? Might be expensive but would be bullet proof.

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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    I am still not sure what the undercut means

  4. #184
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquiva View Post
    Hi Guys

    Sorry if I'm derailing the thread a bit here or if it has been mentioned and I missed it...

    I have a 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 and the crank broke with the previous owner and the whole engine was replaced (from Land Rover but installed by a reputable Indie Land Rover Workshop in September 2013. My question is, have Land Rover improved the design of the crank/engine to avoid the crank issue? I'm hoping then that my current engine is the improved one!

    Thanks!
    Hi Aquiva

    both the 14mm and the 16mm cranks have reported failures, both in 2.7lt and 3.0lt configs, i.e. both D3 TDV6 and D4 TDV6 3.0. The later D4 SDV6 diesels are only now coming out of extended warranty. So we will have to wait for percentage of incidences, as these infos are only available from indies and aftermarket parts/component suppliers.
    George Bosch
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  5. #185
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    George

    Please explain why you dont think its a good idea one cant swap out the crank at 150,000kms
    it sounds like the cheapest solution if you are worried and before anything breaks.

  6. #186
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by Desperate Dan View Post
    George

    Please explain why you dont think its a good idea one cant swap out the crank at 150,000kms
    it sounds like the cheapest solution if you are worried and before anything breaks.
    Hi Desperate Dan

    simply because you would swap a known issue with an unknown one. There is no way to identify a good from a bad crank, because the main issue is a casting issue. This is apart from the marginal integrity of the crank per se.

    So to strip and rebuild an engine just to have the crank of that rebuilt engine snap on you just doesn't make sense.

    There is no way to prevent a crank snap on its own. As far as preventing unnecessary grief with run bearings etc, there the approach that has worked well so far is the Poly-TFE treatment. It prevents excessive bearing wear. So the earlier you treat an engine, the better the protection. But remember, already present damage cannot be undone by using Poly-TFE.
    George Bosch
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  7. #187
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by Desperate Dan View Post
    George

    Please explain why you dont think its a good idea one cant swap out the crank at 150,000kms
    it sounds like the cheapest solution if you are worried and before anything breaks.

    I am not convinced it will be any cheaper and I am not sure prevention is better in this case

    I would however replace the harmonic damper pulley on the crank nose every 50k km - I feel it shifts and goes out of balance which contributes to this problem or pushes a weak component over the edge

  8. #188
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    George, my thinking is a new crank will last another 150,000kms, and that to replace it will be , what 40K? And that beats 70k for a new engine.

  9. #189
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by Desperate Dan View Post
    George, my thinking is a new crank will last another 150,000kms, and that to replace it will be , what 40K? And that beats 70k for a new engine.
    Yeah and if you get one of the bad ones, then you wasted all that money for nothing.

    Remember there have been 2 failures already last year with rebuilt engines with cranks failing inside 15K kilometres. These failures had absolutely nothing to do with the workmanship of the shops rebuilding those engines.

    I personally wouldn't take that chance until such time, that the issue with the cranks has been finally solved.

    Swambo's rig is sitting at 220'000km and it will be driven with that engine until it pops or until we trade it in on another vehicle.
    George Bosch
    2003 RangeRover Vogue 3.0 Td6 (Mine) / 2005 LR Disco3 TDV6 S (Swambo's) / 1998 Disco1 Tdi ES (Sold) / And some more serious stuff

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  10. #190
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by Desperate Dan View Post
    George, my thinking is a new crank will last another 150,000kms, and that to replace it will be , what 40K? And that beats 70k for a new engine.

    Fiddle, fiddle..... [email protected]#ked. Rather just leave it, it's working. If it breaks then cross that bridge when you get there.

    There a plenty Tdv6s going strong still, don't believe everything you read.
    Last edited by Byron; 2016/05/23 at 04:15 PM.
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  11. #191
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Then you get a new engine which pops 3 days after the warranty is out.
    so basically if your engine pops , then the car might as well be thrown away.

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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by Desperate Dan View Post
    Then you get a new engine which pops 3 days after the warranty is out.
    so basically if your engine pops , then the car might as well be thrown away.
    That is sometimes often the case with a lot of modern cars

    remember that maintenance and repair costs are typically tied to the purchase price of the vehicle when new - so an 800k vehicle with a 70k engine block doesnt seem too bad - a few years later
    but a 150k vehicle with a 70k engine block is a very different story


    many Audi tdi engines have the same fate and some petrol ones as well - oil pump failure or timing chain snaps and its scrap metal value only and there are plenty others - try get a sub assembly for a pajero 3.2 DID it is way tougher but it can and may fail

    its also why you can buy a 800k "value" car for 150k you bet against the odds of it happening

    look at a touareg v6 tdi circa 2007 - its six injectors alone can cost 64k but you can buy the whole vehicle for 149k a new touareg v6 tdi is at the million rand mark

  13. #193
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    I am currently driving Swambo's D3 as my Range is in with Sean (the Gearbox Company) for a new gearbox (lasted a full 100'000km longer than the normal deemed failure stage of the GM 5L40E gearbox).

    Now it is being rebuilt with improved components, so hopefully it will last longer this time around.

    But to get back to the D3, I am really enjoying driving this car. Yes it is mapped and yes I drive it between 1600 - 2900 rpm with enough oomph to "drag" other cars at the robot. And yes it is EGR blanked and decatted.

    And NO it does not smoke. While it hasn't got the luxury amenities of my BBRR Td6, it has much much more boot space AND it is a full 7-seater.

    So to cut the long story short, it is an awesome vehicle, and with a few precautionary measures it can be made to last (bar the crank issue which is like russian roulette).

    No wonder it is Swambo's most favourite car ever.

    This just had to be said.
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2016/05/24 at 12:12 AM.
    George Bosch
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  14. #194
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoFrans View Post
    I supplied a snapped crank WITH the damper that was on the crank when it snapped.Don't know what the outcome of the test was on the damper or if any test was done on the damper.The idea was to compare that damper with a new one.Carel Kriek volunteered to do the testing.
    Regards,
    Frans
    Whatever happened to this test?
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  15. #195
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    George, I received two pulleys . One from a broken crank and one new. Must still do the physical comparison test and relate to a dynamic simulation I am busy with on my computer. Trying to set up some kind of a correlation between measured stiffness of the rubber and harmonic modes of the pulley.
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  17. #196
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by Carel Kriek View Post
    George, I received two pulleys . One from a broken crank and one new. Must still do the physical comparison test and relate to a dynamic simulation I am busy with on my computer. Trying to set up some kind of a correlation between measured stiffness of the rubber and harmonic modes of the pulley.
    Hi Carel

    yes that was the original idea. Would be nice to have those test results. Once done, I will need the new pulley back. Please let me know and I will transfer you the money for sending via postnet.

    kind regards


    George
    George Bosch
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  18. #197
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by Carel Kriek View Post
    George, I received two pulleys . One from a broken crank and one new. Must still do the physical comparison test and relate to a dynamic simulation I am busy with on my computer. Trying to set up some kind of a correlation between measured stiffness of the rubber and harmonic modes of the pulley.
    Carel,
    I'am due for a 200k service next week and would like to somehow check the pulley.
    Any advice how to? Engine runs like a sewing machine and in the past that would have been good enough but with the crank scare I worry that the pulley may not be 100% anymore but I also don't like to just willynilly replace parts that are good - what to do?
    2005 Disco 3 TDV6


  19. #198
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by georgecape View Post
    Carel,
    I'am due for a 200k service next week and would like to somehow check the pulley.
    Any advice how to? Engine runs like a sewing machine and in the past that would have been good enough but with the crank scare I worry that the pulley may not be 100% anymore but I also don't like to just willynilly replace parts that are good - what to do?
    George, I have read up a lot on these harmonic damper pulleys lately in order to decide how I want approach my own testing/evaluation of the two pulleys received.

    To answer you short and sweet if it was my own TDV6 I would replace that pulley at 200k km without hesitation.

    Reason why I say so is that there are a number of failure modes not visible to the eye on these pulleys. The rubber or elastomer between the hub and outer ring of the damper pulley absorb a lot of deformation energy which has to be dissipated in the form of heat and depending on the profile of use of the car these rubber/elastomer material properties can take (and do take) a hammering. This has the effect of altering the material properties and so also the damping properties of the pulley which means it does not do its damping function at the engine speed where it is dearly required.

    So when the crank starts resonating in a rotational mode the damper does not do its work any more at the point where it is tuned to function and the alternating stress peaks in the crank shaft elevates to the danger levels where the fatigue life is drastically shortened.

    The pulley may look perfect, run absolutely true, no bulging or other visible deformations but silently and under cover does not perform as designed any more. A lot of what I have read dangerously points to the failure mode we have on these crank shafts in that they mostly break off near the crank pulley. The crank shaft is nicely damped on the flywheel/torque converter side and as you progress towards the front end of the engine it is damped mostly by friction of the pistons against the sleeves. At the pulley end of the crank shaft there is one of these huge balancing weights, undamped by piston no 1 and its fate is left to the harmonic damper pulley at the front of the crank.

    I do not single out the harmonic crank damper as the sole reason for all these failures but a very good candidate as one of the more serious contributors towards ultimate failure. Replacing them before high mileage cost relatively nothing compared to the damage and hassle caused by a broken crank shaft. (Costing less than R400?).

    I will post a lot of literature that covers the design and functioning of these pulleys in a weeks time when I have done my own tests and simulations on the two pulleys received.

    Regards.
    Last edited by Carel Kriek; 2016/06/09 at 08:09 PM.
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  21. #199
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Thks Carel, then I'll definitely replace it next week (assuming pulley in stock in CT).
    2005 Disco 3 TDV6


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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by Carel Kriek View Post
    George, I have read up a lot on these harmonic damper pulleys lately in order to decide how I want approach my own testing/evaluation of the two pulleys received.

    To answer you short and sweet if it was my own TDV6 I would replace that pulley at 200k km without hesitation.

    Reason why I say so is that there are a number of failure modes not visible to the eye on these pulleys. The rubber or elastomer between the hub and outer ring of the damper pulley absorb a lot of deformation energy which has to be dissipated in the form of heat and depending on the profile of use of the car these rubber/elastomer material properties can take (and do take) a hammering. This has the effect of altering the material properties and so also the damping properties of the pulley which means it does not do its damping function at the engine speed where it is dearly required.

    So when the crank starts resonating in a rotational mode the damper does not do its work any more at the point where it is tuned to function and the alternating stress peaks in the crank shaft elevates to the danger levels where the fatigue life is drastically shortened.

    The pulley may look perfect, run absolutely true, no bulging or other visible deformations but silently and under cover does not perform as designed any more. A lot of what I have read dangerously points to the failure mode we have on these crank shafts in that they mostly break off near the crank pulley. The crank shaft is nicely damped on the flywheel/torque converter side and as you progress towards the front end of the engine it is damped mostly by friction of the pistons against the sleeves. At the pulley end of the crank shaft there is one of these huge balancing weights, undamped by piston no 1 and its fate is left to the harmonic damper pulley at the front of the crank.

    I do not single out the harmonic crank damper as the sole reason for all these failures but a very good candidate as one of the more serious contributors towards ultimate failure. Replacing them before high mileage cost relatively nothing compared to the damage and hassle caused by a broken crank shaft. (Costing less than R400?).

    I will post a lot of literature that covers the design and functioning of these pulleys in a weeks time when I have done my own tests and simulations on the two pulleys received.

    Regards.
    Hi Carel

    thanks for that heads up. Once we have your results we can then move from there. So I will wait for your feedback

    kind regards
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2016/06/11 at 01:13 PM.
    George Bosch
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