TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem - Page 4





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  1. #61
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    If they know they would have fixed it for the next model, so we wait and we see.
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  2. #62
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    Default

    What is the lowest milage on TDV6 snapped crank we know of, and what is the latest year model?
    Last edited by bones; 2016/03/12 at 04:38 PM.
    Pieter

  3. #63
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    Quote Originally Posted by OwenD View Post
    If they know they would have fixed it for the next model, so we wait and we see.
    The big question is from whiat year onwards?
    2016 LC 200 VX, 2014 D4 SDV6 HSE(sold),2015 Suzuki Jimny, 2019 VW Tiguan 4mtion 2.0tsi(work vehicle), "A little Red Car", Swambo 2013 A3 Sportback Quattro, Bush Lapa Baobab 1873, Fusion 17 boat-Yamaha FT100hp 4st.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    Ok, now my box of popcorn is empty. I've know George for a couple of years, we both are passionate about our classic Mercs and Land Rovers.


    Give the man a break, the answer may come out, maybe not from George, but let's keep on digging for the truth.


    Can you imagine the chaos if it can be proven that it was actually a patent design flaw......the legal eagles will have a royal time......LR will either cry or try to get out of it, like another SUV brand that kept on loosing control on dirt roads........and now the VW scandal.


    For the sake of the TDV6 owners, let's all hope a good answer and remedy emerges, without throwing all those frot tomatoes and eggs at the individuals.
    Last edited by Thys Willemse; 2016/03/12 at 06:16 PM.
    2015 Pajero Sport 2,5 Di-D 4x4 5-spd Auto, STOFPAD eng & gbox plate, new engine courtesy Mitsubishi at 95k km.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post
    Now to the issue at heart of this posting. With the "filled for life" policy of the auto transmission, is there perhaps a possibility of the torque converter not locking properly...
    Highly, highly unlikely to cause MORE vibration. More slip yes.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
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  6. #66
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike N View Post
    Eish people, the answer (from an engineers point of view) is simple. The crankshaft does not have sufficient fatigue strength for the full actual use duty cycle in the Dicso application. One would have hoped for the so-called infinite life design of the crankshaft, clearly they did not achieve that objective in this application. All other issues discussed here are just operational factors contributing to the fatigue cycles and specific fatigue loading. Further, fatigue failure being a statistical event, you will have a huge spread over the population due to a variety of factors.
    Would go with that!
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  7. #67
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    Default Putting the crank in context of engine range

    Here are some of the numbers that sit around their crank-houses ...

    Some of these motors generate a lot more KW ,NM, etc
    and push a lot more weight ...
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    * The Monarch of the Glen *http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/...1&d=1507751251
    Land Rover Owners dont idle long ...
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  8. #68
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    OK,

    20 years ago, we simply could not get the kW and NM from motors we get today.

    Vehicles were lighter- you are welcome to investigate that.

    But cranks were one of the components that just about never goes bang.
    1999 Discovery 1, 300 Tdi - "Tink Tanky"
    2004 Discovery 2 Td5 - "Blink Tanky"

    "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence."

    "A technician will let a system degenerate to the level of his understanding and maintain it there."

    "...it is abundantly clear that you are an arrogant C-nut." - Estee. (I was overwhelmed. It was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a week!)

  9. #69
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    Everything was grossly over engineered back then. Today its borderline engineering with a compromise between longevity, reliability, Performance, economy, weight etc.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    I still think it has something to do with the KW, NM and engine capacity configuration vs load. The discovery 4 with the bigger engine capacity (hence bigger heavier crank)does not break cranks. Worth investigating.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    One thing to keep in mind is that the modern diesel can almost rev like a petrol motor and the old 22-1 compression ratio has come down to turbo boosted figures. due to the advances in the composition of metals and manufacturing the cranks are a lot lighter and stronger allowing the higher revving engines. Has the fine balance between light and strong been broken?
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  12. #72
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post
    Hi All

    Regarding the issues with the snapped cranks, I am now starting to wonder, if we haven't all been barking up the wrong trees

    One of my customers in KZN who services a growing number of TDV6 vehicles hasn't had one single engine failure with a snapped crank. Not one zilch nada.

    The following points are done by that workshop:

    1. Regular ATF flushing of the auto transmission (not double flush but complete scavenging of the old oil)
    2. Replacement of oil pump when doing a Cambelt change
    3. Engine oil and filter change every 10'000km with 10W40 oil.

    While discussing the possible causes of those failures, we also questioned why the Torque converters on the TDV6 are smaller than the ones on the V8.

    Another potential source of problems could be the flimsy front crank balancer/Poly-V pulley (2-part rubber moulded design).

    Now to the issue at heart of this posting. With the "filled for life" policy of the auto transmission, is there perhaps a possibility of the torque converter not locking properly, thereby setting up a source of vibration, which along the crank is then amplified until breakage occurs at the weakest spot, which is always between the #2 big end and #2 main journals. This could also explain the squashed bearing shells, which occur on these engines and lead to bearing failures.

    Looking forward to discuss this further. Please lets keep this thread constructive. No abusive comments!

    Those bearings in the pic`s tell me a different story. I am not even going to try and post any suggestion. Have see a lot of engine inners in my live, rebuild many and even build more performance engines.


    The safest way here to solve this problem is to get a lab and a tribologist involved. There are labs out there that specialise in investigating engine failures. They can "read" the cause of the fracture or failure with several high tech testing processes and equipment.


    I cannot see how this problem can be solved without the help of a lab and proper testing facilities. Wearceck comes to mind.
    Now the TDV6 being a high tech engine as state a hundred times in these threads, dammit get high tech technology to solve the problem
    Get a company to install vibration sensors.
    A good tribologist can via oil samples and other monitoring devices make very good predictions of what is busy to happen in a engine.


    We have just completed a vibration monitoring project on one of the mines to save 500kw 3.3kv electrical motors.
    The technology is out there use it.
    Last edited by grips; 2016/03/13 at 05:55 AM.
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  13. #73
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem


  14. #74
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    Hi janseekat

    that company has a very good reputation in UK. But to bring one of those engines here would be prohibitive with the current exchange rate.
    George Bosch
    2003 RangeRover Vogue 3.0 Td6 (Mine) / 2005 LR Disco3 TDV6 S (Swambo's) / 1998 Disco1 Tdi ES (Sold) / And some more serious stuff

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  15. #75
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    Quote Originally Posted by hbannink View Post
    One thing to keep in mind is that the modern diesel can almost rev like a petrol motor and the old 22-1 compression ratio has come down to turbo boosted figures. due to the advances in the composition of metals and manufacturing the cranks are a lot lighter and stronger allowing the higher revving engines. Has the fine balance between light and strong been broken?
    Hi hbannink

    I know of two incidences, where a faulty front balancer caused a crank snap. In both instances the bearings were fine. And I think grips made a very valid point regarding solving these issues.

    We need to discuss this whole issue further and hopefully eventually someone will come up with the right fix.

    That would be to the benefit of all TDV6 owners.
    George Bosch
    2003 RangeRover Vogue 3.0 Td6 (Mine) / 2005 LR Disco3 TDV6 S (Swambo's) / 1998 Disco1 Tdi ES (Sold) / And some more serious stuff

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  16. #76
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post
    Hi hbannink

    I know of two incidences, where a faulty front balancer caused a crank snap. In both instances the bearings were fine. And I think grips made a very valid point regarding solving these issues.

    We need to discuss this whole issue further and hopefully eventually someone will come up with the right fix.

    That would be to the benefit of all TDV6 owners.
    George, in all sincerity, the time has come to stop discussing and postulating and do some real scientific tests on broken hardware as has been proposed a number of times here. This will go on and on and on and really has reached the stage where all (or most possibilities) have been put on the table but now needs to be verified in a proper way.

    To start off a couple of broken cranks can be analysed for fatigue as has been proposed by some members. Once that has been established one could follow that up with reasons for these fatigue failures. For example go and test a couple of crank harmonic damper pulleys for stiffness against the properties of new ones.

    Every now and then the crank pulley comes up as a suspect but there it stays then when it can be a simple test to verify. (If you can arrange a couple of old pulleys that comes from broken crank engines I will offer to do the tests - for free). At least we can start doing something.

    All the discussions were good and put a lot of information and possibilities on the table but to get to the root cause(s), tests and analyses will have to be done going forward.

    Regards.
    2008 Discovery 3 V8 HSE
    2015 Bushlapa Miskruier 395 (...hy het nie naam nie, sy naam moet hy nog kry....)
    Previous: 2000 Discovery 2 TD5 SE, XT 140

  17. #77
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Carel Kriek View Post
    George, in all sincerity, the time has come to stop discussing and postulating and do some real scientific tests on broken hardware as has been proposed a number of times here. This will go on and on and on and really has reached the stage where all (or most possibilities) have been put on the table but now needs to be verified in a proper way.

    To start off a couple of broken cranks can be analysed for fatigue as has been proposed by some members. Once that has been established one could follow that up with reasons for these fatigue failures. For example go and test a couple of crank harmonic damper pulleys for stiffness against the properties of new ones.

    Every now and then the crank pulley comes up as a suspect but there it stays then when it can be a simple test to verify. (If you can arrange a couple of old pulleys that comes from broken crank engines I will offer to do the tests - for free). At least we can start doing something.

    All the discussions were good and put a lot of information and possibilities on the table but to get to the root cause(s), tests and analyses will have to be done going forward.

    Regards.
    Carel I agree with you and Grips 100%. But in all fairness that should not have to be up to a bunch of enthusiasts who care and are fanatic about the brand.

    Let me see if I can get some samples for you. Once I have sourced I will send you a pm.

    kind regards


    George
    George Bosch
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  18. #78
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    I am pretty damn sure that JLR must have done extensive research into the cause of these failures.

    The best source of information would be JLR UK, but it may take a Class Action law suit to force them to spill the beans. Either that or some concentrated and serious social media pressure.
    Cheers

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  19. #79
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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    I am pretty damn sure that JLR must have done extensive research into the cause of these failures.

    The best source of information would be JLR UK, but it may take a Class Action law suit to force them to spill the beans. Either that or some concentrated and serious social media pressure.
    No doubt JLR must have looked into this. Could be quite satisfying winning a Class Action law suit with some own test results! Many TDV6 owners will smile!

    Regards.
    2008 Discovery 3 V8 HSE
    2015 Bushlapa Miskruier 395 (...hy het nie naam nie, sy naam moet hy nog kry....)
    Previous: 2000 Discovery 2 TD5 SE, XT 140

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    Default Re: TDV6 Snapped Cranks A new look at this vexing problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Carel Kriek View Post
    No doubt JLR must have looked into this. Could be quite satisfying winning a Class Action law suit with some own test results! Many TDV6 owners will smile!

    Regards.
    ... Effective case could surely only be reasonably lodged by
    A very effective argument by complainants

    Who:

    Hadn't used exotic engine oil additives etc ...
    didn't have Chinese crank-shafts etc
    Had not ' remapped' and ' chipped ' their motors etc
    Hadn't otherwise ' performance enhanced' their motors
    Etc etc etc .....

    ... all over and above duly following
    the standard recommendations and duties of ownership
    of maintenance and upkeep and use etc ...

    Then after that would need lodge a technically sound and convincing case
    Polished sections ,reflected light microscopists etc
    Tribologists
    Forensic Metallurgists and engineers etc etc whatever
    Last edited by BushNomad; 2016/03/13 at 11:00 AM.
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