tdv6 rebuild kit - any good ? - Page 4





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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossJ View Post
    Stephen
    Using that logic those other items should be replaced regardless of crank snapping

    I am suprised that egt gauges are not fitted by owners as an early warning system

    Maybe because of injector monitering on the d3 it is t needed ?
    Don't get me wrong. I am all for cheap. i am however saying that if you as a dealer/indie need to offer some sort of warrantee on the resultant fix, you would want to be sure that things that could have caused the original failure, are not going to do the same again. Hence you want to ensure that cooling system is A1 and in the event the injectors are overfueling you want to ensure they are not going to cause the new engine to go bang.

    If you are prepared to do it on the cheap, then fine, but know there may still be some underlying cause that has not been addressed. I had an old Ford that always overheated and after a few head gaskets, and radiator recores, it turned out the be the viscous fan that was the issue. Also did a rings and bearing job on an old golf and it was awful shortly after.

    The problem with a "cheap" rebuild is that each time you do something that involves opening up the engine, you are in for new fluids, and probably a few gaskets at the least. Those costs start to total up pretty quickly especially with good oils and antifreeze etc.

    There is also the issue, of "if I've got it stripped down this far, I may as well do it all." As mentioned it can be quite a pig to get to some things in situ, so while it is all in pieces, it is a good time to do it once and properly.

    That is the tradeoff you play each time you do a partial rebuild. Obviously sorting out everything properly on a 1600 golf motor with Carb, is a lot cheaper than doing the same on a TDV8 RR motor, so that is something that needs to be borne in mind but I assume that injector prices have come down on TDV6s and you don't have to source form the agents. I think they are single biggest ticket item apart from a sub on a TDV6 rebuild.

    Cheers
    Stephen

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    This thread is becoming the thread all D3 owners need in case of the worst happening and finding the best route for repair depending on budget, there is no right or wrong on any of the comments made, I believe getting the injectors checked as a minimum for any residual damage would be a minimum if the heads are not being removed.

    Discoeast thanks for your input any pictures you have and experience would be great for this forum and the disco3.co.uk forum. Please keep us all posted as we watch with intrigue as to your progress (as a DIY project?)
    Owning a Discovery 3 is like dating a model.. a firm body and shape, wow.. the ride is fantastic for this your wallet can take a pounding and you worry about being dumped at any time...

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    DIY, Mmmmmm, lets just say I'm doing something that has been done before, but by very few. I will post some pics which would be relevant to the spirit of the OP, just be patient, it's HOLIDAY time.
    2007 TDV6 S
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    Hi All

    rebuilding the TDV6 engine WITHOUT LINE BORING THE BLOCK will land you in deep water.

    It might take 5000km or 100'000km but such an el cheapo repair will bite you in the bud sooner or later.

    As I have posted in this and other threads countless times, the TDV6 is a very finnicky engine to rebuild. You either do it 100% right without taking any short cuts or you will end up either doing it a 2nd time or scrapping the unit.

    I have been faced over the past 40 years a number of times with such a situation and believe me I also learnt the hard way that cutting corners will end up costing much much more than doing it right the first time.

    When one of my old Mercs burnt a hole into a piston due to a malfunction of one of the injectors (direct injection engine, 1955 vintage) back in 2003, I had to bite the sour apple and send it to HK Engineering near Munich to have the engine rebuilt.

    They were very expensive but they know how to rebuild them so that the engine lasts. Now 12 years later I know, that the money was well spent. Today the same job would cost ZAR 0.95 Mio at the current low value of our currency.
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2015/12/22 at 10:44 PM.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post
    Hi All

    rebuilding the TDV6 engine WITHOUT LINE BORING THE BLOCK will land you in deep water.

    It might take 5000km or 100'000km but such an el cheapo repair will bite you in the bud sooner or later.

    As I have posted in this and other threads countless times, the TDV6 is a very finnicky engine to rebuild. You either do it 100% right without taking any short cuts or you will end up either doing it a 2nd time or scrapping the unit.

    I have been faced over the past 40 years a number of times with such a situation and believe me I also learnt the hard way that cutting corners will end up costing much much more than doing it right the first time.

    When one of my old Mercs burnt a hole into a piston due to a malfunction of one of the injectors (direct injection engine, 1955 vintage) back in 2003, I had to bite the sour apple and send it to HK Engineering near Munich to have the engine rebuilt.

    They were very expensive but they know how to rebuild them so that the engine lasts. Now 12 years later I know, that the money was well spent. Today the same job would cost ZAR 0.95 Mio at the current low value of our currency.

    Hi George
    I am quite confused and concerned why you should make such a bold statement. " WITHOUT LINE BORING THE BLOCK"


    Please explain to the forum your interpretation on Line Boring. With out going back to your nineteen voetsek cars that you worked on when General Motors was still a CORPORAL. This thread is about the 2.7 TDV6 diesel motors fitted to the Discovery 3.
    Then please explain what is needed to be line bored and why it is needed to be line bored. Please try and stay on topic.
    Thank You.

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  6. #66
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    Ja boet, I've been spun that line before, just picked up my motor and moved on to the next reputable engineering shop, problem solved.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgwinduna View Post
    Hi George
    I am quite confused and concerned why you should make such a bold statement. " WITHOUT LINE BORING THE BLOCK"
    Thanks Peter - just bring it all back to earth again.
    I assume you have not seen this kit on your table so anything you say is guesswork here.

    What is your opinion of using a kit like this when crank bearings have gone? I think we all realise that when the crank snaps much more damage can occur internally.

    Purely your opinion and guesswork based on years of working on these motors, not driving millions of Km's with all sorts of classics...
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post
    Hi nitrious

    rather go with the CME solution. Then at least you know that the bearing issue has been solved.

    These engines need to be line bored to take the stronger tagged and pinned bearings.

    The same goes for the conrods.
    Every time there is a thread about the TDV6 then every time CME gets punted?? Wasnt there issues as well with some on their rebuilds that didnt last ?

    What guarantee is there that line bored block, tabbed bearings and bigger bearings are not going to go the same path as the original engine?

    Who on this forum have a CME rebuild with a 100K plus kilos on the rebuild engine? or even just 50K km?

    There were stories of soft cranks oil pumps that cracks, bearings that floats etc. It seems to me that nobody really knows what the Achilles heel is of these motors?

    Like i said before the TDV6 can be rebuild by any decent Engineering firm. The bearings can be tabbed, block line bored and crank polished or cut for under R10000-00

    Rebuild spares.
    Main bearings R2055 set
    big end bearings R2055 set
    Ring set R910-00 set
    Pistons x6 @ R602 ea = R3612-00 per set
    Top stretch bolts R536 for two sets
    Head gasket set R1713-00
    Head gaskets x 2 @ R1000-00 set
    Sub assembly gasket set R900
    Piston sleeves R200-00 ea x 6 = R1200-00
    Oil pump R3595-00 (original from Landrover)
    That gives you a grand total of R17576-00 for spares

    Ad a set of injectors at roughly R20000-00 and labour at lets say R30000-00??

    That brings you to a grand total of R77576-00
    Ad a new crank at R15000-00 and the total goes to R92576-00 for a literally brand new engine.

    Now how does CME rebuild that same engine for R130K
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkie7 View Post
    Every time there is a thread about the TDV6 then every time CME gets punted?? Wasnt there issues as well with some on their rebuilds that didnt last ?

    What guarantee is there that line bored block, tabbed bearings and bigger bearings are not going to go the same path as the original engine?

    Who on this forum have a CME rebuild with a 100K plus kilos on the rebuild engine? or even just 50K km?

    There were stories of soft cranks oil pumps that cracks, bearings that floats etc. It seems to me that nobody really knows what the Achilles heel is of these motors?

    Like i said before the TDV6 can be rebuild by any decent Engineering firm. The bearings can be tabbed, block line bored and crank polished or cut for under R10000-00

    Rebuild spares.
    Main bearings R2055 set
    big end bearings R2055 set
    Ring set R910-00 set
    Pistons x6 @ R602 ea = R3612-00 per set
    Top stretch bolts R536 for two sets
    Head gasket set R1713-00
    Head gaskets x 2 @ R1000-00 set
    Sub assembly gasket set R900
    Piston sleeves R200-00 ea x 6 = R1200-00
    Oil pump R3595-00 (original from Landrover)
    That gives you a grand total of R17576-00 for spares

    Ad a set of injectors at roughly R20000-00 and labour at lets say R30000-00??

    That brings you to a grand total of R77576-00
    Ad a new crank at R15000-00 and the total goes to R92576-00 for a literally brand new engine.

    Now how does CME rebuild that same engine for R130K
    Hi Sakkie

    your comments in red.

    Those failures emanated from components not replaced (turbos/injectors etc) on the specific instruction of the customer. This is the precise reason, why CME now insists on having the key ancillary components replaced, when rebuilding an engine, to prevent such nonsense.

    I can only re-iterate again, and believe me I do have sufficient experience in this field (also how not to do it - i.e. leergeld in Afrikaans) to know, that there are no shortcuts when rebuilding a TDV6 or TDV8 engine.

    You also forgot to add a new turbo and your pricing on the injectors seems very low, especially in view of the current GBP exchange rate.

    One very interesting point is, that according to Andrè from CME there is a much lower occurrence of the 16mm thread crankshafts snapping, this despite the vehement denials from JLR that there is no difference in strength between the 14mm and the 16mm cranks - makes one wonder .....
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2015/12/23 at 09:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post
    Hi Sakkie

    your comments in red.

    Those failures emanated from components not replaced (turbos/injectors etc) on the specific instruction of the customer. This is the precise reason, why CME now insists on having the key ancillary components replaced, when rebuilding an engine, to prevent such nonsense.

    I can only re-iterate again, and believe me I do have sufficient experience in this field (also how not to do it - i.e. leergeld in Afrikaans) to know, that there are no shortcuts when rebuilding a TDV6 or TDV8 engine.

    One very interesting point is, that according to Andrè from CME there is a much lower occurrence of the 16mm thread crankshafts snapping, this despite the vehement denials from JLR that there is no difference in strength between the 14mm and the 16mm cranks - makes one wonder .....
    So the fact is that nobody knows 100% why these engines grenades?
    My personal viewpoint is that any engine is a piece of precision engineering and should be treated like that at all times when rebuilding.
    I take my own 2.7crd Jeep motor. I rebuild that engine back to standard. Then i ran into financial problems due to a company who liquidated themselves. That meant that i could not have my injectors rebuild. The Jeep engine then failed due to injectors over fueling.
    So i do understand the necessity to change ancillary components if it is needed.

    It still does not explain why CME are charging the exorbitant prices they do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgwinduna View Post
    Hi George
    I am quite confused and concerned why you should make such a bold statement. " WITHOUT LINE BORING THE BLOCK"


    Please explain to the forum your interpretation on Line Boring. With out going back to your nineteen voetsek cars that you worked on when General Motors was still a CORPORAL. This thread is about the 2.7 TDV6 diesel motors fitted to the Discovery 3.
    Then please explain what is needed to be line bored and why it is needed to be line bored. Please try and stay on topic.
    Thank You.
    Hi Peter

    your comments refer and earlier comments in other threads questioning my stance (or is it sanity) about replacing the oil pump at cambelt changing time.

    You of all persons should know better, that the two main criteria of TDV6 engine failures are bearing damage and oil pressure related issues.

    To answer your question, here it goes:

    1. Engine with bearing damage and/or snapped crank or crank with hairline cracks.

    a) After a bearing failure (turned or dislodged bearings), without line boring, correct seating of bearings cannot be guaranteed. And so the next bearing failure would already be pre-programmed.

    b) Modified (stronger) bearings can only be fitted, if the block has been line-bored/prepared for this.

    Rebuilding a TDV6 without fitting modified, properly seated bearings is not worth the trouble, i.e. like a half job.

    Snapped cranks are are an issue all of their own and not necessesarily linked to bearing failure.

    Hope this explains it for you
    George Bosch
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    Thread deleted by self.
    Last edited by tgwinduna; 2015/12/29 at 06:17 PM. Reason: thread Deleted by self

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    I want to try and put all of this into context... originally as a trained apprenticed instrument maker and precision engineer working in Microns in the nuclear and aerospace industries, I believe I can comment objectively.

    Currently one of my business interests in the UK includes an Engineering company that makes bearing tooling for a Japanese automotive and industrial power and marine diesel engines so I believe I have credentials to provide an insight to this whole episode.

    After purchasing two D3 earlier this year to replace my long standing D2's in SA I was also impacted by the, in my view, unfounded scare stories. After careful research I found the TDV6 is no worse than any other motor and put a defence accordingly on this forum. There have been crankshaft failures and acknowledged by LR, more than probably the competition but not on the scale widely reported here. In the UK there have been only a handful. If you search the disco3 site for "engine failure" by thread topic you get 64 in total, "crank failure" 5 this is a global site for D3 owners.

    In the last 35 years I have always rebuilt my own engines as I do not trust re-manufacturing companies - sorry if you are in that game just being honest.

    These rebuilds have included classics, through to the Triumph stag V8 which is a complicated beast which had its own unfounded bad reputation, right up to last year my Td5 on my Disco 2.

    Each engine I rebuild is judged purely and simply around the tolerances as defined by the factory specs.. Each one has only had the necessary components changed if they were out of spec., the bores only get a hone if in spec.

    In my younger days I replaced the piston rings and big ends on my Vauxhall Cavilier in 1 day as it was my day to day transport and did a further 60,000k's without incident. I then sold it to my cousin who did a further 50,000k's before it was scrapped due to rust. In 30 years and many 100,000's of KM's I never had a failure on these engines as I go through all the ancillaries during the rebuild.

    The truth of the matter is it comes down to the quality and expertise of the individuals who undertake the work. There is however cause and effect, which generally means in engineering that the symptoms get treated not necessarily the cause, quite often there is a chain reaction of events that do not get picked up.

    In summary no engine requires re-manufacturing unless the components are out of tolerance and cannot be economically replaced. No time served precision engineer that I personally know will tell you otherwise. I will agree however get your injectors and turbo checked over and most of all ensure your cooling system is in top condition with LR's own coolant.
    Owning a Discovery 3 is like dating a model.. a firm body and shape, wow.. the ride is fantastic for this your wallet can take a pounding and you worry about being dumped at any time...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post
    Hi Peter

    your comments refer and earlier comments in other threads questioning my stance (or is it sanity) about replacing the oil pump at cambelt changing time.

    You of all persons should know better, that the two main criteria of TDV6 engine failures are bearing damage and oil pressure related issues.

    To answer your question, here it goes:

    1. Engine with bearing damage and/or snapped crank or crank with hairline cracks.

    a) After a bearing failure (turned or dislodged bearings), without line boring, correct seating of bearings cannot be guaranteed. And so the next bearing failure would already be pre-programmed.

    b) Modified (stronger) bearings can only be fitted, if the block has been line-bored/prepared for this.

    Rebuilding a TDV6 without fitting modified, properly seated bearings is not worth the trouble, i.e. like a half job.

    Snapped cranks are are an issue all of their own and not necessesarily linked to bearing failure.

    Hope this explains it for you

    George


    This is my problem. This thread is about a kit from the UK which to my mind is very good and inexpensive, now read the contents and you will find it has a NEW crank and NEW main bearings std size. NOW why on earth do you need to line bore the main bearing seats. You know from experience on the Land Rover motors there is never any outer shell damage only inner shell damage. CME line bores because they fit a bigger specialised bearing. Come on this is simple logic and knowledge and you of all people should know. Stick to the OP's subject and don't come on with tunnel vision focusing on something different.
    I am late and out of here Merry Christmas

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgwinduna View Post
    If ever I have read the biggest load of crap on the forum this thread takes the cake And it is by a TROL who obviously has nothing to do and comes here to do it!
    The parts prices you are quoting must be thumb sucked if not please quote supplier details and contact numbers because I want to buy up all of their injectors.
    To get to your bottom end price you have either cleverly or by ignorance left out a new turbo and CRD pump. Now go and get those fancy prices of yours and edit your post and then you will have all the answers.


    Weren't you the person who had a recondition Jeep motor blow up in your face. Then I suggest you spend more time on the Jeep forum.
    I do not suck thumb. I do phone around for prices.
    As you so nicely asked i got a quote from masterparts for the spares as listed. For the oil pump you can phone Landrover Cape town Speak to Kobus at Tel: 021 413 9810 . The pump is R4179-00 vat inclusive.
    For the rest of the spares the prices that i have quoted above were all from Materparts about 6 months ago. So i do apologize if the weak dollar has vervongfaaid my prices of earlier slightly. A pdf is attached with the prices .
    I have put an question mark behind the injector prices as i have not priced them.
    As for the Turbo and injector pump, why would you change it if there is nothing wrong with it? By all means if they are fubar then replace, but if it is just the engine that you rebuild due to a bearing knock or crank then why replace them?
    As for the Jeep engine..that was due to faulty injectors that i took on myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgwinduna View Post
    George


    This is my problem. This thread is about a kit from the UK which to my mind is very good and inexpensive, now read the contents and you will find it has a NEW crank and NEW main bearings std size. NOW why on earth do you need to line bore the main bearing seats. You know from experience on the Land Rover motors there is never any outer shell damage only inner shell damage. CME line bores because they fit a bigger specialised bearing. Come on this is simple logic and knowledge and you of all people should know. Stick to the OP's subject and don't come on with tunnel vision focusing on something different.
    I am late and out of here Merry Christmas
    +1 that is what I eluded to in my thread...

    Lets all take a chill pill...Merry Christmas everyone... lets all go get a beer and long may the TDV6 gods look after you in the festive season.
    Owning a Discovery 3 is like dating a model.. a firm body and shape, wow.. the ride is fantastic for this your wallet can take a pounding and you worry about being dumped at any time...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgwinduna View Post
    George


    This is my problem. This thread is about a kit from the UK which to my mind is very good and inexpensive, now read the contents and you will find it has a NEW crank and NEW main bearings std size. NOW why on earth do you need to line bore the main bearing seats. You know from experience on the Land Rover motors there is never any outer shell damage only inner shell damage. CME line bores because they fit a bigger specialised bearing. Come on this is simple logic and knowledge and you of all people should know. Stick to the OP's subject and don't come on with tunnel vision focusing on something different.
    I am late and out of here Merry Christmas
    Hi Peter

    I would NEVER!!!! rebuild a TDV6 motor without having it modified with properly tabbed bearings.

    And once again you are wrong. Have you ever wondered why I didn't bother to really take you on about your babbling about the Poly-TFE issues.

    Forumites

    just have a look at these TDV6 bearing pictures and then decide what really is.

    BTW: img4082 shows outside chafing marks which originate from the bearing turning.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2015/12/23 at 11:41 AM.
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    Just as a matter of interest. New injectors from Ebay at R 4,321.01 ea as per http://www.ebay.com/itm/LAND-ROVER-D...9WXDhH&vxp=mtr

    That brings the total to about R27000-00 with shipping included for brand new injectors. So the ? R20k wasnt to far of the mark.
    Sakkie van Staden
    Silver de Lange.2003 WJ Jeep..NOW powered by a 4L VVTI V8 Defy motor Forum Rebuild thread

    2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee 2.7 CRD Diesel power....4 inch Home build Long arm lift
    Past
    Jeep 3.1 Wj..AKA Turbo Esel (RIP)
    Man made it....Man Fix it.....
    I'm going to use all my tools, my God-given ability, and make the best life I can with it.
    LeBron James

  19. #79
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    As you all know, I went through this a while ago.

    My motor was a total rebuild excluding injectors. Cost was R96k. I could have bought a secondhand motor for R60k and install it with no real warranty. Or do it right and drive this car till the wheels fall off.

    Turbo rebuild is R7500 and a new Turbo is R15k.

    The way I see it, What is the price of a new D4 SE? After my rebuild I now know I drive a car that cost me R300k including buying price. That if I buy new would cost me R700k plus.

    I can add I'm standing now on about 15 000km after rebuild and Gizmo is running like a swizz watch.

    If I could do it over, I would buy the cheapest D3 I can find drive it till it goes up in smoke, and do the rebuild.
    2012 Jeep Rubicon Call of Duty MW3
    Synergy 3" lift
    Metal Cloack Gamechanger Arms
    Fox 2.0
    Project4WD Bumpers
    DirtyLife Beadlocks
    37" Mickey Thompson MTZ P3

  20. #80
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    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by castos View Post
    As you all know, I went through this a while ago.

    My motor was a total rebuild excluding injectors. Cost was R96k. I could have bought a secondhand motor for R60k and install it with no real warranty. Or do it right and drive this car till the wheels fall off.

    Turbo rebuild is R7500 and a new Turbo is R15k.

    The way I see it, What is the price of a new D4 SE? After my rebuild I now know I drive a car that cost me R300k including buying price. That if I buy new would cost me R700k plus.

    I can add I'm standing now on about 15 000km after rebuild and Gizmo is running like a swizz watch.

    If I could do it over, I would buy the cheapest D3 I can find drive it till it goes up in smoke, and do the rebuild.
    Hi Castos

    your arguments are spot on!

    The weak points of the TDV6 engine are well documented from UK to here to down under.

    So when rebuilding a TDV6 without fixing the underlying design flaw (bearings), then - sorry to put it so bluntly - you could as well flush your well earned money down the toilet.

    The earliest documented failure of a rebuilt engine (normal bearings) is at 5000km with (turning) bearing failure.
    George Bosch
    2003 RangeRover Vogue 3.0 Td6 (Mine) / 2005 LR Disco3 TDV6 S (Swambo's) / 1998 Disco1 Tdi ES (Sold) / And some more serious stuff

    Distributor for:
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