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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJ Junkie View Post
    I hope so :-).
    Could you make some more valid points and explain why you think a dc may not be good value buy for some people? Hard suspension and poor use of the load bin? I'm considering its merits over a suv.
    Michael
    2007 Pajero 3.2 Di-D
    Every statement I make comes with the proviso that I don't know what i'm talking about.
    It's a terrible thing, I think, in life to wait until you're ready. I have this feeling now that actually no one is ever ready to do anything. There is almost no such thing as ready. There is only now. And you may as well do it now. Generally speaking, now is as good a time as any. Hugh Laurie

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    Hilux v6
    Regards,

    William

    D4 v8 --Sold



    Quote Originally Posted by Murray Walker
    I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mic_zw View Post
    Could you make some more valid points and explain why you think a dc may not be good value buy for some people? Hard suspension and poor use of the load bin? I'm considering its merits over a suv.
    I don't think you can buy a half-decent DC 4x4 for less than R400-R450k? 2nd hand prices are equally exorbitant, for what is essentially an adapted delivery vehicle. How often do you see a bakkie with stuff in the back anyway?

    If you set out to design the worst possible suspension configuration for offroad use, you'd probably end up with a combination of leaf springs on one end & independent on the other. Then there's the offroad angles. The approach angle tends to be ok but the wheelbases are too long & the departure angles are terrible.

    Due to aerodynamics & weight due to separate chassis, none of them are particularly good with regards to fuel consumption, not even the diesels.

    There must be any number SUVs that will do what a bakkie does plus more. They also tend to be lighter, safer, faster & generally much easier to live with. Plus you can leave things in the back of an SUV whilst you pop into a shop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XJ Junkie View Post
    I don't think you can buy a half-decent DC 4x4 for less than R400-R450k? 2nd hand prices are equally exorbitant, for what is essentially an adapted delivery vehicle. How often do you see a bakkie with stuff in the back anyway?

    If you set out to design the worst possible suspension configuration for offroad use, you'd probably end up with a combination of leaf springs on one end & independent on the other. Then there's the offroad angles. The approach angle tends to be ok but the wheelbases are too long & the departure angles are terrible.

    Due to aerodynamics & weight due to separate chassis, none of them are particularly good with regards to fuel consumption, not even the diesels.

    There must be any number SUVs that will do what a bakkie does plus more. They also tend to be lighter, safer, faster & generally much easier to live with. Plus you can leave things in the back of an SUV whilst you pop into a shop.
    Tx. I think I've been over valuing the larger packing space factor. I already have enough space in paj especially with roof rack.
    Michael
    2007 Pajero 3.2 Di-D
    Every statement I make comes with the proviso that I don't know what i'm talking about.
    It's a terrible thing, I think, in life to wait until you're ready. I have this feeling now that actually no one is ever ready to do anything. There is almost no such thing as ready. There is only now. And you may as well do it now. Generally speaking, now is as good a time as any. Hugh Laurie

  5. #25
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    I just when thru the same think you did. Same price and wanted something that will last. I'm a big Isuzu fan, like you said at that price you are 100k km to 150k km. And the Isuzu's I seen all had some kind of spray work. Or just badly looked after. So I moved to the ranger, 3.2 4x4 dc or extra cab. I found a lot near to that 100k km but if I took longer than 10 min to think about it. It was gone. Then I could not get good offers for my BMW. Also those guys claiming gearbox, diff, motors that given in. Well let's just say I just need one of those to pack it's bags and I'm stuck. So I walked away.

    Then I looked at a Tuna. Got what I wanted for the BMW. The tuna is a big family car with 7 seats and it was 4x4 with 100k km on th clock. Mine came with an extended warranty and service plan. It was also at 250k so I took it. Very happy. I'm a rep and carry a lot of bags. The tuna takes it all with not problem. So for a family 4x4 that's a good way to go.

    Also that d4d motor is strong and so is the drive train. So it will last me very long.....
    2010 Toyota Fortuner 2 4x4.
    2001 Isuzu KB320 Frontier 4x4.
    2012 Polo GT White with community sticker.

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    Packing space is about their only virtue, but a bigger SUV has loads of space anyway. Accessibility is just better on an SUV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willben View Post
    Hilux v6
    I just had a quick look at autotrader & saw a few for around R550k & an Amarok for R620k. Is this what they cost?

    But then there's any number of 2015 Pajeros & even a few 3.2 Trailhawks for not much more. Rather get something like those & a trailer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garreth G View Post
    The tuna is a big family car with 7 seats and it was 4x4 with 100k km on th clock. Mine came with an extended warranty and service plan. It was also at 250k so I took it. Very happy. I'm a rep and carry a lot of bags......
    Aren't you worried about mileage? How many kms would you do in a year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mic_zw View Post
    Tx. I think I've been over valuing the larger packing space factor. I already have enough space in paj especially with roof rack.

    If you really want to see how ineffective a DC's loading bay is then go and measure its volume and compare it to say, a Nissan NP Zoo. Those mega wheel arches really takes away all the space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XJ Junkie View Post
    Aren't you worried about mileage? How many kms would you do in a year?
    Well anything bellow that the price jumps. I'm not worried for the type of motor it has they can do alot more. I'm planing on keeping this for 10 to 15 years. Mine also came with a extended warranty to 220k km or 2017. Also I'm a rep, so I can do up to 40k km a year no problem. But I drive a polo daily and my better half the tuna. She only clocks 9k km a year.....
    2010 Toyota Fortuner 2 4x4.
    2001 Isuzu KB320 Frontier 4x4.
    2012 Polo GT White with community sticker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XJ Junkie View Post
    I just had a quick look at autotrader & saw a few for around R550k & an Amarok for R620k. Is this what they cost?

    But then there's any number of 2015 Pajeros & even a few 3.2 Trailhawks for not much more. Rather get something like those & a trailer.
    There is one for sale in Brits for R260K, 2011 model with 120000km on the clock.
    Regards,

    William

    D4 v8 --Sold



    Quote Originally Posted by Murray Walker
    I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuzukiPiet View Post
    My advice:. Short daily drive is not ideal for a turbo diesel.
    Maybe expound on this, I getting my first Diesel, why should this be if it has no DPF?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bundutrailer View Post
    Maybe expound on this, I getting my first Diesel, why should this be if it has no DPF?
    Hi Bundu, I'm not an expert, so don't take my word as law...I personally have not done proper research, so my opinion is based on assumptions and perceived trustworthiness of articles (and conversations with people around me) only.

    It is once again a hard opinion to prove, but most of the (more authentic-looking) articles I've read seem to agree that you will not be saving in terms of maintenance cost + initial cost vs fuel economy.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...rticle4099688/
    http://www.mynrma.com.au/motoring-se...ith-diesel.htm
    https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/petrol-diesel-878

    There are of course plenty of articles also stating the opposite.


    If I had to simplify my thought train (and assumptions) it would be something like this: compare a modern TD engine to a naturally aspirated petrol engine. I don't feel this is an unfair comparison, since a N/A diesel engine is VERY lazy and very hard to come by these days (bar the 1HZ Land Cruiser).
    • The petrol engine is a lot simpler, thus fewer components to break. The diesel engine is more complex: more sensors, more components, more filters, more electronics
    • The petrol engine is not too sensitive to dirty fuel, the contrary is true for the diesel
    • The petrol engine reaches operating temperature quicker
    • The petrol engine has less components exposed to extreme temperature and pressures
    • Opinion: services and breakages on diesel engines tend to be more expensive
    • DPF (which, to be completely honest, I did not even know about before you mentioned it! Maybe a good indicator of my lacking knowledge! )
    But really my main emphasis of that post was on two things:
    1. the difference in initial buying price (that extra R30k-R50k is a LOT of fuel in the tank!) and
    2. Buying a cheaper, newer car rather than a more expensive older car (100 000km+)

    P.S. I won't force my opinion on anyone else, nor is my opinion cast in stone. I am open to (better) evidence and others opinions.
    Last edited by SuzukiPiet; 2015/12/04 at 07:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garreth G View Post
    Well anything bellow that the price jumps. I'm not worried for the type of motor it has they can do alot more. I'm planing on keeping this for 10 to 15 years. Mine also came with a extended warranty to 220k km or 2017. Also I'm a rep, so I can do up to 40k km a year no problem. But I drive a polo daily and my better half the tuna. She only clocks 9k km a year.....
    It does make sense then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willben View Post
    There is one for sale in Brits for R260K, 2011 model with 120000km on the clock.
    Pajero or Tuna? Either way it's still better option than a bakkie.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuzukiPiet View Post
    Hi Bundu, I'm not an expert, so don't take my word as law...I personally have not done proper research, so my opinion is based on assumptions and perceived trustworthiness of articles (and conversations with people around me) only.

    It is once again a hard opinion to prove, but most of the (more authentic-looking) articles I've read seem to agree that you will not be saving in terms of maintenance cost + initial cost vs fuel economy.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...rticle4099688/
    http://www.mynrma.com.au/motoring-se...ith-diesel.htm
    https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/petrol-diesel-878

    There are of course plenty of articles also stating the opposite.


    If I had to simplify my thought train (and assumptions) it would be something like this: compare a modern TD engine to a naturally aspirated petrol engine. I don't feel this is an unfair comparison, since a N/A diesel engine is VERY lazy and very hard to come by these days (bar the 1HZ Land Cruiser).
    • The petrol engine is a lot simpler, thus fewer components to break. The diesel engine is more complex: more sensors, more components, more filters, more electronics
    • The petrol engine is not too sensitive to dirty fuel, the contrary is true for the diesel
    • The petrol engine reaches operating temperature quicker
    • The petrol engine has less components exposed to extreme temperature and pressures
    • Opinion: services and breakages on diesel engines tend to be more expensive
    • DPF (which, to be completely honest, I did not even know about before you mentioned it! Maybe a good indicator of my lacking knowledge! )
    But really my main emphasis of that post was on two things:
    1. the difference in initial buying price (that extra R30k-R50k is a LOT of fuel in the tank!) and
    2. Buying a cheaper, newer car rather than a more expensive older car (100 000km+)

    P.S. I won't force my opinion on anyone else, nor is my opinion cast in stone. I am open to (better) evidence and others opinions.
    Can someone help me with my maths and logic.

    Diesel on Pajero I get 8km/l . An equivalent petrol would give me say 5.5km/l. I do 15000kms per year.

    Therefore I calculate a R12000 fuel saving per year. Back of a ciggy box calc. Rough.

    If the 2nd hand petrol version is say R30k cheaper then that's worth 2.5yrs of fuel. If its R24k cheaper then thats 2 yrs of fuel. Ball park.

    If you add average additional maintenance costs for a diesel then that increases things a little. But by how much?

    Is my thinking correct?
    Last edited by mic_zw; 2015/12/04 at 08:26 AM.
    Michael
    2007 Pajero 3.2 Di-D
    Every statement I make comes with the proviso that I don't know what i'm talking about.
    It's a terrible thing, I think, in life to wait until you're ready. I have this feeling now that actually no one is ever ready to do anything. There is almost no such thing as ready. There is only now. And you may as well do it now. Generally speaking, now is as good a time as any. Hugh Laurie

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mic_zw View Post
    Can someone help me with my maths and logic.

    Diesel on Pajero I get 8km/l . An equivalent petrol would give me say 5.5km/l. I do 15000kms per year.

    Therefore I calculate a R12000 fuel saving per year. Back of a ciggy box calc. Rough.

    If the 2nd hand petrol version is say R30k cheaper then that's worth 2.5yrs of fuel. If its R24k cheaper then thats 2 yrs of fuel. Ball park.

    If you add average additional maintenance costs for a diesel then that increases things a little. But by how much?

    Is my thinking correct?

    Your thinking is correct and even the services won't even have a major influence in your case.

    However, the calculations change drastically if you change the input parameters. I feel that the R30k price difference is accurate for the new car market, but too low for the second hand market. Now for a personal comparison it is easy, because you know which diesel car you would buy and you know which petrol car you would buy - take those figures, plug them in. If we make it more general, we need to compare apples with apples (as far as possible).

    For the sake of the exercise, I compared a few examples on www.valueforest.co.za for 2013 Hilux D/C 2.7 petrol vs 2013 Hilux D/C 3.0 diesel (4x2 bakkies). See screenshot below.

    The average price difference (for +-same km) was closer to R55 000. Now if we work with 7km/l for the petrol and 11km/l for the diesel (thumb-suck) then your breakeven moves out to 5.3 years or 80 000km (at 15000km/year), which becomes more substantial (and involves more breakages and services).

    Also, keep in mind that vehicle financing will add another 10-15% per year on your outstanding amount...
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    Last edited by SuzukiPiet; 2015/12/04 at 09:27 AM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuzukiPiet View Post
    Your thinking is correct and even the services won't even have a major influence in your case.

    However, the calculations change drastically if you change the input parameters. I feel that the R30k price difference is accurate for the new car market, but too low for the second hand market. Now for a personal comparison it is easy, because you know which diesel car you would buy and you know which petrol car you would buy - take those figures, plug them in. If we make it more general, we need to compare apples with apples (as far as possible).

    For the sake of the exercise, I compared a few examples on www.valueforest.co.za for 2013 Hilux D/C 2.7 petrol vs 2013 Hilux D/C 3.0 diesel (4x2 bakkies). See screenshot below.

    The average price difference (for +-same km) was closer to R55 000. Now if we work with 7km/l for the petrol and 11km/l for the diesel (thumb-suck) then your breakeven moves out to 5.3 years or 80 000km (at 15000km/year), which becomes more substantial (and involves more breakages and services).

    Also, keep in mind that vehicle financing will add another 10-15% per year on your outstanding amount...
    Great. Tx Piet. Yes the payback period changes with inputs. But as you show the result can be significant on some comparisons. I guess people are wrongly put off petrol because of its high consumption. These calls really do put it into perspective
    Michael
    2007 Pajero 3.2 Di-D
    Every statement I make comes with the proviso that I don't know what i'm talking about.
    It's a terrible thing, I think, in life to wait until you're ready. I have this feeling now that actually no one is ever ready to do anything. There is almost no such thing as ready. There is only now. And you may as well do it now. Generally speaking, now is as good a time as any. Hugh Laurie

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