Is it wise to remove the CAT and blanking of the EGR?





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  1. #1
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    Default Is it wise to remove the CAT and blanking of the EGR?

    After reading and the recommendations, I decided to take the big step by removing the CAT and blank of the EGR on my Disco 3 a 2008 model with 151 000 km on the clock. I have serious doubts weather this was the correct thing to do.

    Since the removal of the CAT and blanking off the EGR have resulted in large amounts of white smoke been produced when idling i.e. in slow moving traffic and or stationed. Once on the open road it seems fine. It also seems that there is a misfire on start-up and the engine is not running smoothly.

    I have contacted the agents to arrange for a diagnostic test and they informed me that there is no sense in doing the test due to the blanking off of the EGR as the diagnostic test will give false readings.

    Any ideas as what could be wrong & what would you suggest as a way forward?

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    Hi Gert

    you have got injector issues on your rig. Removing the cat and EGR has made the underlying problem visible.

    Not correcting this ASAP!!!!!!! can cost you an engine.

    Just for the record:

    1. Decatting will save the turbo on your engine

    2. EGR blanking will prevent gunk accumulating in the intake manifold and will extend the life of your engine.

    So yes Decat and EGR blanking are sensible items to do. I have decatted and EGR blanked my D1 300Tdi, Swambo's D3 and my FFRR Td6.

    And I will do it anytime again with a "new" vehicle.
    George Bosch
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    Hi George,

    It doesn't sound very good!! . I will arrange to get the injectors tested ASAP.

    Many thanks and regards

    G

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gert Buitendag View Post
    After reading and the recommendations, I decided to take the big step by removing the CAT and blank of the EGR on my Disco 3 a 2008 model with 151 000 km on the clock. I have serious doubts weather this was the correct thing to do.

    Since the removal of the CAT and blanking off the EGR have resulted in large amounts of white smoke been produced when idling i.e. in slow moving traffic and or stationed. Once on the open road it seems fine. It also seems that there is a misfire on start-up and the engine is not running smoothly.

    I have contacted the agents to arrange for a diagnostic test and they informed me that there is no sense in doing the test due to the blanking off of the EGR as the diagnostic test will give false readings.

    Any ideas as what could be wrong & what would you suggest as a way forward?

    Hi Gert
    Ja agents are very pedantic about the removal of EGR's and there is a reason for it and it does throw out the diagnostics.
    When you remove the cat you will get excessive smoke and a pungent sulphur dioxide smell from the exhaust that you never experienced before this normally lasts for 3 weeks to a month depending on the length of the trips. The EGR ( exhaust gas reticulation or recirculation ) When the EGR opens it is exhaust heat temp opposed to normal intake temp. This comes with a gooey sticky residue which attaches to the walls of the plenum intake. Now when the EGR's were blanked off did they wash out the air intake plenum, if not then that sticky tar like substance in bit by bit blown into the engine and combusts with the diesel. Most cases it is harmless and does cause smoking and in some acute cases it can fowl up injector nozzles or even damage the turbine wheel in the turbo.
    I did it way back to my Disco 3 MY08 and it did take some time for that smoke to go away, I also bombed my car with a good quality injector cleaner to speed it up to stop smoking that is.
    Take Care
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgwinduna View Post
    Hi Gert
    Ja agents are very pedantic about the removal of EGR's and there is a reason for it and it does throw out the diagnostics.
    When you remove the cat you will get excessive smoke and a pungent sulphur dioxide smell from the exhaust that you never experienced before this normally lasts for 3 weeks to a month depending on the length of the trips. The EGR ( exhaust gas reticulation or recirculation ) When the EGR opens it is exhaust heat temp opposed to normal intake temp. This comes with a gooey sticky residue which attaches to the walls of the plenum intake. Now when the EGR's were blanked off did they wash out the air intake plenum, if not then that sticky tar like substance in bit by bit blown into the engine and combusts with the diesel. Most cases it is harmless and does cause smoking and in some acute cases it can fowl up injector nozzles or even damage the turbine wheel in the turbo.
    I did it way back to my Disco 3 MY08 and it did take some time for that smoke to go away, I also bombed my car with a good quality injector cleaner to speed it up to stop smoking that is.
    Hi Peter

    we both know that injector cleaner treats the symptoms but not the cause, which is build up up of carbon deposits around injector tips, ring grooves, piston crowns etc.

    There is a (very hotly debated but effective ) cost effective solution to prevent this carbon build up

    And yes you are quite correct, that cleaning out of the plenum chamber is a must. On the D3 most gunk is accumulated in the plastic y-piece, which is easily removed but a bitch to clean.
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2015/10/21 at 07:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gert Buitendag View Post
    Hi George,

    It doesn't sound very good!! . I will arrange to get the injectors tested ASAP.

    Many thanks and regards

    G
    Hi Gert

    take it to Gateway OC, they got a branch now in Cape Town as well.
    George Bosch
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    Good morning George and Landy Works,

    Many thanks for the advice. I must say that I'm in two minds. Take the fact into account that I did the modification three weeks ago and the vehicle didn't done more than 150 km driving only in traffic. Shall I wait so that the gum can clear itself or shall I rather go ahead and get the injectors tested at a cost of approximately R300 per injector x 6 plus the associated labour cost for the removal and re installation.

    The question to me is all about the risk. Do you spend some money now to prevent a possible engine failure

    I will searching "the cost effective solution to prevent this carbon build up" as mentioned by George. Hopefully this will assist in making an informative decision.

    Take care and regards.

    Gert

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gert Buitendag View Post
    Good morning George and Landy Works,

    Many thanks for the advice. I must say that I'm in two minds. Take the fact into account that I did the modification three weeks ago and the vehicle didn't done more than 150 km driving only in traffic. Shall I wait so that the gum can clear itself or shall I rather go ahead and get the injectors tested at a cost of approximately R300 per injector x 6 plus the associated labour cost for the removal and re installation.

    The question to me is all about the risk. Do you spend some money now to prevent a possible engine failure

    I will searching "the cost effective solution to prevent this carbon build up" as mentioned by George. Hopefully this will assist in making an informative decision.

    Take care and regards.

    Gert
    Hi Gert,

    I can tell you my experience, maybe it will help.

    I have a 2007 TDV6 SE with 310 000km. I removed the CAT (only, left the EGR), and it immediately started smoking. That was 3000km and a couple of months ago. It still smoked, and was just getting worse. I took it to Elrico in Stikland (search on the forum), and he replaced an injector (with a new one, not recon), no more smoke, and much smoother. I am still trying to find out how old the existing injectors are, but if they are still the originals (quite possible), I am also going to replace the rest of them with new VDO Siemens parts. About R5.5k each I think from the UK.

    So, my experience is that the removal of the CAT didn't cause the smoke, it just allowed it to be seen.....I suppose previously it was being burnt up in the CAT. As in your case, mine was fine on the open road, not much smoke, smooth and lots of power, but not great at idle.

    I can't speak at all for the EGR myself as I don't know anything about it, but I would make sure to get 100% educated before I did anything with it.

    I can also really recommend getting the IIDTool BT. Its about R7.7k, I got mine from island 4x4 in the UK (ordered on the net, easy). It allows you to do a couple of things like enable 4x4 info screen and nav on the go, but also gives you all the error codes and live values as well (like fuel pressure and injector balance values, which are a clue to injector problems). Note though that ideally it needs an iPhone or iPad to work properly, I don't think there is an Android version yet. It links to the device over bluetooth and you use the phone or iPad screen to get info and drive it. Great.

    I am still a bit confused about exactly how the injector balance values are used, as its not straightforward e.g. the low one is the faulty one. After the new injector, I still have plenty of low balance values. But Elrico got it right and its now sorted.

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    SA4x4 November 2015 issue page 92 has a feature on EGR in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoneout View Post
    I can also really recommend getting the IIDTool BT. Its about R7.7k, I got mine from island 4x4 in the UK (ordered on the net, easy).
    I am still a bit confused about exactly how the injector balance values are used, as its not straightforward e.g. the low one is the faulty one. After the new injector, I still have plenty of low balance values. But Elrico got it right and its now sorted.
    the iCarsoft from Electromann is worth every cent - approx R1600
    it does most of what a R8000 can do
    values of under 1 is deemed to be an injector on its way out
    1.25 is normally a happy injector

    Land Rovers never die, they simply become organ donors!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Landyluvver View Post
    the iCarsoft from Electromann is worth every cent - approx R1600
    it does most of what a R8000 can do
    values of under 1 is deemed to be an injector on its way out
    1.25 is normally a happy injector
    Thanks, that makes sense.

    But sometimes the good injectors back off to compensate for the bad ones. Apparently the ECU can actually measure the contribution to crank speed by each injector (probably by measuring instantaneous acceleration I would think), and it tunes them. Very clever I thought!

    But I am pretty sure that as you say my low value injectors are also on the way out (have at least three sub 1000's). I have a feeling that they are still the originals: and have now done 310 000km. I will be happy to buy new ones if they will be with me for the next 300 000.

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    Hi Gert

    your main worry is WHITE smoke at idle, ie. unburnt diesel (overfuelling!!!). This will kill your engine if not attended to.

    Injector values bordering on 0.45 to 0.55 are emergency signs. I.e. immediate action needs to be taken.

    Black smoke under acceleration can be put down to various factors:

    1. Old fuel filter (especially black smoke at WOT position)

    2. Excessive carbon (solid particle) build up in engine and also in the exhaust system

    3. Blocked air filter

    4. Blocked MAP sensor (full of goo from the EGR's)

    5. Dirty MAF (incorrect air mass metering)

    etc.
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2015/10/21 at 05:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gert Buitendag View Post
    After reading and the recommendations, I decided to take the big step by removing the CAT and blank of the EGR on my Disco 3 a 2008 model with 151 000 km on the clock. I have serious doubts weather this was the correct thing to do.

    Since the removal of the CAT and blanking off the EGR have resulted in large amounts of white smoke been produced when idling i.e. in slow moving traffic and or stationed. Once on the open road it seems fine. It also seems that there is a misfire on start-up and the engine is not running smoothly.

    I have contacted the agents to arrange for a diagnostic test and they informed me that there is no sense in doing the test due to the blanking off of the EGR as the diagnostic test will give false readings.

    Any ideas as what could be wrong & what would you suggest as a way forward?
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post
    Hi Zoneout

    your main worry is WHITE smoke at idle, ie. unburnt diesel (overfuelling!!!). This will kill your engine if not attended to.

    Injector values bordering on 0.45 to 0.55 are emergency signs. I.e. immediate action needs to be taken.

    Black smoke under acceleration can be put down to various factors:

    1. Old fuel filter (especially black smoke at WOT position)

    2. Excessive carbon (solid particle) build up in engine and also in the exhaust system

    3. Blocked air filter

    4. Blocked MAP sensor (full of goo from the EGR's)

    5. Dirty MAF (incorrect air mass metering)

    etc.
    Thanks George! Don't want to hijack Gert's post. Its the one above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoneout View Post
    and



    Thanks George! Don't want to hijack Gert's post. Its the one above.
    Corrected, thanks for pointing out!
    George Bosch
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    Hi All

    is there maybe someone in the Stellenbosch/Somerset Wes/ Strand area with a Hawkeye opened for D3 (not VIN specific) who can assist Gert to read out the injector values as a 1st step?
    George Bosch
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    Electromann have introduced the new upgraded diagnostics for R2500
    has a lot more features than the 930 model
    http://www.electromannsa.co.za/shop/...ver-and-jaguar

    Land Rovers never die, they simply become organ donors!

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    Hi Albert

    that LR II looks quite impressive for the price. I had a look through the manual.

    Would actually have to see it in operation querying some specific data from various components to make an informed decision

    I use the Hawkeye, but at twice the price of the LR II I might have reconsidered had I been in a buying situation today.
    George Bosch
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    i am definately buying one to upgrade from the baby icarsoft
    it has served me well but not quite powerful enough to cover all requirements

    Land Rovers never die, they simply become organ donors!

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    Greetings to All,
    Just to keep you posted. I have taken the D3 to Helderberg Care & Diagnostics who have also done the remapping around a year ago. What a remarkable change in the performance of the vehicle.
    Their first observation is that it could be injector related and would do the required diagnoses. I have also informed them of the removal of the cat and blanking of the EGR.
    With regards to;
    1. Old fuel filter (especially black smoke at WOT position). This has been replaced approximately 2000km ago.

    2. Excessive carbon (solid particle) build up in engine and also in the exhaust system. Noted as a possible cause.

    3. Blocked air filter. This has also been replaced approximately 2000km ago.

    4. Blocked MAP sensor (full of goo from the EGR's) Noted as a possible cause

    5. Dirty MAF (incorrect air mass metering) Noted as a possible cause

    Once again many thanks and regards
    G

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    Thank you Gert

    keep us posted!
    George Bosch
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