My Story - TDV6 PSA/DT17 Lion Motor





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    Default My Story - TDV6 PSA/DT17 Lion Motor

    This is my story.
    As per my title this my own independent research, observations and basic common knowledge.
    There has been no communications with JLR, Ford, Peugeot Citroen or relevant component manufacturers. The absolute truth of this matter remains behind closed doors of the above organisations which is their propriety right to do so.

    This post is WITHOUT PREJUDICE.

    Firstly refresh our memories with the spec sheet.

    Ford AJD-V6/PSA DT17

    From Wikipedia, thefree encyclopedia


    This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (January 2013)




    Lion Diesel Engine Family


    Overview

    Manufacturer
    Ford of Europe
    Production
    2004Ėpresent

    Combustion chamber

    Configuration
    DOHCDiesel

    The Lion enginefamily was developed and manufactured at Ford's Dagenham Diesel Centre for usein PSA Peugeot CitroŽn vehicles(as DT17 as part ofjoint venture begun in 1999), JaguarCars (asthe AJD-V6), and Land Rovervehicles. The engines share the same bore/stroke ratio, with the V6 displacing2.7L and the V8 displacing 3.6L. The V6 was launched in 2004and as of 2011 also serves in Ford Australia's Territory SUV; the V8 in 2006.The V6 engine meets the Euro IV emissions standards. A 3.0L was added in 2009and is based on the 2.7L.


    Contents



    [hide]



    Common Construction[edit]
    The enginefamily utilises twin overhead camshafts and multi-valves, single ortwin turbochargers with an air-to-air intercooler, andinnovative compactedgraphite iron (CGI)block construction that leads to a low weight of 202 kg dry. Fuel supplyis high-pressure common raildirect injection.
    Lion V6[edit]

    AJD-V6 engine in a 2006 Jaguar XJ
    To improve theengineís low-speed torque range for off-roading and towing applications, LandRover installed a large capacity single-turbocharger, rather than use thetwin-turbo design; in addition the engine is fitted with a large engine drivencooling fan to support low speed, high load driving as may be encountered indesert conditions. Furthermore, the Land Rover variant of the Lion V6 includesa deeper, high capacity sump with improved baffles to maintain oil pressure atoff-roading extreme angles and multi-layered seals to keep dust, mud and waterat bay and different transmission bell housing bolt pattern. The Lion V6 Ėconstructed from compactedgraphite iron[1] Ė is amember of the Ford Duratorq family and is produced at Fordís Dagenham engineplant; 35,000 engines were produced from April to December 2004.
    The 3.0-litredesign, known as the Gen III, superseded the 2.7-litre, and uses parallel sequentialturbochargers and an uprated commonrail injection system incorporating fuelinjectors with piezo crystals fitted nearer to the tip to reduce engine noiseand a metering mode to reduce oversupplying fuel, decreasing fuel consumptionand unused fuel temperature over the 2.7-litre model. The parallel sequentialturbocharger system utilizes the smaller of the two turbos when the engine isrunning at low revolutions; once the engine has reached 2,800 rpm, thelarger turbocharger is used to pressurize the intake.
    Jaguar testedfitting the engine to its XK model butdidnít carry the project over to production.
    The 3.0-litrevariants used by Land Rover feature the 2.7-litreís off-roading adaptationsplus calibration of the engineís electronics to allow the use of low-qualityfuels.
    2.7D/TDV6/HDi [edit]
    Engine configuration & engine displacement
    60-degree V6engine, single- and twin-turbo diesel, 2,720 cc (166 cu in), bore x stroke81.0 mm ◊ 88.0 mm (3.19 in ◊ 3.46 in),compression ratio 17.3:1
    Cylinder block & crankcase
    Compactedgraphite iron cross bolted block
    Cylinder heads & valve train
    High strengthaluminium, DOHC with four valves per cylinder
    Aspiration
    Singleturbocharger or twin-turbochargers with air-to-air intercooler, electronicallyactuated variable geometry with transient over-boost capability, portdeactivation system
    Fuel system & engine management
    SiemensCommonrail (CR) direct diesel injection, maximum injection pressure of 1,650bars (23,900 psi), piezo injectors
    DIN-rated motive power & torque outputs
    140 kW(190 hp), 440 N∑m (320 lbf∑ft) Ė LandRover Discovery 3, RangeRover Sport, Ford Territory
    147 kW(197 hp), 440 N∑m (320 lbf∑ft) Ė Peugeot407, Peugeot607
    152 kW(204 hp), 435 N∑m (321 lbf∑ft)) Ė CitroŽn C5, CitroŽnC6, JaguarS-Type, JaguarXF, JaguarXJ
    References
    ďFord, PSAAnnounce New V6 DieselĒ Auto Report, 10 June 2003
    3.0D/TDV6/SDV6/HDi[edit]
    Engine configuration & engine displacement
    60-degree V6engine, twin-turbo diesel, 2,993 cc (183 cu in), bore x stroke 84.0 mm◊ 90.0 mm (3.31 in ◊ 3.54 in), compression ratio16.4:1
    Cylinder block& crankcase
    Compactedgraphite iron cross bolted block
    Cylinder heads& valvetrain
    High strengthaluminium, DOHC with 4 valves per cylinder
    Aspiration
    Twin-turbochargerswith air-to-air intercooler, electronically actuated variable geometry withtransient over-boost capability, port deactivation system
    Fuel system& engine management
    SiemensCommonrail (CR) direct diesel injection, maximum injection pressure of 2,000bars (29,000 psi), piezo injectors
    DIN-rated motive power & torque outputs
    177 kW(237 hp), 450 N∑m (330 lbf∑ft) Ė CitroŽnC5, CitroŽnC6, Peugeot407, Peugeot407 Coupť
    177 kW(237 hp), 500 N∑m (370 lbf∑ft) Ė Jaguar XF, LandRover Discovery 4,Range Rover Sport
    187 kW(251 hp), 600 N∑m (440 lbf∑ft) Ė Land Rover Discovery 4, RangeRover Sport
    202 kW(271 hp), 600 N∑m (440 lbf∑ft) Ė Jaguar XF, JaguarXJ, Range Rover
    Lion V8[edit]
    See also Ford 4.4 TurboDiesel
    Built at FordísDagenham engine plant in Essex, the 3.6-litre V8 twin-turbo diesel engine beganproduction in April 2006.
    Much speculationin the United States has focused on this engine as a possible Diesel entrant inthe F-150 pickup truck and Expedition SUV.[2] It wasannounced that the new F150 engine will be based on this engine and enlarged to4.4L. The Cleveland Engine plantrecently began small-scale production of the exotic compactedgraphite iron (CGI)used in the block's construction, leading many to expect production of theengine there.
    3.6 TDV8[edit]
    Engine configuration & engine displacement
    90-degree V8engine, twin-turbo diesel, 3,630 cc (222 cu in), bore x stroke 81.0 mm◊ 88.0 mm (3.19 in ◊ 3.46 in), compression ratio17.3:1
    Cylinder block& crankcase
    Compactedgraphite iron cross bolted block
    Cylinder heads& valvetrain
    High strengthaluminium, DOHC with 4 valves per cylinder
    Aspiration
    Twin-turbochargerswith air-to-air intercooler, electronically actuated variable geometry withtransient over-boost capability, port deactivation system
    Fuel system& engine management
    Siemens Commonrail (CR) direct diesel injection, maximum injection pressure of 1,650 bars(23,900 psi), piezo injectors
    DIN-rated motive power & torque outputs
    200 kW(270 hp), 640 N∑m (470 lbf∑ft) Ė Range Rover, Range RoverSport

    I have just one concern it was mentioned to me that the LION motor was also manufactured by Peugeot Citroen and Ford at the Dagenham plant assembled it.
    This is contradictory to the above report from Wikipedia and I have no way of verifying it.

    When Ford bought out Land Rover through the Premium Automotive Group (PAG) they had to launch new models as quick as possible. The current models were way long in the tooth like the L322 Big Body, Disco 2 face lift,Freelander 1 face lift and the Defender. PAG who's last acquisition was Land Rover which was just in time preventing BMW selling the brand to Shanghai Motor Corporation which would have been the demise of our beloved icon.

    So the cross pollination of petrol motors in the group was easy using Jaguar,Ford and Volvo with bear minimum mods to be made like the sump extension (scavenging sump) standard on all Land Rovers ever produced. The big problem was the diesel alternative. Prior to the BMW take over there was a TD6 145kw motor ready for production, it was the follow on to the Famous STORM (TD5) motor. But BMW chose to scrap both the TD4 and the TD6 because they had both of those sizes already in production.

    This left Land Rover and Ford the ardent task of having to find a suitable motor for the forth coming production of the L319 Disco 3 and later on the RRS which pre-launch name was Range Stormer. They came across the PSA (LION) Peugeot Citroen designed, which ticked all the boxes with the 2.7 TDV6 and 3.6 TDV8 which was later introduced in the RRS.

    First the scenario and then the crux. The decision was made and now it was negotiations take place. Firstly the price and volume and in order to get the keenest price you have to forecast volumes. Land Rover estimated and forecasted X, Ford Y and Jaguar Z for the group. Now Peugeot forecasted their estimation and Citroen likewise. So now we have a total volume of XYZ plus others which could easily be a 100 000 motors more or less.

    Letís assume that Peugeot did in fact manufacture all the components and Ford, in their engine plant did the assembly for the PAG. So that kind of vast volumes and where time means money all of the components had to be out sourced to various manufacturing engineering companies, for example the cam shafts would be manufactured by as many as a dozen different companies likewise the crankshafts, pistons, valves etc. This is common practice through the automotive manufacturing industry. All the necessary specs would be given to the various production partners including the CNC or equivalent programs which are all tried and tested.


    The Crux was there was a batch of crank shafts from particular engineering concerns that were incorrectly tensiled or case hardened or hard chromed or even nitrided. Not to say that they weren't done at all but just to the incorrect specifications. Now when all the components come together for assembly there is no ways you could tell the difference that this was the case.Production went on and delivery took place, Land Rover successfully launched the models using the 2.7 TDV6 and went on to win many worldwide accolades being first in all the major categories. Like wise Jaguar introduce this motor to their X-type line up followed by Ford in the Australian theatre with the Territory.

    2005 post launch Land Rover Discovery 3 picked up a whole lot of more honors and I can remember reading an independent article stating that the Disco 3 range had the highest MTBF rate ahead of all previous models. Mean time before failurerate to simplify.

    Whilst the vehicles were under the 3 year motor plan very little information on premature bearing failure were known, it was only out of plan cars that had failed was when we the Indy's became fully aware of it likewise the forum and a small percentage of the public.

    Letís get back to the crux. Because there was a batch of crank shafts incorrectly tensiled,I reiterate a BATCH which means clearly not the whole production.
    So what happens is that the journal wears prematurely causing the crush fit bearing to go out of tolerance, this in turn renders the bearing to be loose on the journal hence rotating and blocking the oil gallery subsequently oil starvation occurs and culminating in bearing seizure on the journal.The term used for the crank shaft breaking is torque twist. Example a bearing seized on the journal is rock solid and then the down force the next piston combustion is so great that something has to give and then the crankshaft breaks at the weakest point being the lobe. Herewith examples taken recently courtesy of CME.

    Now you will not the stepped surface on the journals, as it was the journals that were wearing down and nothing else.


    This now dispels all myths, rumours and hazardous guessing that took place over the last four years.
    No, the TDV6 failure was not caused by inadequate bearings.
    No, the crank shaft did not break because of the harmonic damper multi vee pulley.
    No, Oil starvation was not caused by an inferior or substandard oil pump.
    No, long service intervals as prescribed by JLR was the cause.
    No, the miracle cure of PTFE did not do the job it was prescribed to do, which was a pity as this is a classic example of two soft metals rubbing together.
    This system sucks I have tried to post this 4 times and I am getting issues,
    To be continued on next post..........
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    Default My Story continued

    Continued..........


    All of post #1 is based on data collected over the last year from all different sources of media on the internet and long discussions with people I feel are in the know, compiling everything together then observing the obvious. The part about the crank shaft incorrectly or under specification in the hardening process is true and came from a very reliable source. but I must also stress or bring to the attention of is that the engineering co manufacturing the components are not necessarily responsible for the hardening process as that could of have also been outsourced to a plant specializing in the hardening process.

    The quantities are unknown neither is the time and date stamp because this problem happened from MY05 right up to MY09 and across the board with the different manufacturers models.

    I must respond to a post from another thread where the subject was brought up about all the people who had paid out of their own pockets for new engines prior to the UK program becoming known. Well I must in JLR's defence say that everybody who was in this situation had every opportunity to make representation either through a dealer or directly to customer care.

    Then there was the world wide TOPIx report released in the beginning of last year which was first posted on the UK forum and the cut and pasted onto our forum, that helped alot of people with their plight, some were even customers of mine. Then before that I know of a quite a few people successfully had their motors replaced in 2012 and 2013. One that clearly comes to mind was a Disco 3 TDV6 e, UK purchased and used by a Zambian banana farmer who's crank broke, UK warranty was only one year or 60 thousand miles. He contacted me and I told to make representation directly to JLR South Africa which he did, wrote a letter to the then CEO JLR MEA and within two days got a response telling him to deliver his car to a South African dealer and his motor was replace free of charge.

    Another nice story is I was contacted by a person who had a similar plight in Nelspruit and the dealership repaired his motor at his cost. He contacted me via the forum and asked if I could help, all I could do is direct him to JLR customer care and technical department. Three weeks later he called me to say that he had got a refund from JLR amounting to R115k. That was also a couple of years ago.
    So to answer the question of the poster and others who also queried it is simple there has always been a good will of one type or another. I cringe with anger when I get told by my learned friend that he has first hand knowledge of one of the largest Indy's in Gauteng that has replaced over 200 motors over the last three years, My reply was how many of those 200 qualified for the good will program, at the very least 80%.

    Then again alot of catastrophic engine failure have not been caused by faulty cranks, what has happened alot is overheating in the worst way by simply driving the car to destruction, alot of acute injector failures causing pistons to melt down and subsequent bore washing and the diesel dilutes the oil. A big contribution to engine failure.

    I still firmly believe there is at least 90% of TDV6 motors produced worldwide still running to day. My theory is if you have passed the 7 year itch and or over 240k kilos you have an excellent chance of never experiencing an engine failure, providing you continue with maintenance.


    What is this trite demanding a recall on all TDV6 2.7 when that very same motor in a slightly different format is used in the very successful Disco 4, how can there be a design fault.

    Once again I remind you that everything posted here is based on my own opinion, my own experience and my own research. E&OE
    Last edited by Dirk; 2015/09/10 at 03:53 PM.

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    Peter an exceptionally well researched article that seems to button down the crank issues in a logical, concise and direct way.

    Brilliant!

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    I enjoy it thus far. Plenty of facts. AND immediately climbed in with the axe to chop out some dead wood.

    However not all owners know about TOPIX and the fact that they could go to a dealer (as effectively they were out of warranty)

    Peter please correlate these two statements from you

    Post 1: " The Crux was there was a batch of crank shafts from particular engineering concerns that were incorrectly tensiled or case hardened or hard chromed or even nitrided.c

    Post 2: " because this problem happened from MY05 right up to MY09 and across the board with the different manufacturers models."

    How can a btach run from 05 to 09?

    Edit: Further to the above do we assume then that there are no issues with the oil pump; oil sleeves; bearing construction; etc and that the crank is the culprit?
    Last edited by JeMoi; 2015/09/10 at 07:59 AM.

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    Thanks Peter, it's high time someone with REAL experience puts REAL facts on the table and quiet down most of the complainers 90% of whom, as I saw yesterday, are not even Land Rover owners, let alone TDV6 owners.


    Your post, sir, is refreshing, informative and a big move to get this negativity surrounding the TDV6 motor put on the back shelf. Well done.
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    Thanks Peter

    One other difference to consider is the bigger cooling fan on Land Rover applications. Could this perhaps be a contributor to catastrophe in terms of harmonics once the system starts to fail?

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    Hi Peter

    thanks for your report. It makes for interesting reading and puts on paper the effort you have put into this and (some) of what we discussed at various times over the past three years.

    For those readers less technically inclined, I think the word batch could be confusing, as it could imply that those cranks would have come off the same production line and gone through the same hardening facility/process as the rest of all the cranks.

    I first had a hunch to look into the direction of incorrect hardening when the first occurrencies popped up with broken cranks, but the bearings intact.

    We are looking here actually at two possible scenarios.

    1. The insufficient differential in rockwell grade between journal and bearing (of those cranks affected)

    2. The possibility of a crank snapping because of incorrect hardening process of the crank (of those cranks affected).

    And yes you were quite correct to note, that "the muti" would not have worked in this case. It would have drawn out the inevitable, but it would not have been able to prevent it. But for the rest of the motors out there it WILL give much needed protection.

    Andrť also mentioned to me that with the later crank, fitted in production from Vin 9A510122 there were less occurencies of breakage. So they must have beefed up the crank in the crucial places.

    The only way to distinguish between the 2 cranks is the 16mm thread for the front sprocket bolt (old crank had 14mm thread).

    NB: These are my personal views and are stated without prejudice.

    Congratulations on your article Peter, well done!
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2015/09/10 at 07:07 AM.
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    Thanks Peter very interesting post. So the Monday car does exist however LRSA will assist under the guidelines. This is good news for TDV6 owners.
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    Thanks Peter

    A refreshing post where there is no mention to prove how good or clever or how correct you are/were or even to promote a product that clearly doesnt help as originally claimed!
    Last edited by BruceT; 2015/09/11 at 02:37 PM.
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    I am trying to understand this part. "So what happens is that the journal wears prematurely causing the crush fit bearing to go out of tolerance, this in turn renders the bearing to be loose on the journal hence rotating and blocking the oil gallery subsequently oil starvation occurs and culminating in bearing seizure on the journal"

    I can undertsand that a "soft" journal will wear quicker. However, if it goes out of tolerance and starts "hitting" the bearing, the white metal can wear out perhaps. The fit of the bearing in the caps however is determined by the dimensions and fit of the outer steel shell in the bearing caps. So turning of the shell will not happen due to white metal wear IMHO.
    Last edited by Francois Theron; 2015/09/10 at 08:03 AM.
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    They are linked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post

    And yes you were quite correct to note, that "the muti" would not have worked in this case. It would have drawn out the inevitable, but it would not have been able to prevent it. But for the rest of the motors out there it WILL give much needed protection.

    !
    So at very best your product helped draw out the inevitable, until outside of the Land Rover good will program? But then again it probably doesn't work, either way not ideal.
    Last edited by Byron; 2015/09/10 at 08:37 AM.
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    Please please please can we not give PTFE and Herr Bosch the stage in this thread.

    Thanks, Peter. I'm busy considering a Disco at the moment (albeit a D4) and this explanation sets my mind at rest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LandyAndy View Post
    Please please please can we not give PTFE and Herr Bosch the stage in this thread.

    Thanks, Peter. I'm busy considering a Disco at the moment (albeit a D4) and this explanation sets my mind at rest.
    Agreed. Well done Peter on YOUR research.
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    A fantastic post, balanced and well researched. Great work and thank you for your efforts Peter.
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    Peter thank you for this interesting article!

    Do us D4 owners need to worry? What has been improved on the D4 motors?
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    Great post Peter thanks and we'll done.

    Would I be correct in assuming that the crank wear (initially at least) occured at start up? Also once the crank has started to wear the oil pressure of the journal could be compromised and wear would accelerate? If that is the case I think I can see why you made such a public stand against poly pfe (not trying to start any arguments).

    For those owners interested in a preventative solution (read affordable and cost effective in relation to the retail value of the vehicle) would it be worth considering having the crank and bearings replaced? Has the issue really been addressed or is it too early to tell?

    Thanks Hanny
    Last edited by Hanny; 2015/09/10 at 09:32 AM.

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    I have found reports of forged cranks breaking (not TDV6 related), and metallurgical tests showed the cracks to be evident even before surface induction hardening was applied.

    These initial cracks then grew as fatigue cracks until breaking.

    One way of picking it up is the varying degrees of surface hardness as the induction hardening current was inhibited by the underlying cracks/voids.

    Its more common than just TDV6's...........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Theron View Post
    I am trying to understand this part. "So what happens is that the journal wears prematurely causing the crush fit bearing to go out of tolerance, this in turn renders the bearing to be loose on the journal hence rotating and blocking the oil gallery subsequently oil starvation occurs and culminating in bearing seizure on the journal"

    I can undertsand that a "soft" journal will wear quicker. However, if it goes out of tolerance and starts "hitting" the bearing, the white metal can wear out perhaps. The fit of the bearing in the caps however is determined by the dimensions and fit of the outer steel shell in the bearing caps. So turning of the shell will not happen due to white metal wear IMHO.
    I am with Francois on this, the bearing is crushed between the bearing caps, not onto the journal. The friction between the bearing cap and bearing shell is what keeps the bearing in place.

    More likely the greater tolerance between the journal and bearing due to journal wear from cold starting allows the oil film between the bearing and journal to collapse, allowing for metal to metal contact which in turns leads to seizure. Once the two metals have basically "welded" together under the seizure conditions the rotating force exerted by the spinning crank will force the bearing to turn.

    Either way, one can with some confidence, logically derived from the evidence presented, pin-point the culprit to be a soft journal. Well done to all involved in solving the mystery.

    If I may ask a question. Is it not possible for Land Rover to pinpoint the manufacturer of the defective cranks? Surely the crankshafts were at the very least batch numbered before being installed in the engines? And if this is the case then at least it would be possible to isolate possible bad engines, not so?
    2019 Mahindra S6 Pik Up S/C 4x4
    2007 Mercedes Benz ML500 5.5
    1968 VW Beetle 2276

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    Faniedup are you talking across the board I.e. every vehicle manufacturer?

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