3D printing Rhino horn: A way to reduce rhino poaching or stimulate demand?





Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 30
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Age
    26
    Posts
    54

    Post 3D printing Rhino horn: A way to reduce rhino poaching or stimulate demand?

    Hi guys,

    Came across a few interesting articles the other day about a newly formed company that is experimenting with 3D printing Rhino horn. I would like to know what your opinions on this? Below is the link to the news articles:




  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Cape Town
    Age
    35
    Posts
    5,677

    Default

    Well we all know LOUIS VUITTON went out of business because handbag ripoffs were so easy and cheap to get hold of.

    Oh no wait.

    Unfortunately I think the rhino is the crucial part rather than the product itself. Selling it as an alternative in my mind will not work, even as a 'better' alternative because it contains no 'contaminants'.

    If it was impossible to detect, no tests at all could tell them apart there may be a way- but I think they will rather try to market as an alternative and be forced to label it as such to avoid trade bans but I think there will always be a way to detect a fake through isotopes or something (are they going to synthesize the whole rhino genome and add in variation?) and I think people will still want the real deal.

    I don't think it will work and it may drive up prices if people want authentic stuff and you can detect a fake.

    But I must think about it some more.
    2001 Mitsubishi Colt 2.4i Trailbuster
    Ironman Suspension
    40mm Body lift
    31x10.5x15 Cooper STTs
    

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Gordon's Bay
    Age
    49
    Posts
    28,881

    Default

    It would be interesting, but I'm a bit sceptical.

    first of all you have to get it into the supply chain.

    lets look at this. you are selling a rather expensive commodity to some very high powered people. you decide you will take on some 'cheap/dubious ' product and pass it off as the real thing to these people.

    Well, I'll put it to you like this. a second rate dealer in the bottom end of Cape Town will die a particularly nasty death is he passes off a bad batch of tik, never mind badly cut coke.

    CAN YOU IMAGINE what the various Eastern country's powerful personages would do to someone passing off bad rhino horn?

    Do you recall the thing recently with death bu antiaircraft round?

    WHY would anyone in the supply chain take the chance when the real deal is so easy to lay hands on?

    I can just picture some computer geek trying to pass off a 3D printed Rhino horn as the real thing to a couple of gentleman of the 'Krejir" variety.

    on the up side, at least they could have some replacement body parts pre-printed to replace the ones they have cut off...
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 2015/05/29 at 09:53 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Cape Town
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    Cannot quite see how this is any different in principle to making fake horns manually and with same or other materials?-in fact I expect you would get a more 'unique' and realistic result manually producing fakes-the printing process would leave some manner of striations in the final product-even if only at microscopic level.

    The notion of being able to pass off a fake horn as a real one does not really seem practically (or even physically) possible, and I think this is really a waste of time and effort.

    Commercial production and sale is really the only way to ever deal with it if the demand persists-or penning up all rhino and making it an executable offence to even consider killing a rhino for horn.

    If commercially produced horn is available, then wild rhino have a chance in open reserves-otherwise not.
    Last edited by Patrick L; 2015/05/29 at 10:08 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Cape Town
    Age
    35
    Posts
    5,677

    Default

    I feel there is a generic medication argument and a luxury item argument.
    2001 Mitsubishi Colt 2.4i Trailbuster
    Ironman Suspension
    40mm Body lift
    31x10.5x15 Cooper STTs
    

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Gordon's Bay
    Age
    49
    Posts
    28,881

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OwenD View Post
    I feel there is a generic medication argument and a luxury item argument.
    I imagine it's a pretty short argument that ends in the phrase 'readyaimfire' when put to the more exacting clientele....
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 2015/05/29 at 10:17 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Cape Town
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OwenD View Post
    I feel there is a generic medication argument and a luxury item argument.
    Yes-it is surely so-but I would think very few of those who acquire horn actually want it in complete form to mount as a rhino-horn-shape trophy -or not ?

    I guess most horn is ground down to powder for medication use, or worked/whittled down to shape as a trinket-? In this case a cube of the 'replacement material' would work as well as material in 'horn-shape'-it may merely be a marketing benefit then, to be able to display a fake horn-(-but at 100s of dollars per a few grams or whatever, I am sure buyers would be very careful about what they were buying) although some may well be fooled and think it is real-but then a manually produced fake could still work in this case-my post was more about looking at the difference in benefit of mechanically printed fake horns versus manually fabricated fake horns.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Age
    26
    Posts
    54

    Default

    Thanks guys. I found a slightly more in depth article explaining the concept a little bit more as well as the process (they talk about use yeast cells to produce the exact type of keratin making up a horn). Copy this link into your browser: http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-horn-poaching
    Last edited by Isuzubrad300; 2015/05/29 at 10:32 PM. Reason: For some reason my tablet only seems to be loading the popular science article, I was pretty sure that this URL was also posted?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Cape Town
    Age
    35
    Posts
    5,677

    Default

    Printing may be easier to replicate the internal structure, though I am not sure of the details of either method.
    2001 Mitsubishi Colt 2.4i Trailbuster
    Ironman Suspension
    40mm Body lift
    31x10.5x15 Cooper STTs
    

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Gordon's Bay
    Age
    49
    Posts
    28,881

    Default

    the reality is that there is no market for fake rhino horn.

    the users want real rhino horn. when there are no more real rhino horns left, none of them are going to resort to fake rhino horn. they will buy or steal every last Rhino horn dagger there is, or whatever, but they will have it, or find something else to have thats rare and expensive.

    the only way to sell fake rhino horn is to pass if off as real rhino horn.

    there are countless articles on how it's used, and even more on the psychology of the users. it's a commodity with a vertical demand curve.

    the first few guys that get caught passing off fake rhino horn as the real deal will doubtless serve as a warning to those that think to try the same thing.

    but yeah, lets give it a go, it should work about as well as banning the use of Rhino horn / Bear gall bladders / tiger bones and all the rest.....
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 2015/05/29 at 10:39 PM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Cape Town
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OwenD View Post
    Printing may be easier to replicate the internal structure, though I am not sure of the details of either method.

    Quite probably-the technology of 3d printing is refining by the day, and doing the printing on a microscopic scale will surely be possible before long.

    It would be interesting to see a microscopic image of the actual structure of genuine horn.Since it is often said to be similar to 'fingernails' in material composition, I wonder if it also has that 'extruded' sort of structure we see in our fingernails?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Age
    26
    Posts
    54

    Default

    Surely, marketing the printed horns as a 'safe' alternative, as in one that does not contain any pesticides and herbicides etc that may have worked into the horn as well as the poisons and dyes injected into the horn aimed at curbing poaching, would this then not give the 3d horn a better chance at reducing poaching incidents? This approach would probably not stop the poaching in its entirety but maybe it could give us the break we need to get on top of the problem? Also at one tenth of the price, this could also entice many users to move over to the printed horns. I do think that it should be marketed as an alternative so that there is transparency, should it go on the market. That just a few thoughts I have on the matter, but I need to give it some more thought and take the above comments into account as well.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Cape Town
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Isuzubrad300 View Post
    Thanks guys. I found a slightly more in depth article explaining the concept a little bit more as well as the process (they talk about use yeast cells to produce the exact type of keratin making up a horn). Copy this link into your browser: http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-horn-poaching

    This technology and bio-engineering does seem fairly advanced , -gaining from this article-and some of the survey research seem to point to bio-identical fake product quite probably finding some acceptance in Thailand-so, I guess it can only be a good thing, -get it out there, and hopefully it works towards reducing poaching.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Cape Town
    Age
    35
    Posts
    5,677

    Default

    There are a few good papers detailing the microstructure of horn, the most recent from march this year. Here are some pics from a 2006 paper showing some of the internal variations (under uv) and a schematic of the cell structure.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Rhino_horn_UV_large.jpg 
Views:	85 
Size:	48.1 KB 
ID:	349069

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Rhino_Fig03.jpg 
Views:	79 
Size:	89.5 KB 
ID:	349070

    edit: the long tubule idea is perhaps obsolete, but the top plane of the schematic shows what the structure looks like under magnification.
    Last edited by OwenD; 2015/05/30 at 11:33 AM.
    2001 Mitsubishi Colt 2.4i Trailbuster
    Ironman Suspension
    40mm Body lift
    31x10.5x15 Cooper STTs
    

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Cape Town
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OwenD View Post
    There are a few good papers detailing the microstructure of horn, the most recent from march this year. Here are some pics from a 2006 paper showing some of the internal variations (under uv) and a schematic of the cell structure.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Rhino_horn_UV_large.jpg 
Views:	85 
Size:	48.1 KB 
ID:	349069

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Rhino_Fig03.jpg 
Views:	79 
Size:	89.5 KB 
ID:	349070

    Interesting-thanks-quite similar to structure of flora, I think?.

    In the end any and all efforts to save the rhino populations-wild and commercial- will find support, and I hope that they all achieve their aim.
    Last edited by Patrick L; 2015/05/29 at 11:05 PM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Age
    61
    Posts
    5,347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick L View Post
    ..............................

    The notion of being able to pass off a fake horn as a real one does not really seem practically (or even physically) possible, and I think this is really a waste of time and effort.
    .....................
    Doing it as an alternative to the real thing is unfortunately not possible but there is a guy in the Kruger area that is working with the authorities. He makes a wooden mock up with a piece of buffalo horn on the tip. This fake is dropped in a couple of black bags together with a decomposing carcass and some intestines and buried for a couple of weeks.

    A deal is set up and the now rotten smelling fake is presented to the buyer who scratches the tip and refuses to do more because of the stench and with the help of the authorities the deal is rushed. In short the purchaser is apprehended before he can even discover the fake.
    Henk
    Adventure is out there go find it

    Fitment and trailer service. Agent for SnoMaster & Tentco
    Follow us on Facebook

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Cape Town
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    [QUOTE=hbannink;2797019]
    Very sneaky and smart! Hope this keeps catching the BLEEPing poachers and dealers out!
    Last edited by Patrick L; 2015/05/30 at 07:57 AM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Gordon's Bay
    Age
    49
    Posts
    28,881

    Default

    why then would you need a 3D printed Rhino horn , if a wooden horn is adequate?

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Hillcrest, Malaysia
    Age
    63
    Posts
    18,604

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hbannink View Post
    Doing it as an alternative to the real thing is unfortunately not possible but there is a guy in the Kruger area that is working with the authorities. He makes a wooden mock up with a piece of buffalo horn on the tip. This fake is dropped in a couple of black bags together with a decomposing carcass and some intestines and buried for a couple of weeks.

    A deal is set up and the now rotten smelling fake is presented to the buyer who scratches the tip and refuses to do more because of the stench and with the help of the authorities the deal is rushed. In short the purchaser is apprehended before he can even discover the fake.
    Here is where we hope buyers don't read forums.
    Cheers

    ZS5KAD
    3 V8's
    NA TwinTurbo SuperCharger
    A V6 and an inline 4

    The frogs are starting to notice that the water is getting warm but it is already too hot to do anything about it.....

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Cape Town
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,489

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Here is where we hope buyers don't read forums.
    Yes-I did send Henk a PM earlier asking him to consider this and maybe remove his post-maybe he is off line and one of the other mods can pick up on this?

    That is why I edited my response post and removed the content of the quote.

    Fluffy-how do we see if any other mods are active?

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. 1215 dead....
    By Apocalypse in forum The 4x4 Pub
    Replies: 423
    Last Post: 2015/01/29, 06:21 PM
  2. The rhino/ivory debate: Some facts
    By Tony Weaver in forum Environmental & Conservation
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 2013/07/10, 10:46 PM
  3. SA govt want to legalise rihone horn trade
    By Blue Shirt in forum Environmental & Conservation
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 2013/07/04, 08:43 PM
  4. Rhino Poaching Hotline
    By Gwily in forum Environmental & Conservation
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 2013/06/09, 10:53 PM
  5. Rhino horn - time to legalise the trade say researchers
    By Jayefe in forum Environmental & Conservation
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 2013/03/03, 09:07 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •