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Thread: D3 died

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post
    Hi Defender110v8

    A torque converter consists (basically) of three main parts:

    1. An impeller (coupled to the flex plate of the ring gear (flywheel in manual cars)

    2. A stator (a series of deflective blades that provide the torque amplification at low rpm

    3. A turbine wheel that drives the input shaft of the transmission.

    See this video it explains it rather well

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhwYIs6Lu3M

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6c4JaCIkPw
    Thanks but I am familiar with torque converter operation . You are igoring the lock up clutch which is the problem with the zf boxes in a disco 3 . If you have a look at when the lock up clutch operates you will see that it matches what forum members have reported when their engines popped . Nobody has popped an engine at idle and all the cases I can find where at highway speed ie solenoid locked up but low rpm .

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defender110V8 View Post
    Thanks but I am familiar with torque converter operation . You are igoring the lock up clutch which is the problem with the zf boxes in a disco 3 . If you have a look at when the lock up clutch operates you will see that it matches what forum members have reported when their engines popped . Nobody has popped an engine at idle and all the cases I can find where at highway speed ie solenoid locked up but low rpm .
    Hi Defender110V8

    your arguments unfortunately are not very persuasive.

    A torque converter lock up is nothing more than a clutch. But much weaker then the clutch of a R380 manual box.

    In order to prove that you will never be able to break a crank like that, try to undo the front balancer bolt on a 300Tdi or Td5 by undoing the nut without locking the ring gear. All that will happen is that the clutch will slip.......

    please remember that the main aim of this forum is to offer forumites tangible information they can use.
    George Bosch
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  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by georgecape View Post
    Is it the one sitting DOWN THERE?
    Also some videos on Youtube about this.
    Thks to all this is an awesome discussion!!!
    Hi George

    yes the one with the white paint
    George Bosch
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  4. #244
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    Following this thread I just want to contribute some more by saying (as I have before) that the subject of crank shaft (torsional included) vibrations is somewhat complex and not so simple to understand without looking at all the contributing factors, their influences and cross-coupling with each other. Here is a paper (one of the multiple) just to illustrate some of the theory behind this topic and please read the very last paragraph before the conclusions as well as the conclusion so that we can bury any doubt about the importance of a TVD (Torsional Vibration Damper).

    Getting back now to the TDV6 engine - if the failures have now started to expose failed Crank pulley dampers - then lets accept it and do something pro-active about it by fixing it for really cheap as per the costs from George.

    (Loose remarks that this engine is rubbish etc. does not contribute to any of us....)
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  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carel Kriek View Post
    Following this thread I just want to contribute some more by saying (as I have before) that the subject of crank shaft (torsional included) vibrations is somewhat complex and not so simple to understand without looking at all the contributing factors, their influences and cross-coupling with each other. Here is a paper (one of the multiple) just to illustrate some of the theory behind this topic and please read the very last paragraph before the conclusions as well as the conclusion so that we can bury any doubt about the importance of a TVD (Torsional Vibration Damper).

    Getting back now to the TDV6 engine - if the failures have now started to expose failed Crank pulley dampers - then lets accept it and do something pro-active about it by fixing it for really cheap as per the costs from George.

    (Loose remarks that this engine is rubbish etc. does not contribute to any of us....)
    Hi Carel

    thanks for sharing that article with us. It illustrates in a very scientific way what I have been trying to get across in laymans terms.

    As I have already twice fallen victim to crank failures caused by harmonic vibration, I know how to spot trouble brewing. Having driven as much as I have, one gets given the "opportunity" of being at the receiving end of all sorts of problems.
    George Bosch
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  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carel Kriek View Post
    Following this thread I just want to contribute some more by saying (as I have before) that the subject of crank shaft (torsional included) vibrations is somewhat complex and not so simple to understand without looking at all the contributing factors, their influences and cross-coupling with each other. Here is a paper (one of the multiple) just to illustrate some of the theory behind this topic and please read the very last paragraph before the conclusions as well as the conclusion so that we can bury any doubt about the importance of a TVD (Torsional Vibration Damper).

    Getting back now to the TDV6 engine - if the failures have now started to expose failed Crank pulley dampers - then lets accept it and do something pro-active about it by fixing it for really cheap as per the costs from George.

    (Loose remarks that this engine is rubbish etc. does not contribute to any of us....)
    Carel was your dad perhaps a lecturer at the Stellenbosch Mechanical Engineering faculty in the 80s? (Gert Kriek)
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  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by saskia View Post
    Carel was your dad perhaps a lecturer at the Stellenbosch Mechanical Engineering faculty in the 80s? (Gert Kriek)
    Cobus, yes he is my dad and I had to listen to him in some classes as well! (mech design and internal combustion engines and I did my "skripsie" under him). Well, I survived!
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  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carel Kriek View Post
    Cobus, yes he is my dad and I had to listen to him in some classes as well! (mech design and internal combustion engines and I did my "skripsie" under him). Well, I survived!
    Hy was/is 'n legende daar, ek kan onthou hoe jy as jong eerstejaar na die man oopmond geluister het.

    Ok back to topic.
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  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by saskia View Post
    Hy was/is 'n legende daar, ek kan onthou hoe jy as jong eerstejaar na die man oopmond geluister het.

    Ok back to topic.
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  10. #250
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    So we have had 5 pages of very logical engineering debate, and great input all around. The real question is from my research in Durban from 2 of the 3 stealers and Indies that we are talking of less than 30 vehicles from 2004 -2015 all in their view had the wrong oil or not been maintained. What would that be as a percentage of all vehicles sold I wonder.

    The truth of the matter is that when this catastrophic failure hits, then it hits the headlines on this and other forums. Can ANYONE on this forum put their hand on heart and qualify if this is the human "fear" of a 100+k bill and normal statistics or a genuine issue and qualify the failure rate.

    Without doubt ensuring a full service history and knowing full synthetic oil of the right viscosity (so the bearings have minimum boundary lubrication time)has been used, along with checking the damper pulley will reduce you becoming a statistic but not avoid it.

  11. #251
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    I basically agree Longclose, BUT absolute history is still not a guarantee.
    My vehicle had impeccable history. Only touched by 1 LR dealer in its life till 168K, this included service, maintenance, tyre fitments, wheel alignment, cambelt, etc. No additives if not done by LR. Vehicle was driven by a mature male so I "assume" it was driven relatively responsibly, especially considering the way it was only sent to the dealers for EVERYTHING. The vehicle had very little cosmetic damage anywhere including the undercarriage.

    Servicing was done as per LR spec at 24K.

    At 171K the bearings went. I do not know which ones and I don't actually care. The dealer that sold it to me claimed against my warranty and covered the balance of the R82K invoice to replace the sub.
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    I am hesitant to report here, because I know absolutely nothing about cars. Our D3 dropped us a few times in a row and many parts were replaced. Eventually we found out that the cable connected to the battery got punctured. Once it was fixed we had NO more problems.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco-Deon View Post
    I basically agree Longclose, BUT absolute history is still not a guarantee.
    My vehicle had impeccable history. Only touched by 1 LR dealer in its life till 168K, this included service, maintenance, tyre fitments, wheel alignment, cambelt, etc. No additives if not done by LR. Vehicle was driven by a mature male so I "assume" it was driven relatively responsibly, especially considering the way it was only sent to the dealers for EVERYTHING. The vehicle had very little cosmetic damage anywhere including the undercarriage.

    Servicing was done as per LR spec at 24K.

    At 171K the bearings went. I do not know which ones and I don't actually care. The dealer that sold it to me claimed against my warranty and covered the balance of the R82K invoice to replace the sub.
    Hi Disco-deon, agreed with your post, as I stated it will reduce the risk not eliminate it, perhaps yours was the unlucky one. I guess this is my point lots of supposition but no real hard facts around actual numbers, it would be really useful to understand actual numbers of failed bearings/crankshafts in SA on the D3 TDV6 as <1.5% is what put Landrover in the top 10 in the UK see...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...?frame=2457914

    Interesting as BMW and VW/Audi do not make an appearance.. so lets get some statistics to avoid un-necessary scaremongering.. albeit not deliberate.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by longclose View Post
    Hi Disco-deon, agreed with your post, as I stated it will reduce the risk not eliminate it, perhaps yours was the unlucky one. I guess this is my point lots of supposition but no real hard facts around actual numbers, it would be really useful to understand actual numbers of failed bearings/crankshafts in SA on the D3 TDV6 as <1.5% is what put Landrover in the top 10 in the UK see...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...?frame=2457914

    Interesting as BMW and VW/Audi do not make an appearance.. so lets get some statistics to avoid un-necessary scaremongering.. albeit not deliberate.
    and as expected Honda no 1 by miles.

  15. #255
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    Hi longclose

    those unlucky ones who get hit with a run bearings engine failure are unlucky, in that even a perfect maintenance record at 24'000km intervals is no guarantee to avoid this.

    The main contributors to this turning bearing saga, is lack of (forced) lubrication during cold starts, especially if those vehicles had been standing for a while.

    The bearings we inspected all showed excessive wear marks consistent with insufficient oil pressure during start up.

    The only precaution one can take to prevent the bearings from rotating, is the treatment with Poly-TFE.

    The lowest incidences of failed bearings on D3 TDV6's come from Landyworx, where Poly-TFE has now been used in their workshop for around 4 years.

    The absence of bearing failure from cars serviced in their workshop speaks volumes.

    Landyworx has the lowest incidence of capital engine failures on TDV6's serviced by them.
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    Last edited by hgbosch; 2015/03/30 at 02:01 PM.
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  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post
    The lowest incidences of failed bearings on D3 TDV6's come from Landyworx, where Poly-TFE has now been used in their workshop for around 4 years.

    The absence of bearing failure from cars serviced in their workshop speaks volumes.

    Landyworx has the lowest incidence of capital engine failures on TDV6's serviced by them.
    Have you got figures to back up those claims?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobH View Post
    Have you got figures to back up those claims?
    Ask Peter

    that is what he told me. Also I assisted Peter in getting to the source of the problem when we thoroughly investigated this issue during 2012. The pictures above came from one of those inspections and were taken with Peter's camera..
    George Bosch
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  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post
    Ask Peter
    Nope, I'm not going to ask Peter. You made the claim, you should back it up. It's a bold claim and you've made it twice on this thread.

    No-one is denying your involvement in trying to get to the bottom of this problem and I'm sure it's greatly appreciated, but in nearly every one of your responses you punt the efficacy of your product. Turning every informative post into a cheap sales pitch detracts from the information given in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roelof B View Post
    2hz is a frequency. Ie 120 rpm. What was the amplitude of the frequency? Find the item rotating at 120 rpm at 100km/h and you will find the origin of that frequency. Could be 1/2, 1/3 or even 1/5 of the rotating part, signifying mechanical looseness. Not structural. Harmonics and resonances are not the same thing. Harmonics are 1x, 2x, 3x etc of the rotating speed. Resonances are excititions of natural frequencies.
    Harmonics subsonics...this sounds like ebonics to me

  20. #260
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    I will not try to add to the very interesting technical discussion --- thanks to all for all the info! Unfortunately, it scares me a bit to again take my D3 into Botswana or Namibia --- but in the meantime I still enjoy driving my 8 yr old D3 !
    Jan Heyneke

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