My Jeep won't start!





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  1. #1
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    Talking My Jeep won't start!

    OK there is no simple way to do this but here goes......[IMG]file:///C:%5CUsers%5CJordaaG%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cms ohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_image001.gif[/IMG] Please note I am no mechanic but no fool either, being screwed over by unscrupulous workshops is not on my to-do list........

    We (The wife) bought a 2003 Jeep Cherokee Ltd Ed 2.8 CRD 4x4 with 210000km early last year. We were quite chuffed with it as it was a very comfortable drive etc etc but not without issues.....

    Firstly there was the flat spot on pull away and "difficult" starting.....and then the fuel economy, or lack thereof rather, 16.6L/100KM town driving.

    I decided to take the car in to a Jeep specialist Workshop in Pretoria (I think just to keep the peace I will rather refrain from identifying the said Workshop as also the following three.......) just to have her checked out and for advice or a diagnosis on the starting issue. Sometimes she would start up and sometimes crank a little longer. 2 Days later said Workshop contacted me saying that the alternator clutch had seized........R7400-00 quote to boot.........I said nope will collect and do the job myself.

    Picked up the vehicle, promptly removed the alternator to test the clutch and guess what? Clutch was fine[IMG]file:///C:%5CUsers%5CJordaaG%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cms ohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_image002.gif[/IMG]. Decided well I have stripped this far let’s do the fan belt and service while I am at it, done and no problems. (By the way removing the fan and cowl simultaneously allows sufficient access to do both the fan belt and timing belt replacements, you DO NOT have to strip the whole nose of the car as YouTube says.....).

    Any case the car ran fine till about seven months later......wife phones me up and reckons the car just died while driving and won't start up again. As any good husband would do I immediately rushed of full of confidence that it was something small......... No luck I could not manage to diagnose the issue and had to have it towed to a Diesel-Electric specialist. Next day at 12 I get a call back to say that my car is fixed and that the costs were R250-00[IMG]file:///C:%5CUsers%5CJordaaG%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cms ohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_image003.gif[/IMG], cause? A "broken wire". BullSh%t!!!! The real cause was a broken connector plug on the No4 injector which had rattled loose and disconnected itself thereby having the ECM shut down the engine and not allowing a restart. This I would only discover muuuuuuuch later when the car did the exact same thing but at home luckily.

    Everything went fine for a couple of weeks then VERY difficult starting with loooong cranks. Started reading up and without much searching reckoned that the Filter/Water separator was to blame. Promptly phoned Jeep and after getting the price decided that I did not yet want to give a kidney up, not with my drinking habits anyway....... I did some searching and eventually found a RACO filter unit at PTS Filters (Michael Brink Street, Pretoria) for about half the price of the Jeep unit. The units are identical apart from the bowels which I changed the Jeep and RACO bowels around as the RACO bowel does not cater for the water sensor or fuel heater element, no problems and a perfect fit. I had no modifications to do an it went in straight no issues. Jeep fixed, wife happy and daddy in the good books (if you know what I mean.....[IMG]file:///C:%5CUsers%5CJordaaG%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cms ohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_image004.gif[/IMG]). [IMG]file:///C:%5CUsers%5CJordaaG%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cms ohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_image003.gif[/IMG]

    Couple of weeks later it just started to refuse starting in the mornings, my friendly neighbour jumpstarted a couple of times as I have ro leave at 05:30 already and missus only at about 07:00.......... Initially think OK, have to be the battery, new 622 and problem goes away.......for a few days at least. The issue keeps getting worse and worse. Eventually it breaks down again and refuses to start at all, well without help (but more about how to help later). Again I have the vehicle towed to the previously mention Diesel-Electric Specialist who the after two days tell me that they can't find the fault but it sounds like it had dropped a valve......yeah right! Anyhow I ask the foreman if he can recommend a workshop which he promptly does and we have the car towed out to them for a diagnosis. FOUR days later, a phone call to say that the do not have the required tools and would rather not work on the car.........ok fair enough. Workshop number 3........supposed Jeep Specialists (bull-crap-dust-twang-stront). This guy calls me with wait for it........... a R64000-00 (Yes sixty-four thousand rand!!!!!!!) quote saying that:

    1. The sleves are oval (New pistons, rings and sleeves)
    2. the valves had to be replaced (Re-do the whole head)
    3. waterpump,
    4. vacuum pump, turbo is shot,
    5. bieg end and main bearings,
    6. timing belt kit
    7. fanbelt kit
    8. oilpump etc etc

    I decided what the hell no way so I start phoning around and find complete recon engines for around R31000, still too high but half off right?

    Anycase I eventually decide to not take this guy up on his offer ([IMG]file:///C:%5CUsers%5CJordaaG%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cms ohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_image002.gif[/IMG]) and have it towed home to rust in peace. Please note that I had to pay the said “gentleman” about R2500-00 because he had to strip down the car to quote and blah blah blah………. No I restore old Series Landies for a hobby so I enjoy sukkeling (Or that is what my friends say) lol so eventually I start fiddling with the Jeep.

    A couple of things you must keep in mind are this:
    1. not being a mechanic and trying to sort stuff out is not easy
    2. working on a Jeep is not easy
    3. assembling something that someone else stripped, absolutely not bloody easy……

    I decided to start hunting for parts and eventually ended up buying a new head gasket kit (includes the gasket and bolts, the bolts have to be replaced after 1st use) and a timing belt kit from American SUV in Centurion, Xandra was the lady who helped me and they did so effectively and at a reasonable price compared to Jeep, was about R6800-00 for everything. After cleaning everything and measuring the “oval” sleeves (which weren’t oval by the way) I decided to start assembling the engine. A couple of things on this however is that you need a few special tools to do the timing on this motor. These involve two camshaft pins to lock them in position, a flywheel locking pin to lock the crankshaft in its place and a tool which locks the two camshaft sprockets in place so you can torque the bolts or loosen them, either way you need these tools to set the timing. As my head was removed I simply went to my local bolt and nut and used the plugs for the timing pins and bought two bolts with similar thread and about 100mm long with a smooth shaft at the one end. To make the pin part I simply cut of the hexagon head, shoved the bolt thread first into my drill, drill in the bench-vice and grinder in hand “machined” the bolts down to the correct size and length. It took some time but eventually I got it right. For the crank locking pin I simply used a 6mm allen-key and used it as the manual describes. The camshaft pulleys…….well a 12mm allen-key inserted in-between the two pulleys locks them just as good.

    Assembling the motor was easy enough following the manual direction apart from those blasted rockers. O ja I forgot I sent the head in to have the valves lapped and checked and at the same time had the valve stem seals replaced as mine were hard and leaked. I ended up putting some grease on them just to hold them in position so they don’t fall off when you place the “tappet” cover on the head. Needless to say in reality the buggers fall of and you have no way of knowing whether one fell off or not until you have assembled everything and tested. Timing on the 2.8 CRD is simple, camshaft pins in place, crankshaft pin in place and pump on its mark and voila! Done! I started the motor before closing the timing belt cover and ran it for a few seconds just to check, all well and onto the rest of the stuff like covers, pulleys alternator etc.

    Now the fun starts…….. After initial assembly the motor started fine and I attributed it to perhaps a leaky valve as No2 and 3 inlet valves had some carbon on them. But wait the old Jeep was not done yet. She started this starting nonsense again but when jumpstarting her she would start, battery perhaps? I started looking into the manual and realized that the 622 I previously installed was a little light in the ass to crank the diesel efficiently and the recommended battery was actually a 645 I think with a 70 A/H rating. Think the 622 only has about 55 or 60 A/H rating. Ok bought another battery, couldn’t find the right kind of 645 with 70 A/H rating so I went with a 657 (Although I had to cut away a section of the battery tray as the battery was about 20mm too long for the tray. No hassles with that though. Sure as hell put the battery in an poof problem gone! Yay! Yeah right!

    Couple of days and starting issue is back but even from the beginning the issue was not consistent with either temperature of conditions or even brand of diesel so I couldn’t pinpoint the issue. What and idiot I was, in hindsight…….. I started looking at the manual again and decided to test the crankshaft position sensor, camshaft position sensor and other sensors which form part of the start-up sequence sensors to check for malfunctions and test the leak-off on the injectors. My testing the sensors led me to a faulty crankshaft position sensor which when I replaced it solved a rough idling on the motor immediately. I sourced a used unit via Bid-or-Buy from a guy in Durban with no issues. By the way when the motor was stripped I tested the glow plugs, no problems and sent the injectors in for testing, no problems there either (Phew as a recon injector is R1500-00 a pot!) so I ruled out glow plugs and the injectors. Testing the leak-off was easy and within speck but I realized that the connecting rubber pipes had gone hard and might have caused the air I kept finding in the system. I was able to start the car with quickstart every time it was difficult to start and eventually realized that air in the system was the issue. Replacing the leak-off pipes cured the issue to such an extent that I thought I have won, but alas I didn’t. I kept finding air in the system and eventually decided to check all the hoses around the filter, pump and return block and discovered that the return block- pump line was also possibly sucking air which I replaced and tied down with hose-clamps. Again the car would sometimes start and sometimes not regardless of conditions. I thought at one last attempt to look at installing a lift pump to aid in getting fuel to the engine. This alleviated the issue only temporarily. I then decided to run fuel from a 5liter drum with the pump and rerouted the return line into the 5liter container. Voila! Tested the setup for about two days under different conditions and true she started every time! This led me to inspecting the main fuel lines to and from the tank. I discovered that the clip on coupling between the plastic pipe from the tank and the aluminium fuel line was letting in air past its worn internal o-ring seal. I simply cut out the connector inserted a small piece of fuel hose between the two pipes and voila perfect! She is happily running along!

    To recap I replaced the following:
    · Head gasket and bolts;
    · Timing belt kit, belt, tensioner, idlers;
    · Fan belt kit, belt, tensioner and idlers;
    · Oil and oil filter (Precaution);
    · Leak-off pipes;
    · Return block- fuel pump connecting hose; and
    · Cut out the connector.

    This all took place over a period of 7 months in which I had to buy my wife a car, R50000-00(although I have to still pay the Jeep as well) and spent about R14500-00 on parts for the Jeep. In the process I also acquired a very nice handheld OBD II scanner form a company in Roodepoort to read and reset OBD error codes (part of my diagnostics you know J)

    What have I learnt you might ask? Well for one don’t trust the workshop they are either guessing just like you or screwing you. Please don’t get me wrong there are honest workshops out there just not in my tale…… In the process I have learnt a hell of a lot of my Jeep and truly love the old girl. She has a lot of power and is a lovely drive. Parts are very expensive but which brand is not? Another thing I learnt is trust your gut instinct and look at the simple things first before taking it in and surrendering to money making opinions!

    Happy 4x4’ing and fixing those Jeeps!

  2. #2
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    Very long winded but I agree with you 100% , workshops just love a gullible customer with a fat wallet , it's like shooting fish in a barrel
    When faced with the dilemma of being right or being happy , I choose happy every time

  3. #3
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    Mr magoo

    Well done and congrats on being so patient.

    yes, those "jeep specialists" down the western side of pretoria are amusing, don't you think?
    2012 Jeep Sahara Unlimited 3.6 V6
    Percivamus

  4. #4
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    Which diesel specialist did you go to bud ?
    Jeep, there is only one.

  5. #5
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    Hey Kev not sure I should say it on the open forum........Bosch agency in PTA North. They were actually quite helpfull I suppose seeing as they could have charged me a lot of money but instead rather just for an hours labour and second time round they short-diagnosed it a bit, little bit unhappy about that though........ Guy was friendly and helpfull so I wont hold it against them
    Last edited by magoo_za; 2013/10/23 at 07:34 AM.

  6. #6
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    Great write up and i can definately relate to the lack of skills these workshops have these days!

    Sold my BMW E46 becoz 1 workshop told me the head gasket is gone after some testing with a funny looking apparatus. The guy who bought the car (I informed him of this problem when i sold it to him) has been to Zimbabwe with it about 10 times already and no problems experienced at all!!! Where's all the good mechanics gone to? The guys that diognose with their senses and knowledge rather than thumb suck and guesses?

  7. #7
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    Default OBD II Scanner details please

    Good day Magoo,

    Thank you for sharing.

    Could you please provide me with details and cost of OBD II scanner?

    Regards,

    Ludi Neethling

  8. #8
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludi Neethling View Post
    Good day Magoo,

    Thank you for sharing.

    Could you please provide me with details and cost of OBD II scanner?

    Regards,

    Ludi Neethling
    Hi Ludi

    I bought my scanner from Electroman in Roodepoort. Their webadress is http://www.electromannsa.co.za and the link to the AL301 in their online shop is http://www.vehiclediagnostics.co.za/...productId=6933

    The scanner is the AL301, tested it on the Jeep, my Renault and the wifes Hyundai. Worked on all of them, very nifty. Cost me R599-00
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by magoo_za View Post
    Hi Ludi

    I bought my scanner from Electroman in Roodepoort. Their webadress is http://www.electromannsa.co.za and the link to the AL301 in their online shop is http://www.vehiclediagnostics.co.za/...productId=6933

    The scanner is the AL301, tested it on the Jeep, my Renault and the wifes Hyundai. Worked on all of them, very nifty. Cost me R599-00
    R599 ? ? ? ?

    Kersfeesvader gaan hiervan hoor .
    2012 Jeep Sahara Unlimited 3.6 V6
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    R599 ? ? ? ?

    Kersfeesvader gaan hiervan hoor .
    s'true gaan kyk self

  11. #11
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    Thumbs up Thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by magoo_za View Post
    Hi Ludi

    I bought my scanner from Electroman in Roodepoort. Their webadress is http://www.electromannsa.co.za and the link to the AL301 in their online shop is http://www.vehiclediagnostics.co.za/...productId=6933

    The scanner is the AL301, tested it on the Jeep, my Renault and the wifes Hyundai. Worked on all of them, very nifty. Cost me R599-00
    Thank you, much appreciated.

  12. #12
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    Thanks for the write up. I work on my own car as well.

    I have had my CRD die a few times and could only start it after bleeding the diesel filter. i will check the pipes.

    thank you
    Getting the Kids to 4x4 - Priceless!

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    http://www.zasttra.com/collections/c...-327-bluetooth

    R159-00 + postage (I think it was R75), and it's at your local Postnet the next day.

    That, together with Torque on my tablet and phone for about R50, and it works perfectly.
    For going over stuff:
    2006 Jeep Commander 5.7 Hemi


    Ex:2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi

    For going around bendy bits:
    2006 Mazda RX8

    For getting dirty:
    2008 KTM 300 XC-W
    2001 Raptor 660 - slightly fiddled with

  14. #14
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    Hi All

    I must be honest I really thought my issues were done with, apparently not. it is still doing exactly the same as what it used to do.....intermittently starting. When it runs or is helped with a bit of quickstart it runs 100% but on its own sometimes and sometimes not. I have even resolved to bypassing the water separator with a plain filter for a test with supply and return lines from a jerry can, with an additional pump and without no difference......

    Does anyone have any additional advice?

    Cheers

  15. #15
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    Unhappy Air in leak of connecting pipes

    Anyone have any idea where this might come from?

    Tx

  16. #16
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    Hey Magoo...

    Well I had a problem with my 2.7 CRD... the drain plug on my Diesel filter was leaking a little air.... caused havoc!! - I replaced the o-ring on it... but still leaked!! - so out of frustration I put a bit of silicone on the drain plug.... and SORTED!! - since then I imported a new one!

    Dunno if this will help / relevant.... Haven't been able to read the whole thread yet.

  17. #17
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    Hi magoo,

    I had similar problems with just about the same history (oil filter, battery too small, etc). I got the P0340 code when doing the ignition on/off trick and decided to replace the Camshaft position sensor, but the problem returned after a few days. I then replaced the Crankshaft Position Sensor with a new original one from Jeep (for about R1,400), problem resolved. It has been going for a couple of weeks now under same/worse conditions than before, with no issues whatsoever. It runs like a brand new vehicle!

    Only Jeep and American SUV sell new sensors. At Spares for Africa you can get a second hand one, but I will not trust that. With my electronic background I believe it is because of the heat behind the exhaust turbo downpipe that this sensor gives problems when it gets old. Mine started with issues just before 180,000 kilos. Get a new one to be sure, the second hand one could be just as bad (or worse) than your current one.

  18. #18
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    Ok guys, I continued having similar problems until 2 days ago.......took it to a guy by the name of JC in Zandfontein ,Pretoria (0832763943) whom sorted my issues out in 2 hours........was an injector of which the leak-off was buggered. It causes a loss in pressure on the rail.......no starting from there.... please support JC as he lost his job with Jeep because he did privates........Cheers

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