Radical trails are a concern - Page 7





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  1. #121
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    I'd be really interested to know if most claims are from bakkies, or bakkie based SUV's getting damaged. There has just been an advert on TV for the Trailblazer. The punchline states 'go anywhere' but that's misleading to someone that thinks its a proper 4x4 & is non the wiser. Even the name 'Trailblazer' is misleading'.

    If a particular manufacturers target was to design the worst possible suspension configuration for a 4x4 vehicle, then the set-up on practically every mainsteam double cab on the SA market is a very good place to start.

    They've got leaf springs at the back & IFS at the front, with insufficient under-body protection, horrible plastic everywhere that comes off all over the place, bit by bit & pseudo transfer cases.

    So then the owners later realise this & start modifying them, sometimes to their detriment because its often way beyond its intended design parameters. So their warranties are duly cancelled by the dealers at the first opportunity they get. Guess who the owners then turn too when things get broken?

    On vehicles like Wranglers, Cruisers, Patrols & Defenders, not a red cent has to be spent on the basics because its all standard. They are less likely to break because they are built to do proper offroading from the design onset.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris83 View Post
    I dont see why TUFFSTUFF cant implement certain deductions into the premium. I have for example a tracker in my car simply because the monthly cost outweighs the discount. So why not include options like
    1. Do you have an aftermarket replacement bumper?
    2. Do you have aftermarket rocksliders?
    3. Do you have aftermarket undercarriage protection?
    4. Are you certified under driving standard XYZ?

    And depending on the answers give discounts. But then again, pure overlanders probably don't need that stuff...
    In the Baviaans we encountered severe mud - without Uys's bashplate we would have been one more stuck 4x4 for the farmer to pull out that day. As "overlanders" the protectin we fitted to our vehicle helped us that day.

    this was not a trail, or looking for some "excitement", pure overlanding and either we went through the mud or we had a 200km round trip to bypass it ....



    Spreethoogte in Namibia .... similar story.


    We prefer overlanding to "trails" any day of the week, yet our vehicle is fully equiped to handle to terrain we have encountered on our travels.


    And when overlanding you DO take more care, as it "messes" with your holiday plans when your vehicle comes back on a flatbed ....

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJ Junkie View Post
    I'd be really interested to know if most claims are from bakkies, or bakkie based SUV's getting damaged. There has just been an advert on TV for the Trailblazer. The punchline states 'go anywhere' but that's misleading to someone that thinks its a proper 4x4 & is non the wiser. Even the name 'Trailblazer' is misleading'.

    If a particular manufacturers target was to design the worst possible suspension configuration for a 4x4 vehicle, then the set-up on practically every mainsteam double cab on the SA market is a very good place to start.

    They've got leaf springs at the back & IFS at the front, with insufficient under-body protection, horrible plastic everywhere that comes off all over the place, bit by bit & pseudo transfer cases.

    So then the owners later realise this & start modifying them, sometimes to their detriment because its often way beyond its intended design parameters. So their warranties are duly cancelled by the dealers at the first opportunity they get. Guess who the owners then turn too when things get broken?

    On vehicles like Wranglers, Cruisers, Patrols & Defenders, not a red cent has to be spent on the basics because its all standard. They are less likely to break because they are built to do proper offroading from the design onset.

    Well... To be very honest...

    You can't buy a new patrol. What Nissan offer today is not the same.

    A wrangler needs bumpers and sliders to sort out its pedestrian friendky Tupperware issues. Mostly got the right stuff though.

    A PROPER cruiser is great, if under powered but an FJ or Prado doesn't fall into that category.

    Defenders - still what it says on the box. Great.

    Maybe the problem is that 4x4s are getting softer?

    The metrosexuals are taking over...

  4. #124
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    I am not sure the point of the whole argument.

    Just get a TJ mod it a bit and you won't upset Raymond unless you end up on the roof, bonus time - time for another modification.
    Last edited by gunhog; 2013/08/20 at 09:30 PM.
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  5. #125
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    @Alex....you can still get a proper Patrol in SA. See here

    A Wrangler Rubicon has sliders as stock & are not that critical on your average trail. The owners only replace their bumpers because they are posers

    The diesel 70 Cruisers may be light on power but they can still crack a trail better than most.

  6. #126
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    are the trails becoming more radical......or
    1. are drivers becoming more gung-ho ?
    I saw this in the yachting and scuba diving fraternity. In the old days (I know, I know) people did it because they loved it and it required dedication. There was no backup, and very little, if any training. Because of (or despite this) it seemed there were less accidents.

    Nowadays anybody wih a bit of cash, buys a yacht, scuba gear or 4X4, does a mickey mouse course, and is ready to sail the world, dive the Titanic, or do De Wildt on the back wheels only.

    So no, the trails are the same we always rode, but people don't understand their or their vehicles limitations.
    Last edited by elliotgr; 2013/08/20 at 10:14 PM.
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by elliotgr View Post
    .... but people don't understand their or their vehicles limitations.
    Yeah and get quite defensive if you dare mention that a double cab (or the derived SUVs) are not exactly the ideal thing on difficult trails. I'm actually surprised there has not been more of that in this thread.

    Disclaimer: this is not to say a guy in a Defender/Wrangler/Cruiser (the proper ones) won't suffer any damage a sufficiently untalented driver can accomplish many horrible things and accidents do happen (thus the insurance after all).
    Dewald

  8. #128
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    Raymond, it seems your question has been answered in broad strokes: it's probably not the trails getting worse, much more to do with driver skill/attitude.

    Good luck.
    Dewald

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    Quote Originally Posted by pblaauw View Post
    People believe their 'Steed Extreme' (not picking on it, the name just fitted) can do the same as something like this:


    Then they find out it can't
    Now why must the steed extreme be brought into this?
    We all know it can do that
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  10. #130
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    Raymond I have the perfect solution for you. Take a year off for product research. Go do all the trails around the country and you decide and post which trail s you will cover, eg. Grade 4 and up........ in your Jimmy Not covered buy Tuff Stuff Grade 3 and below in your TATA...... Covered by Tuff Stuff. I know its gonna be a tough job doing the research which vehicle can do which trail but some how i just think you have to do it to save Tuff Stuff buckazoids in the future and to stop our premiums going through the roof

    Just a though . I'm in if u need a research buddy

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunhog View Post
    I am not sure the point of the whole argument.

    Just get a TJ mod it a bit and you won't upset Raymond unless you end up on the roof, bonus time - time for another modification.
    BOET !!


    you call that a "bit" .....



    a pic of your wagon is pure motoring p0rn !!

  12. #132
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    In motorcycle insurance, most insurers that are prepared to cover motorcycles will only cover certain aspects.

    For example, training days. These are usually covered as long as they are by recognised training schools. The classes are broken down into:
    D: for novices and pillion riders
    C: Riders who have experience and want to learn the technical aspects
    B: Experienced riders who want to improve lap times
    A: Riders who are good enough to enter competition

    In almost every case, A class is excluded from cover as are open class days, these are days where the track is open to the public and you pay a fee to ride around, without instruction.
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  13. #133
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    There is also the option that Tuffstuff is signing on the wrong clients as a result of their no quible policy. Whist giving them a great reputation it may attract abusive claimers.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious? View Post
    There is also the option that Tuffstuff is signing on the wrong clients as a result of their no quible policy. Whist giving them a great reputation it may attract abusive claimers.
    The original post...

    An ever increasing number of vehicles are being damaged on trails and the question to be asked is;
    1. are the trails becoming more radical......or
    2. are drivers becoming more gung-ho ?
    The matter of "wrong clients" or "abusive claimers" was never raised, insinuated or discussed here....only a simple question being posed following the observation of a possible trend developing. TUFFSTUFF is quite satisfied with the level of clients which it attracts and the vetting/underwriting processes which are in place.
    Last edited by Raymond du Plessis; 2013/08/21 at 10:47 AM.
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  15. #135
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    Did not mean to attack you and just wondered if the wrong people are not perhaps seeking you out because of your great service. (never a good deed goes unpunished and all that).

    I know all insurers employ very clever mathematicians and statisticians so all the speculation on here is of much lower level thinking than what goes on behind the scenes. With all cases catered for.

  16. #136
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    With quite a bit more than 30 000 members on this forum I believed that posting such a question was relevant to all 30 000+ members here as the majority of these members are avid off-road fans with extensive and valuable knowledge of developments and trends within the 4x4 industry and the activities relating thereto. Activities surrounding the 4x4 Industry and participation in these activities by 4x4 owners are rapidly growing and one simply has to look at the many off-road trails which are being developed on an on-going basis. Also, the number of entrants at this past week-end’s event at Gerotek by the AAWDC speaks volumes as to growing popularity of such events. The other point of influence which I believe is relevant here is the interaction between like-minded people via the social media. One cannot dispute the massive impact which this instant response communication form has had on all our lives. Couple this with the human nature to compete and compare with others and you have an instant and powerful force to create change in any sphere. One can research the content of this forum and find a wealth of information relating to off-road tracks and trails throughout the country varying in degrees of difficulty. No need for FB. One can safely assume then that not all participants at such events or visitors to the various off-road trails will have the necessary skills to properly negotiate these various trails. This is where I believe the crux of my question lay in that:<O</O
    1. Are trails becoming more radical?<O</O
    Or<O</O
    2. Are drivers becoming more gung-ho?<O</O
    <O</O
    My observation and comments are dictated by my limited knowledge of 4x4 track design, but I will say that after 20 odd years of off-roading, l can see trouble when it presents itself. Over the past number of months, I have visited a number of off-road trails as well as two different purpose-built tracks (no names, no pack drill) which were used for fund raising events. At both of the “fund raising” purpose built tracks I was struck by the deliberate construction of obstacles which were designed to virtually prevent you from negotiating it with any degree of skill. Brute force is what made it happen. At some of the permanent off-road trails, the owners were all too eager to entertain with stories of how many 4x4 have been broken on their trail and trophy photo’s thereof are stuck up on the wall. Having said that, I did have the privilege of meeting some really professional operators.<O</O
    <O</O
    What came to the fore quite clearly, is the use of alcohol at these venues. Hey!... don’t get me wrong. It’s the use of alcohol while driving which is a problem and there is very little “skaam” about it being used at any of these tracks and even at some organised events.<O</O
    <O</O
    The fact remains, TUFFSTUFF will always be at the cutting edge of 4x4 insurance product development and asking questions which provokes aggressive debate only serves to provide their clients with a better product.<O</O
    I have never seen a wild animal feeling sorry for itself.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious? View Post
    Did not mean to attack you and just wondered if the wrong people are not perhaps seeking you out because of your great service. (never a good deed goes unpunished and all that).

    I know all insurers employ very clever mathematicians and statisticians so all the speculation on here is of much lower level thinking than what goes on behind the scenes. With all cases catered for.
    No offence taken. It's a free speach forum. Thanks for your involvement.
    Last edited by Raymond du Plessis; 2013/08/21 at 01:09 PM.
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  18. #138
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    Raymond I agree 100% with what you say in Post 136.


    I want to add the following "variable" to your list of items - the trail owner.



    On 16 December 2008 we did our very first "trail" - Two Oceans. This was led by Shorty on this forum. He took a lot of his time to help three first timers, and to this day I am thankful for what he showed us that day.

    26 December we left on holiday. We were to cover a few thousand kilometers of gravel roads .... We stumbled upon Bojaankop trail. It looked so inviting .... we turned and spoke to the owners, well to his wife.

    I asked her 2 or 3 times: "Hoe moeilik is die roete? Sal die Jimny dit kan maak?"


    She had a look at the ground clearance and confidently replied: "Aag wat, ons ry elke dag daai paadjie met die plaas bakkie. Die "tjeepie" sal dit maklik maak."


    She omitted two bit of information:
    - The "plaasbakkie" is a Landcruiser ....
    - once you got to the STEEP section there was no way out !!

    and when we got to the steep section it was badly washed out with severe cross axles - without diff lock the Jimny struggled to maintain traction .... eventually had to apply "brute force" ....

    THANKFULLY we did not sustain any damage !!


    possible solution - maybe if she had said grade 3 going on grade 4 for that section, WITHOUT a bypass .... at least then I could have made an informed decision.

  19. #139
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    I fully understand the predicament that Raymond and other insurers find themselves in.

    Firstly - a lot of people buy 4x4 vehicles - which have certain capabilities in standard form - and try to go where similar but modified vehicles go. Add to this the lack of skills by some of these guys and you have great potential of damage to the vehicle. Secondly you get the "more responsible" owner who goes and make all sorts of modifications to the vehicle in order to protect it from possible damage or make it "more capable" - showing clear intent to use the vehicle beyond the scope of its abilities. If damage occurs, is it then fair to expect the insurer to foot the bill?

    Most will be of the opinion that it is. I do too but - that being said - I would also agree that the insurers then have to cover themselves by basing their premiums on the risk involved - just like they do with drivers below certain ages, or like when a vehicle is for business use, etc. There should also be looked at whether the damage was caused purely by accident or whether it occured as a result of the vehicle being used past the scope of its abilities - maybe even whether the driver was actually trained/skilled enough to drive the vehicle under those circumstances.

    Now - I know many may not like or agree with the above, but what is the alternative? We are already paying inflated insurance premiums because of increased risks for the insurers like crime, inferior driving skills by many drivers, bad road manners as a result of a lack of proper policing etc, etc, etc. Are you prepared to foot the bill for this scenario as well?

    I am not. I will rather pay an acceptable monthly premium and take out extra or temporary insurance on the odd occasion that I use my vehicle in circumstances where there is an increased change of damage. That will also make me think twice before I do something stupid to prove that “mine is longer than yours”.
    Last edited by Vossie; 2013/08/21 at 03:45 PM.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vossie View Post
    Secondly you get the "more responsible" owner who goes and make all sorts of modifications to the vehicle in order to protect it from possible damage - showing clear intent to use the vehicle beyond the scope of its abilities. If damage occurs, is it then fair to expect the insurer to foot the bill?

    Most will be of the opinion that it is. I do too but - that being said - I would also agree that the insurers then have to cover themselves by basing their premiums on the risk involved -
    But I already do pay an increased premium for these modifications as I have specified all these and do pay a premium on all items specified...??
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