Radical trails are a concern - Page 10





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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post

    Erm.

    Is there another alternative ?
    Yeah the Amarok route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vossie View Post
    Apoc, I understand most of the arguments and sentiments here (althought there were some pretty stupid remarks and statements from some), but as I said in an earlier post, if Raymond's observation/prediction become true, we are all going to pay for it - not just the guys who play around regularly. As a matter of fact - the first signs are there!
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  3. #183
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    Raymond,

    It's definitely not the trails.

    I think the increase you're seeing in claims is due to drivers - not necessarily being more "gung-ho", but (1) taking more risk on trails and/or (2) the scope of risk increasing for drivers AND insurers.

    As to why this would be:

    1.)
    In terms of deliberate risk taking: I don't think the pissie factor plays that much of a role. I've never been pressured into an obstacle. I very rarely on a trail see that happen too. I think people are more prone to deliberate risk taking due to social media (having cool photo's on facebook with a wheel in the air etc) and even brand competition/bashing. Platforms such as facebook and even this forum I think are very conducive to (and even encourage) brand competition. Just take another look at this thread - many comments on Disco's, Tuna's and Jeeps etc. Even though it's all in good fun - I believe it does influence behavior on a trail. I'll admit to it myself as well: no tuna shall go where my Pajero can't go!

    Second factor to deliberate risk taking is a sensitive one. Can't believe no one mentioned it here (unless I missed it). I believe alcohol plays a big part too. I enjoy having a few beers as much as anyone - and I'll admit to drinking a lot on occasions - nothing on a trail though! I found it remarkable how often you see guys throwing away the Castle's on a trail. I'm not saying six beers will affect your driving ability to such an extent that you damage your vehicle - but it does influence behavior - it acts as a catalyst for competition and often results in an obstacle being approached with less consideration than usual.

    Then thirdly, Uys was correct. A recent increase in awareness and accessibility of 4x4 insurance has given drivers more peace of mind which supports risk taking. I feel the first two factors are far more prevalent when it comes to deliberate risk taking though.

    2.)
    What I mean with the scope of risk increasing is the following:
    - awareness and as a result, popularity of off roading is on the increase a lot i think - more drivers
    - entry into the fraternity is not governed (buy 4x4, go jol anywhere) - inexperienced drivers
    - i suspect, off roading is also becoming more popular in younger age groups
    - vehicles are becoming softer. This for me, is an important one.
    - vehicle categories are .... merging/overlapping

    On the vehicles: recall the previous Kia Sorento (3.5 EX i think)? It had low range and decent ground clearance. New/current Sorento - lower and lost the low range. This is the trend with many many "off road" vehicles. Consider the Discovery XS (the tough one) - it sells with Pirelli Scorpion tyres - fairly road biased AT tyre. Face it, vehicles are getting softer at a rapid rate. Less and less clearance with no low range and more plastic! There are so many different categories of vehicles emerging these days (cross overs, soft roaders, part time 4x4), I think it's becoming increasingly difficult to define a true 4x4 and to articulate and comprehend a specific vehicle's capabilities.

    So the result of my bullet points above (under point #2) is that I suspect we're having a higher number of drivers who are inexperienced playing around on trails with softer vehicles. Combine this with the three factors listed under point #1 and there's an ever increasing potential for damage and claims.


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  4. #184
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    here is my theory...

    4x4s have become too good.

    you have this with sports cars - 20 years ago something like a Porsche came with lots of horsepower and big brakes. no ABS, no ASR, no stability control.

    It was fast - if you could drive it. but it was very very easy to end up in BIG trouble.

    Also - you had to LEARN to drive to even get it off the line decently, otherwise you'd stall it or disappear in a cloud of tyresmoke while the guy in his XR6 got the prize money AND the chick.

    so - people were 'ginger' with them, and had to have driving skills...

    NOW... go buy a Porsche, jump in it, floor it. it's all done for you. no skill needed to get a great 0-100 time, and you can put it around the track within 2 seconds of the stig straightaway.



    but.... it's still a Porsche, and when it gets to the point where your ambition has exceeded the car's ability - it's backwards into the wall, just like the old ones.

    It's just anyone can get it to close to that point and not have a clue they are even getting to the edge.


    4x4s now are much the same. get in a D4, select ' rocky road' , turn the aircon to 'warm' and put something suitably stirring on the 17 speaker sound system and point it straight up everest.

    and it will get most of the way, because it's BLOODY good - but SUDDENLY you'll hit it's limit... and back down it will come....

    older ones - you knew when the limit was coming, because you'd crapped yourself a long time before you got to that limit...

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond du Plessis View Post
    Mike,
    Believe me, there are many, many options and one can get very inventive about this. However, it is not about anything else other than exactly what the original question poses. i.e. are trails becoming too radical.... or ..... are drivers becoming more gung-ho?

    In my opinion (and I have discussed this elsewhere on this forum), social media definately plays a part in the encouragement of driver behaviour, one way or another. One only has to look at the many threads on this very forum relating to this matter. We are all human and we all have a competative streak in us.
    Raymond, maybe your 4x4 insurance should have a requirement like all other regular insurance that requires a spesific level of security alarm, tracker or what have you.......yours should require level 1 and 2 offroad training which includes offroad recovery. If a person still wants 4x4 offroad insurance and do not have the training, your company is at risk of a claim and that can then incurr a higher monthly installment as well as higher access payable upon a claim.

    This will ensure more people get proper offrad training which will then decrease the possibility of claims/damage.

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  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by offroad junky View Post
    ....proper offrad training which will then decrease the possibility of claims/damage.
    You can't be sure there is a direct relation.
    Dewald

  7. #187
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    Well the answer is simple. Don't look at the people who claim. .
    Find out why they don't claim and make sure the others follow their lead?
    Last edited by elliotgr; 2013/08/24 at 04:47 PM. Reason: maybe a rephrase is needed?
    Glen

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by elliotgr View Post
    Well the answer is simple. Don't look at the people who claim. Look at the people who don't and base your marketing at them.
    Find out why they don't claim and make sure the others follow their lead?
    Sorry, but the original question had nothing to do about marketing.
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by offroad junky View Post
    Raymond, maybe your 4x4 insurance should have a requirement like all other regular insurance that requires a spesific level of security alarm, tracker or what have you.......yours should require level 1 and 2 offroad training which includes offroad recovery. If a person still wants 4x4 offroad insurance and do not have the training, your company is at risk of a claim and that can then incurr a higher monthly installment as well as higher access payable upon a claim.

    This will ensure more people get proper offrad training which will then decrease the possibility of claims/damage.

    Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk 2

    There might be a lot of merit in training for newbies.
    But the old dogs like Apoc and XJ will have a heart attack
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  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond du Plessis View Post
    An ever increasing number of vehicles are being damaged on trails and the question to be asked is;
    1. are the trails becoming more radical......or
    2. are drivers becoming more gung-ho ?
    Maybe we need to relook at the question?
    I think it is neither. More and more drivers don't have the skill or knowledge about their vehicles, and attempt something they shouldn't. They may not necessarily be gung ho, but that can't be ruled out totally.
    As was stated earlier, the sales man told them it can go 'anywhere'!
    Just my opinion.
    Glen

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by offroad junky View Post

    Raymond, maybe your 4x4 insurance should have a requirement like all other regular insurance that requires a spesific level of security alarm, tracker or what have you.......yours should require level 1 and 2 offroad training which includes offroad recovery. If a person still wants 4x4 offroad insurance and do not have the training, your company is at risk of a claim and that can then incurr a higher monthly installment as well as higher access payable upon a claim.

    This will ensure more people get proper offrad training which will then decrease the possibility of claims/damage.

    Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk 2
    And then a Exodus to XC will start.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurard View Post
    And then a Exodus to XC will start.
    I disagree Euraard. Those posers will never see another cent of my money, even if I need to do a 4X4 refresher course.

    When you take out insurance with TS they ask how long you've been 4X4ing and about training.

    Based on this they can and should impose a training requirement if deemed necessary for newbies.

    You been 4X4ing for 5 years without putting your Tuna on it's roof - no training required.
    Or like Me, Been 4X4ing for a year and rolled a Discovery on a gravel road - training required.

    Fair requirement for risk management. OH I I have done 2 level 1&2 courses.
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  13. #193
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    Perhaps the trick is to train people in something that's mechanical and hard work - like an old defender.

    Training people in a new top end bells and whistles electronics do it for you 4x4 is about the same as teaching them on a playstation...

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Perhaps the trick is to train people in something that's mechanical and hard work - like an old defender.

    Training people in a new top end bells and whistles electronics do it for you 4x4 is about the same as teaching them on a playstation...
    Agree,with your previous post as well,there's no working up to a modded 4x4,when you buy basic you HAVE to learn how to drive off road with it,THEN you mod it with lockers for e.g.
    Now its buy the 4x4 with all the mods on.
    THEN 'they' try to use it like a seasoned 4x4er,mostly they manage and are heroes,but put them in a basic 4x4 and see how far they get.

    As you wrote,it's point and squirt,bugger the damage.They are doing it with the aids,but in a basic 4x4 they won't GET to the point of damage.
    IMHO
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  15. #195
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    IMHO

    The more training you do the more you believe you are capable of.

    Saw it yesterday again.

    You will not see many with fresh new 4x4s doing more difficult obstacles.

    Experience can be seen in the same light. Its opposite than road driving in that sense.

  16. #196
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    well, to be fair...

    the idea behind any kind of training is to become more capable

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Perhaps the trick is to train people in something that's mechanical and hard work - like an old defender.

    Training people in a new top end bells and whistles electronics do it for you 4x4 is about the same as teaching them on a playstation...
    Have to agree with you there Alex. Learning to 'drive' the vehicle, as appose to learning which button to push has an important role to play. Modern vehicles can easily 'disguise' the vehicle's and the driver's limitations creating a false sense of security IMHO. Leaving the driver not fully exposed to the physics and mechanics involved in taking that vehicle off a paved road, and the inherent possible risks.

    I also believe that sales people trying the best to reach a target, and not sufficiently knowledgeable about the vehicle they are selling add to this risk. This factor I would combine with training, and the real world expertise of the trainer. For instance, a young 'wanna-be' driver trainer once told me "a car with ABS cannot and will not under-steer, ever". This same driver trainer seeks out government training contracts, especially the emergency response departments. I can see a few 'face first' crashes in his client's future.

    An interesting debate Raymond has raised here, but I don't think there is a simple answer to this. People are simply too diverse and everyone approach or perceives risk differently. Possibly the root cause to such incidents would provide more light on the subject, which IMHO is where the 'cure' lies, and not so much the direct cause. Training could help to address the root cause, but I can't help wondering how much of any training programme focuses on that. Even then, the training would have to rely on the person applying what they have learnt. Physical skill is necessary for sure, but in isolation, it won't stop a crash from happening.

    Ok let me stop, I'm blabbing on now
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  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    well, to be fair...

    the idea behind any kind of training is to become more capable
    Absolutely. Yet then those capable people attempt more risky situations this in a sense is no issue though. Now those more capable dont see the lesser obstacles as risky and the lax attitude often find them getting damage on silly little things.

  19. #199
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    I pay the premium monthly, Insurer accepts the risk happily at the inception of the policy. I expect my damage is covered as long as I damage it within the rules of the policy. I dont complain every month when that debit order goes off. I expect the same when the claim form gets submitted.
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    +1
    I dont think you go and drive offroad with the intension to damage the vehicle.
    As with regards to overland trips...this is also debatable. Do you go "overland" on un-tarred roads or are you going really off-road on your overland trip. Do a Wildcoast trip, truly "offroad" and you will not drive away without damage.
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