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  1. #1
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    Default Salt Chlorinators

    Toying with the idea of installing one of these. My concern is the replacement costs of the electrodes and plates. I have varying reports of anywhere between R400 and R2500 every 2 years or so depending on how you maintain it. Anyone who has experience with these things that has had to replace any parts and at what cost. At R2000 every 2 years thats not much of a saving compared to the usual chemicals etc.

    Is it worth getting the expensive jobs or will a R4000 Poolmaid unit at Builders warehouse suffice? I'm a firm believer of "goedkoop is duurkoop", but does this count in this instance?

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    IIRC the important thing is how you run it.
    It needs an hour or so brake in the cycle.

    For example, Run it from 9am to 12am and then 1pm to 4pm.
    Last edited by Jeanvn; 2013/06/07 at 09:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by barman1965 View Post
    Toying with the idea of installing one of these. My concern is the replacement costs of the electrodes and plates. I have varying reports of anywhere between R400 and R2500 every 2 years or so depending on how you maintain it. Anyone who has experience with these things that has had to replace any parts and at what cost. At R2000 every 2 years thats not much of a saving compared to the usual chemicals etc.

    Is it worth getting the expensive jobs or will a R4000 Poolmaid unit at Builders warehouse suffice? I'm a firm believer of "goedkoop is duurkoop", but does this count in this instance?
    THE worst part of the chlorinator for me was the water. A mixture of salt and chlorine does not taste too good. It's almost like swimming in sweat. And yes, the sea is also salty, but it is a 10 times more salty than the pool, and it doesn't have any chlorine.

    The chlorinator cell cost R2,400.00 to replace every 2nd year, depending on use. It is also a schlep to clean the cell. Our pool required 150kg of salt per year. Salt is cheap, though.

    So we chucked the chlorinator and I am back to using floats and granular chlorine.

    Some more info from Wiki:
    The benefits of salt systems in pools are the convenience and the constant delivery of pure chlorine-based sanitizer. The reduction of irritating chloramines versus traditional chlorinating methods and the "softening" effect of electrolysis reducing dissolved alkali minerals in the water are also perceived as benefits. For some people that have sensitivities to chlorine, these systems may be less offensive.

    Downsides are initial cost of the system, maintenance, and the cost of replacement cells. Salt is a corrosive; it will damage some metals and some improperly-sealed stone, however as the ideal saline concentration of a salt-chlorinated pool is very low (<3,500ppm, the threshold for human perception of salt by taste; seawater is about ten times this concentration), damage usually occurs due to improperly-maintained pool chemistry or improper maintenance of the electrolytic cell. Pool equipment manufacturers will not warranty stainless steel products damaged by saline pools.

    Calcium and other alkali precipitate build-up will occur naturally on the cathode plate, and sometimes in the pool itself as "scaling". Regular maintenance of the cell is necessary; failure to do so will reduce the effectiveness of the cell, which will in turn increase the salinity of the water to corrosive levels (as water flowing through the chlorinator will have salt added but not electrolyzed into chlorine). Certain designs of saline chlorinators use a "reverse-polarity" design that will regularly switch the roles of the two electrodes between anode and cathode, causing this calcium build-up to dissolve off the accumulating electrode. Such systems reduce, but do not eliminate, the need to clean the electrolytic cell and the occurrence of calcium scale in the water.

    As chlorine is generated, PH will rise causing the chlorine to be less effective. Many systems with chemistry automation will automatically sense the rising PH and automatically introduce either CO2 or Muriatic acid in order to bring the PH back to the target level.

    Automation systems will also manage levels of sanitizer by monitoring the ORP or redux levels of the water. This allows only the needed amount of chlorine to be generated based on the demand.

    Sodium bromide can be used instead of sodium chloride, which produces a bromine pool. The benefits and downsides are the same as those of a salt system. It is not necessary to use a chloride-based acid to balance the pH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanvn View Post
    IIRC the important thing is how you run it.
    It needs an hour or so brake in the cycle.

    For example, Run it from 9am to 12am and then 1pm to 4pm.
    Apologies if this is a dumb question, but what's the reason for doing this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by N00B View Post
    THE worst part of the chlorinator for me was the water. A mixture of salt and chlorine does not taste too good. It's almost like swimming in sweat. And yes, the sea is also salty, but it is a 10 times more salty than the pool, and it doesn't have any chlorine.

    The chlorinator cell cost R2,400.00 to replace every 2nd year, depending on use. It is also a schlep to clean the cell. Our pool required 150kg of salt per year. Salt is cheap, though.

    So we chucked the chlorinator and I am back to using floats and granular chlorine.

    Some more info from Wiki:
    The benefits of salt systems in pools are the convenience and the constant delivery of pure chlorine-based sanitizer. The reduction of irritating chloramines versus traditional chlorinating methods and the "softening" effect of electrolysis reducing dissolved alkali minerals in the water are also perceived as benefits. For some people that have sensitivities to chlorine, these systems may be less offensive.

    Downsides are initial cost of the system, maintenance, and the cost of replacement cells. Salt is a corrosive; it will damage some metals and some improperly-sealed stone, however as the ideal saline concentration of a salt-chlorinated pool is very low (<3,500ppm, the threshold for human perception of salt by taste; seawater is about ten times this concentration), damage usually occurs due to improperly-maintained pool chemistry or improper maintenance of the electrolytic cell. Pool equipment manufacturers will not warranty stainless steel products damaged by saline pools.

    Calcium and other alkali precipitate build-up will occur naturally on the cathode plate, and sometimes in the pool itself as "scaling". Regular maintenance of the cell is necessary; failure to do so will reduce the effectiveness of the cell, which will in turn increase the salinity of the water to corrosive levels (as water flowing through the chlorinator will have salt added but not electrolyzed into chlorine). Certain designs of saline chlorinators use a "reverse-polarity" design that will regularly switch the roles of the two electrodes between anode and cathode, causing this calcium build-up to dissolve off the accumulating electrode. Such systems reduce, but do not eliminate, the need to clean the electrolytic cell and the occurrence of calcium scale in the water.

    As chlorine is generated, PH will rise causing the chlorine to be less effective. Many systems with chemistry automation will automatically sense the rising PH and automatically introduce either CO2 or Muriatic acid in order to bring the PH back to the target level.

    Automation systems will also manage levels of sanitizer by monitoring the ORP or redux levels of the water. This allows only the needed amount of chlorine to be generated based on the demand.

    Sodium bromide can be used instead of sodium chloride, which produces a bromine pool. The benefits and downsides are the same as those of a salt system. It is not necessary to use a chloride-based acid to balance the pH.
    Appreciate the post, thanks.

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    The pool at my previous house had a salt chlorinator and it did the job just fine. However, as mentioned by Noob, the water tastes nasty and you have to take a shower afterwards to get rid of that sticky feeling on the skin - like with sea water. And yes - the electrodes are expensive. Well - it was then - things might have changed. When the second electrode in 3 years packed up, I went back to the traditional methods.
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    I am using Activator D in my pool : http://www.activatord.com/

    Cost about R150 per dose which is lasting about 3 - 4 months in my pool. Adding no chlorine, no acid, pump runs 1 hour per day. 45000L pool.

    I did find that where I had algae growing into the marbleite (sp?) slightly blueish patches have appeared. But I would rather have these than algae again. Now I can go on holiday and not worry about the pool.

    In December my pool trip switch tripped and the pool pump did not run for the entire 3 weeks I was on holiday. Bottom was dirty but water was crystal clear and blue.

    Amazing stuff.

    No connections etc.
    Best regards
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    My local community pool is salty rather than chlorinated, and I don't recognise the issues people are talking about here. There is no sticky-skin thing, and the taste of any water inadvertently swallowed is far milder than sea-water. It is immeasurably more pleasant than chlorinated water in taste and smell, and as one who suffers badly with bloodshot eyes in chlorinated water, give me salt water in preference to the usual mild bleach solution every day of the week.

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  10. #9
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    Interesting comments regarding the water taste and smell
    Been running a clorinator in my pool now for 10 years plus.
    Only replaced the electrode once. Guys that installed it said to clean it with pool acid!!
    Was not a good idea.
    In summer I clean my electrode once a month with the pool brush.

    Only negative side to the clorinator is that you have to run the pump much longer to generate the nessesary chlorine.
    Also make sure your stabiliser levels is correct.

    Found the water to be very soft and no irritations to skin or eyes.
    Perhaps our water here in CPT is better quality than up in JHB?

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    We installed a salt chlorinator when we installed our pool.

    Our experiance was that the water was softer than water with chlorine in it. Even our hair was softer after a swim. There was a slight salt taste to the water but very slight.

    The unit or the plates packed up about two years ago and I started using Blue 52. We only have a 16000L pool so one Blue 52 lasts me at least 3 months.

    With the salt chlorinater you still have to check your Ph regularly but with the Blue 52 I hardly ever check it.

    The pump has to run with a chloronater to get the chlorine in to the system.

    This is based on my experiance.
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    I have a salt chlorinator in my pool, but it is deactivated due to the high cost of the cell. Replaced it twice in 3 years, at about R1500 a pop and decided Blue52 works as well. Been on that for about 3 years now without any issues.

    I agree with Mike that the taste of the salt water is no issue and we never had any hassle with sticky/salty skins after swimming. The salt water is also much "softer" on the eyes. My change was made from a purely financial point of view.

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    I was told that one should only add chlorine at night into the well to mix And disperse correctly,as the sun removes the chlorine when exposed to sunlight.Secondly chlorinators working during daytime if above is correct would prove useless.Any corrections to my opinion would be welcome.My BIL uses Blue 54.

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    The biggest problem with non-chlorine based products is that they keep the water crystal clear, but they do no sanitize the water. Here's some reading:

    Pool owners frequently seek out "Chemical Free" alternatives to pool water sanitization. Many claims in favor of these systems and methods have been made (usually by the manufacturers of such systems) often without adequate scientific proof of their efficacy. Let's take a look at them and see how well they hold up.

    The notion of a "Chemical Free" pool is a bit of a misnomer. If you want sanitized water, as defined by the EPA, you should know that there are only three EPA approved primary sanitizers -- chlorine, bromine, and biguanide (aka Baqua, SoftSwim, Revacil, etc.). These are your only choices - period. Everything else is a supplemental sanitizer that MUST be used in conjunction with one of these three if you want sanitized water! Why are these the only three approved sanitizers? These are the only sanitizers with fast kill times that also leave a residual in the water for ongoing protection.

    Let's look at some of these alternative sanitizers and see if they "hold water".

    First there are the 'metal ion' and 'mineral' systems that might also include oxidation by oxygen (not ozone). Some of them are active and use electricity and metal electrodes to generate the ion and others use an erosion feeder with metallic salts like silver nitrate and copper sulfate that slowly dissolve to put the ions in the water. These added metals (usually copper, silver, and/or zinc) can hardly be considered 'chemical free.' Metals do have algaestatic and bacteriostatic properties but they have very slow kill times so they look better on paper then in actual use. They can be very effective for drinking water purification since the water can sit in the tank for enough time for pathogens to be killed before being used (and this water purification usage is often cited as a tribute to their effectiveness) BUT water purification is a closed system, while a swimming pool is an open system, meaning anything can and will drop into the pool at any time, (such as bird droppings, sweat, urine and feces from bathers, dogs jumping into the water, etc.) For this reason a residual EPA approved sanitizer with fast kill times such as one of the three above is needed.

    Many of these metals systems used to be advertised as chemical free or chlorine free, but this is no longer permitted in most countries for obvious reasons. They might also use the term 'minerals' to make it sound healthy and spa like! - minerals are good for us, aren't they? How about if the 'minerals' are copper sulfate and silver nitrate? Still sounding healthy and chemical free? Ionizers do basically the same thing by electrolysis of copper and silver electrodes. A new twist is combining copper ionization with titanium electrode oxygen generation! - pure pseudoscience!

    What about copper systems - chemical based? (See ionizers and mineral systems above.) Again, they are not primary sanitizers and need to be used with a chlorine residual. Most of this type of product (chelated copper sulfate) is actually sold as algaecide and not sanitizer. Of course there is that 'chlorine is bad and I want something safer' market to tap into, and there are plenty of well-intentioned people who buy into the hype. It makes for slick marketing but knowing what you know now, would you rather have chlorine or copper sulfate in your water? Since chlorine is an effective sanitizer and oxidizer and copper is not (and copper can and will stain pools and turn hair green) then give me the chlorine!

    The biggest drawback to metal ion systems, besides the fact that they are NOT primary sanitizers, is that they can stain pools and people--green hair is caused by copper.

    An interesting thing about these metal systems, is that they are not permitted in Australia even with reduced chlorine levels but must be used with normal chlorination levels. Why? Research has shown them to be ineffective at quickly killing some of the 'nasties' that can get in to a pool. Also, most state Health Departments do not recognize them as suitable sanitizers for commercial installations. Why? Once again, they are not effective without a residual sanitizer. Remember, copper is a very effective algaecide and zinc is almost as effective so if you have one of these systems your water will probably look clear most of the time because algae won't grow but other things can! Clear water does not automatically mean safe water! These systems leave you feeling like you are doing something good for your family, but what you are potentially doing is exposing them to dangerous bacteria and pathogens.

    What about ozone and/or UV? Can't that reduce or eliminate the need for chlorine? In a word, No, and for a very simple reason. Ozone and UV have NO residual effect so again, a residual sanitizer is still needed. The only place these will kill pathogens is in the contact chamber (where the water is exposed to the ozone or UV), not in the pool. Ozone will destroy chlorine but will oxidize organics so it's a two edge sword. You will generally have higher chlorine consumption with ozone than without and it does not allow you to run lower chlorine levels because there is no residual effect from the ozone. The higher bather to water ratio in a spa makes ozone much more useful there than in a pool because it does oxidize organics. Ozone is also toxic in large enough quantities to actually sanitize pool water. For many, ozone is more useful in bromine systems since it will activate the bromide into bromine sanitizer so it works with bromine instead of against it. However, it will cause bromates to form and they are a suspected carcinogen in drinking water!

    UV light can kill pathogens and some of the units also produce some ozone but this only occurs in the contact chamber and there is no residual effect in the pool. Once again, more useful in a spa than a pool. UV might be of some value in an indoor pool in conjunction with chlorine to help destroy persistent chloramines.

    Not convinced yet?

    What about Enzymes? They can help reduce or prevent a scum line but are NOT sanitizers?

    Hydrogen peroxide? Hydrogen peroxide is NOT effective as a stand-alone sanitizer. To have a high enough level of hydrogen peroxide in the water to act as a sanitizer would cause extreme bather discomfort, to say the least! In the US it is used as an oxidizer in conjunction with biguanide.

    MPS (potassium monopersulfate)? An oxidizer, NOT a sanitizer! Some metal-based systems used to say that you could use strictly MPS and no chlorine was needed. This has changed and they no longer say that in the US (and most other countries as well).

    "Proprietary mixtures" that make all kinds of claims and have a lot of pseudo sciences are nothing more than snake oil. If they won't tell you what is in it you don't want to use it! If they say that you need to shock or use a bit of chlorine it is NOT a primary sanitizer!

    What about magnets, electronics devices that generate 'standing waves' in the water, nascent oxygen, etc? If you believe any of this stuff works then you may be beyond help.

    Chlorine gets a lot of bad press but anyone who follows the methods we outline here and at TFP know that a properly chlorinated pool does not fade your bathing suits, make your eyes red, or smell like chlorine! It actually is a lot safer than the alternatives when it comes right down to it.

    Sauce...

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    A salt chlorinator must run long enough to produce enough chlorine for your pool...so, if you have a small pool...the time it takes to produce enough chlorine vs normal chlorine or a floater vs the electricity consumed to make the chlorine was a deciding factor for me..

    At our previous house we had a "large" pool and was the chlorinator the way to go..was much cheaper than maintaining a chlorine pool....but now we have splash type pool..much cheaper to add a floater now and again...

    I still prefer the salt, much healthier and never ever had the smell some of you are referring to..

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    Quote Originally Posted by N00B View Post
    The biggest problem with non-chlorine based products is that they keep the water crystal clear, but they do no sanitize the water. ........
    This is misleading.

    Let's turn it around. In the more normal chlorine-based pools, it isn't the chlorine which kills the bacteria........it is the oxygen. So, chlorine based pool products also don't sanitise the water.

    However, with both systems, the water is sanitised. Not by the additive, but by the system. Here is some reading.

    Do you really think that risk-averse local Councils in the UK would be installing public swimming pools which didn't meet standards for water cleanliness and safety? With every man and his dog ready to sue at the drop of a hat? Well, more and more public pools over here are salt-based, and they are marvellous.

    Please be careful of spreading propoganda under the guise of science, when that "science" is actually pseudo-science and misleading.

    Mike
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    Another issue that could cause the element of a chlorinator to disintegrate is copper or other foreign metals in the water.
    So I can not use my borehole to add water to the pool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wetkit View Post
    Perhaps our water here in CPT is better quality than up in JHB?
    Dream on! You've got a mountain, beaches, fynbos, Stormers, WeePee, better drivers, pretty wind, snoek, Koeberg and the like, please don't take our water as well!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAG View Post
    This is misleading.

    Let's turn it around. In the more normal chlorine-based pools, it isn't the chlorine which kills the bacteria........it is the oxygen. So, chlorine based pool products also don't sanitise the water.

    However, with both systems, the water is sanitised. Not by the additive, but by the system. Here is some reading.

    Do you really think that risk-averse local Councils in the UK would be installing public swimming pools which didn't meet standards for water cleanliness and safety? With every man and his dog ready to sue at the drop of a hat? Well, more and more public pools over here are salt-based, and they are marvellous.

    Please be careful of spreading propoganda under the guise of science, when that "science" is actually pseudo-science and misleading.

    Mike
    You are wrong. Chlorine poured into water breaks down into a couple of chemicals, including hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ion. Both kill bacteria by attacking the lipids in the cell walls, and destroying the enzymes and structures inside the cell, rendering them oxidized and harmless.

    The difference between the acid and the ion is that the acid is able to oxidize bacteria in a couple of seconds, while the ion can take up to 30 minutes. You can read more on this here...

    Oxygen does not sanitize. Ozone does. Big difference.

    Getting back to salt chlorinators. Salt chlorinators produce chlorine = good. The article I posted make specific reference to products like Blu52 - products that do not make use of chlorine (or reduced quantities of chlorine).

    Nobody doubted the efficiency of a chlorinator, least of all me. I had one. It worked. The water tasted crap, but didn't smell of anything. The chlorinator cells are expensive to replace. This is based on first hand experience I had with it.

    Granted, I could have added too much salt (150kg in a 75,000L pool), which took away some of the enjoyment. Would I go with salt again? No thanks.

    Salt is considered easy because the chlorinator does all the work for you. You just have to ensure that your pump runs long enough. What you are not being told, is that you still have to test the water and add chlorine/shock/whatever as and when it is required.

    Personally, I don't have a problem with popping a float and a couple of scoops of chlorine into the pool every now and then.

    So the cost of chemicals are offset with the cost of the chlorinator cell, so there is no real argument there for the chlorinator. I found the chlorinator no less work than the traditional solution, so there is no real argument the for it either. I did find that my pump had to run for 12 - 14 hours per day during summer for the chlorinator to be efficient. I now run it for 4 hours in winter and 6 - 8 hours (or more if needed) in summer.

    My 5c...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LRwit View Post
    I am using Activator D in my pool : http://www.activatord.com/

    Cost about R150 per dose which is lasting about 3 - 4 months in my pool. Adding no chlorine, no acid, pump runs 1 hour per day. 45000L pool.

    I did find that where I had algae growing into the marbleite (sp?) slightly blueish patches have appeared. But I would rather have these than algae again. Now I can go on holiday and not worry about the pool.

    In December my pool trip switch tripped and the pool pump did not run for the entire 3 weeks I was on holiday. Bottom was dirty but water was crystal clear and blue.

    Amazing stuff.

    No connections etc.

    so where can one get hold of this stuff ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by N00B View Post
    ......Oxygen does not sanitize. Ozone does. Big difference........
    Oh come on. Ozone is oxygen. If you are going to play semantics, then maybe you should use the chemical symbols rather than the words. Oxygen exists in 2 forms on earth, O1 and O2. They are both oxygen, although O1 is also known as ozone.

    And as I said before, it isn't what you pour into the water that kills the pathogens. It is the total system. I don't think you read the article I linked to, so here it is again, in-line:

    The more savvy pool owner will know that one of the types of “Chlorine” he could use is actually Sodium Hypochlorite and when he adds it to water Hypochlorous Acid (HOCl) is formed and that is what actually kills stuff. Sodium Hypochlorite sounds a bit like Sodium Chloride – salt. Well it is close, but just putting salt in your pool will not kill bacteria – you have to “hypo” it. To “hypo” it you have to add an Oxygen atom. If you mix a lot of water (H2O) and little salt (NaCl) together and pass an electric current through it, greatly simplified, an Oxygen atom and a Hydrogen atom join up with a Chlorine atom and you get H + O+ Cl = HOCl, hypochlorous acid. Bingo! All bacteria dead and lovely clean pool water.
    Mike
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