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  1. #1
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    Default Heat pump vs solar panels

    Last update: 2 Mar 2013

    Notes:



    1. I will be listing the pro's and cons of both systems here and intend updating this first post as they come in. The idea of this list is not to promote either system but merely to list the advantages and disadvantages of each as they are presented.
    2. It is indisputable that both heat pumps and solar systems save substantial costs on water heating. The actual figures are like fuel consumption figures (what do you want it to be??) since this will change from household to household.
    3. DO NOT JUDGE either system by the NUMBER of advantages or disadvantages. Judge by the content and their relevance to your situation.
    4. Both types qualify for Eskom rebates (FWIW...)
    5. These statements are not my views but a summary of those collected from various web sites I have visited in researching this topic.
    6. Figures claimed by these web sites and references to their products were removed to keep things as unbiased as possible.

    <table><tbody><tr><td>Heat pump: advantages

    • Initial capital outlay of a heat pump is typically less than a solar system
    • The recovery period is typically less than a solar system
    • Easy installation: The installation of a heat pump doesn’t require intricate plumbing work and is fairly easy to install, on both a commercial and residential level.
    • Minimum space requirements: A heat pump needn’t be installed on a roof, and can be installed outdoors.
    • Hot water 24/7: Because a heat pump relies on electricity, it can provide hot water 24/7 when there is dependable electricity supply.


    Heat pumps: disadvantages


    • Water quality plays a major part in selection. Heat pump manufacturers do not warrant their systems if the hardness of the water is higher than a certain level. The calcium carbonate in the water solidifies and falls to the bottom of the tank. After a while, the sediment starts to block the heat exchanger. (Corrosion and blockage of the heat exchanger due to poor quality water may not be covered in the warranty). Hard water (water with high levels of calcium carbonate) needs to be treated with a water softening plant, resulting in high cost implications. Maintenance of the salt levels is vital to ensure the 'recharging' of the ion exchange.
    • A retrofit heat pump does not have to replace your existing hot water storage tank. However, some heat pumps are installed with its own water tank – the existing water tank (geyser) is removed and replaced with a new storage tank.
    • Heat pumps are less efficient than a solar system in high radiation and low ambient temperatures. It is alleged that this makes a solar water heater more ideal for our winters, where we have cold clear sky.
    • Heat pumps may require more maintenance, due to constant moving parts that needs to be replaced from time to time. Maintenance on a heat pump also requires the skills of a plumber, electrician or aircon technician.A heat pump has a compressor (like a fridge), a fan and a water pump to cycle water to the geyser (where a seperate geyser is used)
    • The lifecycle of a heat pump is typically less than solar heaters (how much less? What do you want the answer to be?)
    • Heat pumps are completely dependent on electricity to generate hot water
    • When installing a heat pump externally at coastal areas one should be aware of prevailing wind conditions potentially bringing salt into the pump
    • Heat pumps make a sound similar to the external air-con units. They tend to operate after hot water has been consumed (at night, early in the morning).
    • Can not produce water temperatures as high as solar systems - but certainly high enough for most typical residential and commercial applications. Since installing my own, I have found the maximum temp to be 55degC with the heat pump alone. Using the electrical element water temp can be still raised from 56 - 75deg. This may be necessary when a high demand will be placed on hot water supply (when the family comes to visit). The hotter the water in the geyser (tank), the less volume will be consumed which could make a smallish geyser seem large.

    </td> <td>
    </td></tr><tr> <td> Solar water heater: advantages

    • A roof mounted solar water heater doesn’t rely on electricity to provide hot water when the sun is shining. Most solar systems have a backup element, which means that your household will always have hot water regardless of the weather.
    • Solar water heater may come with longer factory warranty
    • The lifecycle of a solar water heater is regarded as longer than that of a heat pump (how much longer? What do you want the answer to be?)
    • Can produce higher water temperatures than heat pumps and could even bring the water to boiling point.


    Solar water heater: disadvantages


    • High capital upfront investment and installation costs (in comparison to a heat pump in areas with GOOD quality water, otherwise the initial capital costs are the same);
    • The recovery period of a solar system is typically longer than a heat pump;
    • Solar panels can be aesthetically unappealing;
    • A solar water heater works optimally when the sun shines, if it is overcast, the back-up element kicks in to compensate for the lack of solar energy.
    • Routine maintenance similar to an electric geyser is needed on a solar water heater, but only on the valves and not on the system itself.
    • SWH panels are susceptible to airborne dirt build up from dust, pollution, rain and salt sea spray. These can reduce the effectiveness of the solar radiation collection. Solar tubes may require occasional cleaning for optimal efficiency
    • Orientation and positioning of the SWH panels is imperative to maximize the solar radiation collection capabilities. (Travelling on holiday I noticed how many - and there were MANY - solar heating systems in the townships were installed facing SOUTH!!!) The correct placement of solar panels is essential. To ensure sufficient savings, the solar panels either needs to face north, east or west.
    • The solar collectors and panels are susceptible to damage from freezing, hail and possible over-pressurisation of the system.
    • the installation may need the roof to be structurally reinforced to carry the additional pinpoint weight loading of both cylinder and panels
    • Consumers must be aware of the difference between a high and low pressure SWH system as this may affect the existing mixer taps within the residence.
    • Effectiveness of SWH systems are dependent on where in the country they are installed (coastal areas receive significantly less annual radiation than the interior regions of the country).

    This posting was prompted by this thread: http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/...d.php?t=136677

    </td></tr></tbody></table>
    Last edited by LRwit; 2013/03/02 at 06:33 AM. Reason: More info, corrections
    Best regards
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  2. #2
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    Default Heat pump vs solar panels

    Good stuff! Hopefully a mod will make this a sticky once it has run it;s course...
    Post a link to the other Thread too , please.

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    Thanks, good info. What brands of solar kit are recommended?
    Francois
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    if this is to be a debate - I would have to point out various issues with the first post ......

    My feedback is based on USERS feedback. I have read all the sales talk, but all too often the end users experience DO NOT match this.






    <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>Heat pump: advantages

    • Initial capital outlay of a heat pump is typically less than a solar system - we rechecked this in December 2012, at the time the typical price difference was R300 after rebate
    • The recovery period is typically less than a solar system would appreciate seeing the maths prooving this
    • Easy installation: The installation of a heat pump doesn’t require intricate plumbing work and is fairly easy to install, on both a commercial and residential level. swings and roundabouts - less plumbing work, but now there are an aircon installation ...
    • Minimum space requirements: A heat pump needn’t be installed on a roof, and can be installed outdoors. In fact, it might be better to install it under a tiled or metal roof where lots of hot air is trapped. WHAT !! In winter mornings these trapped areas will be too COLD, and the unit WONT work, depending on safeties you might even damage the unit
    • Hot water 24/7: Because a heat pump relies on electricity, it can provide hot water 24/7 when there is dependable electricity supply. Probably the main benefit of heat pumps, and sadly the main downfall in a country were many dont have reliable electricity supply. One more thing to note - IF you go this route with the Eskom Rebate the unit is to be on a timer and OFF during peak hours !! And THIS is where a LOT of complains originate, for BOTH heat pump and Solar systems, people WANT hot water during peak hours ....

    Heat pumps: disadvantages

    • Water quality plays a major part in selection. Heat pump manufacturers do not warrant their systems if the hardness of the water is higher than a certain level. The calcium carbonate in the water solidifies and falls to the bottom of the tank. After a while, the sediment starts to block the heat exchanger. (Corrosion and blockage of the heat exchanger due to poor quality water may not be covered in the warranty). Hard water (water with high levels of calcium carbonate) needs to be treated with a water softening plant, resulting in high cost implications. Maintenance of the salt levels is vital to ensure the 'recharging' of the ion exchange.
    • The correct placement of heat pumps is essential. To ensure sufficient savings, the heat pump either needs to face north, east or west. ?? Surely this line refers to SOLAR systems. Heat pumps make a sound similar to the external air-con units. They tend to operate after hot water has been consumed (at night, early in the morning).
    • A retrofit heat pump does not have to replace your existing hot water storage tank. However, some heat pumps are installed with its own water tank – the existing water tank (geyser) is removed and replaced with a new storage tank.
    • Heat pumps are less efficient than a solar system in high radiation and low ambient temperatures. It is alleged that this makes a solar water heater more ideal for our winters, where we have cold clear sky. TEMPERATURE - applies to heat pumps. COLD temperatures do drastically reduce the efficiency of heat pumps. CLOWD cover applies to Solar
    • Heat pumps may require more maintenance, due to constant moving parts that needs to be replaced from time to time. Maintenance on a heat pump also requires the skills of a plumber, electrician or aircon technician.A heat pump has a compressor (like a fridge), a fan and a water pump to cycle water to the geyser (where a seperate geyser is used) Heatpumps DO require "substantial" maintenance. This WILL add to the total cost of ownership.
    • The lifecycle of a heat pump is typically 5-10 year, and is completely dependent on electricity to generate hot water As with any aircon system the life cycle is directly related to the maintenance done. AT the coast these units will suffer a LOT of corrosion. Products such as Bluchem may be needed to extend the life of the condenser coil ... all adding to the cost of ownership
    • When installing a heat pump externally at coastal areas one should be aware of prevailing wind conditions potentially bringing salt into the pump see comment above, salt and corrosion is part of life at the sea ...
    • Can not produce water temperatures as high as solar systems - but certainly high enough for most typical residential and commercial applications THIS is one of the sources of complaints ... during low ambient temperature conditions the effeciency is LOW (as previously mentioned), thus the unit struggles to reach the set temperature and clients start complaining of "cold water"
    </TD><TD>

    </TD></TR><TR><TD>Solar water heater: advantages

    • A roof mounted solar water heater doesn’t rely on electricity to provide hot water when the sun is shining. Most solar systems have a backup element, which means that your household will always have hot water regardless of the weather. AGAIN, note the Eskom requirements of a timer that CUTS the electricity supply during peak hours - when people WANT hot water AND when there is no sun to heat the water
    • Solar water heater may come with longer factory warranty Please provide more details.
    • The lifecycle of a solar water heater is regarded as 20+ years again, please provide more details. various of the components are only rated for 10 to 15 years, by their suppliers ....
    • Can produce higher water temperatures than heat pumps this it DOES !! I have personally seen temperatures reaching 80 degrees, and know of systems that actually start boiling. Still systems are often installed without post-mixing valves to protect the end user. Maybe we need to start a separate thread about the post-mixing valves that are only rated to work with 80 degree water (see suppliers data) and OFTEN malfunctions when boiling water is passed through it ....

    Solar water heater: disadvantages

    • High capital upfront investment and installation costs (in comparison to a heat pump in areas with GOOD quality water, otherwise the initial capital costs are the same); as previously stated, costs are now on par, at least the upfront lay out. I still believe with the current pricing that heatpumps "cost of ownership" will be more expensive in the long run
    • The recovery period of a solar system is typically longer than a heat pump;
    • Solar panels can be aesthetically unappealing; sadly so
    • A solar water heater works optimally when the sun shines, if it is overcast, the back-up element kicks in to compensate for the lack of solar energy. The back-up element will operate approximately 10% of the year. Depends on how the timer is set AND how the end user uses hot water - IF the end user insists on a morning shower the element will be needed before morning peak hours to re-heat the water in the geyser.
    • Routine maintenance similar to an electric geyser is needed on a solar water heater, but only on the valves and not on the system itself. Would you please confirm what "routine maintenance" is done on a geyser ? I know of the anodes that can be replaced - yet have not been able to find anybody sells these? What other maintenance ?
    • SWH panels are susceptible to airborne dirt build up from dust, pollution, rain and salt sea spray. These can reduce the effectiveness of the solar radiation collection. Solar tubes may require occasional cleaning for optimal efficiency correct
    • Orientation and positioning of the SWH panels is imperative to maximize the solar radiation collection capabilities. (Travelling on holiday I noticed how many - and there were MANY - solar heating systems in the townships were installed facing SOUTH!!!) NOW, we are getting closer to the MAIN ISSUE - totally incompetent installers !! back to the orientation - if you have a North facing home and you want "hidden panels" then you need to put some thought into the best position for the panels !! Sadly the norm is to find the old geyser, pop through the roof and place the panel, totally ignoring the direction the panels face .....
    • The solar collectors and panels are susceptible to damage from freezing, hail and possible over-pressurisation of the system. add to this the damage caused by the high temperatures associated with a system that is boiling ....
    • the installation may need the roof to be structurally reinforced to carry the additional pinpoint weight loading of both cylinder and panels IMPORTANT !!
    • Consumers must be aware of the difference between a high and low pressure SWH system as this may affect the existing mixer taps within the residence.
    • Effectiveness of SWH systems are dependent on where in the country they are installed (coastal areas receive significantly less annual radiation than the interior regions of the country). bit of a conundrum ... less radiation, thus solar is less effective. SALT in the air reducing the life span of heat pump units ....
    Easy to comment on a nother's input, now it is time for me to put my foot in it ....

    As a mechanical engineer we are sometimes asked by our clients to include a solar/heat pump installation as part of a bigger installation.

    Thus my experience has shown there are two distinct sides to this: Engineering vs the human factor.

    The human factor is a MAJOR stumbling block to solar installations - free hot water so the taps are open longer and then there just is not enough hot water for the rest of the family .... WHEN do people want a bath or shower - after a long hot day at work and/or just before going to work - both when solar cant replenish the heat removed form the system / or when the temperatures start falling and heatpumps are less than optimal ....

    and as long as we keep thinking in term of an electrical geyser that "always" have hot water, people COMPLAIN when these alternate systems dont provide hot water all the time. Now DO remember that when people have these installed in accordance with the Eskom Rebate system timers are installed to keep the back up elements OFF during peak hours, when people WANT hot water ....



    In conclusion:

    PERSONALLY - wont be installing a solar system any time soon, as I shower before going to work and wont make any substantial saving, in fact having done the maths I wont ever pay back the unit in its expected life cycle. IF I do build a new house I would install it though, just wont replace my existing system. If my current geyser bursts ... dont want to go solar, but at the time I will do the maths again.


    For CLIENTS -
    domestic use - SOLAR
    medium sized installations - Heat pump
    Larger installations - Solar combined with heat pump

    these are not clear cut, it all depends on the clients needs, use, and budget - solar combined with heat pump being the ultimate system
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullbar View Post
    Thanks, good info. What brands of solar kit are recommended?
    in our experience it is 10 % "brand" and 90% "installation".


    the best German system in the world installed incorrectly is "worthless". and an entry level system installed CORRECTLY will give years of good service and lead to satisfied customers.


    but as with all things, all too often people go for the cheapest quote - so the profit margin for the installers is so small that many of the top plumbers dont even want to get involved in this.

    the bulk of our technical problems relate to poor installations, or the post mixing valves.

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    It would NOT be advisable to place a heat pump in the roof.

    Heat pumps require good ventilation. Secondly there is a lot of dust in the roof space which will negatively influence the heat pump. Thirdly, you won't be able to clean and rinse the heat pump off in your ceailing.

    A heat pump will also vibrate and cause a lot of noise in the roof.

    Heat pumps work well for high hot water consumption areas.

    Depending on a person's personal needs, one should first decide what your needs are, then decide which system to install.

    Solar systems tend to provide better savings for residential homes, heat pumps provide better savings for larger applications like guest houses etc.

    A retrofit solar geyser would generally cost LESS than a retrofit heat pump. Retrofit meaning conversion of your existing electrical geyser.



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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisF View Post
    <table><tbody><tr><td>
    • The correct placement of heat pumps is essential. To ensure sufficient savings, the heat pump either needs to face north, east or west. ?? Surely this line refers to SOLAR systems.

    </td><td>
    </td></tr><tr><td>
    </td></tr></tbody></table> Thanks for pointing this out. Corrected.

    You are clearly highly biased towards solar panels, which is your prerogative. I have tried consciously to avoid presenting a biased view in the summary as stated under the notes.
    Best regards
    Philip
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisF View Post
    In fact, it might be better to install it under a tiled or metal roof where lots of hot air is trapped. WHAT !! In winter mornings these trapped areas will be too COLD, and the unit WONT work, depending on safeties you might even damage the unit
    A heat pump WILL work, possibly more efficient, possibly less efficient than a solar system (depending on the time of day) - unless Eskom's peak cut-out unit prevents it from working. But then the solar system's backup element will also not be working...

    Cold is relative. There is less energy in -5degC air than 40degC air, but there is still more heat (energy) in -5degC than in -15degC air. Please also note that a heat pump WILL work both in -5degC and in 40degC circumstances. It will most certainly be less efficient in -5degC circumstances but it will work.

    My family consumes most hot water in the evenings when all of us have showers. I thus recon that a solar or heat pump solution for me would be equally effective, unless we have a rainy season in which case I might find myself wishing for a heat pump solution.... But then, during Eskom's (and Pretoria's) rolling blackouts I might find myself wishing for a solar solution.

    One idea that I am playing with (IF I go the heat pump route) is to have the cool air being expelled by the heat pump channeled into my house during summer (not in winter though). This would be a win win situation!! Hot water into my geyser, cool air into my house.

    Decisions, decisions...
    Best regards
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmat1985 View Post
    It would NOT be advisable to place a heat pump in the roof.

    Heat pumps require good ventilation. Secondly there is a lot of dust in the roof space which will negatively influence the heat pump. Thirdly, you won't be able to clean and rinse the heat pump off in your ceailing.

    A heat pump will also vibrate and cause a lot of noise in the roof.

    Heat pumps work well for high hot water consumption areas.
    I beg to differ. The more heat (hot air) a heat pump is exposed to, the more efficient it is (as I understand it) at extracting that heat and pumping that heat into the geyser. I frequently crawl around in my roof space (rodents) and find it MUCH hotter in there than above the roof. There will most certainly be adequate ventilation (In my roof at least) judging by the amount of light that comes into that roof space during the day.

    Yes, there is a lot of dust up there, but its lying on the ceiling, not wafting around in the air. Wind carries the dust into the roof space (proof of ventilation) but then the air settles down allowing the dust to drop out of the air onto the ceiling.

    Please elaborate on the cleaning and rinsing you refer to. Yours is the first reference to that aspect I have come across. That also implies that AC external units also require such cleaning and rinsing. If indeed this is the case then both solar and heat pump solutions require regular cleaning which would put them on an equal foot as far as that aspect is concerned.

    I can see that mounting the heat pump in the roof space using the roof rafters may result in substantial noise coming into the house. The rafters and ceiling boards may actually act like an acoustic amplifier. Mounting it on top of and using internal walls in the roof space would thus be better.

    I was camping at a caravan park where the proprietor had installed a single heat pump for the camp site ablutions (men and ladies). He claimed to often having 30 guests at a time without hot water issues. This lends credibility to your (and others') statement that heat pumps are more suitable for high hot water consumption areas.
    Best regards
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    The rate at which hot air is cooled down by the heat pump is substantial. Therefore inadequate ventilation will negatively influence the efficiency. As the roof space is filled with cold air, the roof will become colder and eventually too cold for the heat pump to function optimal.

    The radiator fins and fan collect dust over time which obstructs airflow through the system. At some point the unit will need to be cleaned. Air cons need to be serviced every 6 months, which include rinsing of the radiator fins.

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    We have been involved with numerous heat pump installations - for medium to larger installations. But untill recently the prices of these units were just too high for domestic use - but as pointed out in my previous posts, we did check the pricing again in December.

    Right now it is just the maintanance issues around a heat pump .....



    As for dust on coils - it totally clogs up the coil !! Now bear in mind for a heat pump the "evaporator coil" (the one wet with condensate) is on the outside - where all the dust is. These coils MUST be washed off regularly.


    we have installed heat pump units inside plant room - with other machinery that gives of heat. Works EXCELLENT while the other machinery gives of heat .... but MAN, when that other machinery does not give of heat !!! one unhappy client !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmat1985 View Post
    The radiator fins and fan collect dust over time which obstructs airflow through the system. At some point the unit will need to be cleaned. Air cons need to be serviced every 6 months, which include rinsing of the radiator fins.
    Thanks for this, clearly mounting the heat pump in the roof space is, for this reason, not a good idea. I will amend the first post accordingly.
    Best regards
    Philip
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    Howzit LR,
    I'm very interested in your process at arriving at a solution.
    I'm down the road from you and am thinking of the same route.
    I'm tending to the Solar tubes piggybacking on my existing geyser.
    Keep the chat going guys
    thanks
    cc
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    I decided to go with a heat pump - for better for worse. R12500 incl installation, rebate and VAT. Still being installed as I type this.

    Contractor wanted 70% deposit up front. I said no can do. I offered to pay 70% on delivery of hardware to my premises. He accepted somewhat reluctantly. I've been bitten twice (big) by deposits.
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    Best regards
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    please keep us posted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt Chaos View Post
    process at arriving at a solution.
    My main reasons for going this route:

    1. Lower initial capital outlay;
    2. faster return on investment (will see about this...);
    3. Stainless steel enclosure;
    4. Changeover switch integrated with Franke HP (not seperate item / additional cost, makes installation a bit more elegant)
    5. More effective delivery mechanism to deliver hot water within the geyser. (This could be retrofitted to the Kwikot geyser I have).
    Best regards
    Philip
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    I also ordered my solar geyser yesterday.
    Francois
    V6 Tuna

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    George
    Age
    62
    Posts
    2,340
    Thanked: 50

    Default

    Video of my HP installation here: http://youtu.be/HuE0jkHYX54
    Best regards
    Philip
    LR: '11 Rangie 5.0 S/C, '01 Disco 2 XS 4.6 V8
    Ford: '19 Ranger 3.2 XLS Manual SuperCab 4x4 (XLT is ergonomic disaster)
    Chevrolet: '70 C10 350ci / 700R4 (4-sp Overdrive) & '59 Apache (Stepside)

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bloemfontein/Centurion
    Age
    55
    Posts
    789
    Thanked: 53

    Default

    I seriously considering a heat pump. So I would like to hear from anyone that has one installed. Is the saving worth it. I think at another 8% for 5 years it must get there.. If the pump lasts 5 years.
    2018 Isuzu DTeq 4x4 DC
    89 DEFENDER V8

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Pretoria
    Age
    40
    Posts
    843
    Thanked: 16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LRwit View Post
    My main reasons for going this route:

    1. Lower initial capital outlay;
    2. faster return on investment (will see about this...);
    3. Stainless steel enclosure;
    4. Changeover switch integrated with Franke HP (not seperate item / additional cost, makes installation a bit more elegant)
    5. More effective delivery mechanism to deliver hot water within the geyser. (This could be retrofitted to the Kwikot geyser I have).
    Hi,

    Was it R12500 after the rebate? What is the heating capacity of your heat pump and what is the warranty?

    Thanks and enjoy your heat pump - or should I rather say, enjoy your savings from the heat pump :-)

    Sent from my GT-P5100 using Tapatalk 2
    Last edited by rmat1985; 2013/03/01 at 11:11 PM.
    Currently own: 2018 Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCI A/T 4x4 Double Cab XLT

    Then followed a 2009 Toyota Prado 4.0V6 (Nice car), after which a 2008 Pajero 3.8 V6 SWB followed (which I will forever miss)
    Fourth 4x4: 2013 Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCI 4x4 Manual double cab
    Third 4x4: 2013 Toyota Fortuner 3.0 D4D 4x4 Manual
    Second 4x4: 2010 Mitsubishi Triton 3.2 Manual 4x4 Double Cab
    First 4x4: 2010 Nissan NP300 Hardbody 2.4 4x4 D/C

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