Making an informed decision





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  1. #1
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    Default Making an informed decision

    This morning an acquaintance showed me his latest acquisition - a DSLR camera with 3 lenses namely 18-55, 25-70 and 70-200.

    He said he wanted to get a 2x converter, but does not understand how it works.

    When I told him that F stops will be halved, and that aperture will have to compensate for less light, I realised that he does not have a cooking clue about the basic principles, and is not interested in taking photos other than on "auto".

    When I showed him my little one (his little one as well as his big one beats my little one in size) and pointed out that that little camera which fits into my shirt pocked has a 25 - 450 lens with vibration reduction, HD video and an auto only operation facility, he intimated that he would have considered a little camera like that instead if only he knew of its capabilities.

    One cannot help but to ask how many DSLR cameras are being sold where a small "bridge" camera will in fact be more appropriate. What is it with people wanting to drag big lenses along? (I am also one of them - carries 4 lenses when the bag goes with)

    Which brings me to the question - will the advancement in technology not perhaps sooner that expected render DSLR cameras obsolete?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poen View Post

    Which brings me to the question - will the advancement in technology not perhaps sooner that expected render DSLR cameras obsolete?
    Probably, who knows......but doubt it in my lifetime

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    It will come down to technology. I think the limitation will come in with the lense ability to focus crystal clear and sharp on a very small, ultra high sensitivity sensor.

    The gap is closing, but there's still a long way to go.
    Sakkie Coetzee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poen View Post
    One cannot help but to ask how many DSLR cameras are being sold where a small "bridge" camera will in fact be more appropriate. What is it with people wanting to drag big lenses along? (I am also one of them - carries 4 lenses when the bag goes with)
    Its called Lens envy. When you have a big SLR camera and you walk past someone with the same camera but a bigger lens and you both silently acknowledge that their lens is better, and you see them get a smug smile.
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    I am one of the uninformed, who is considering a DSLR, as my sony is driving me nuts because I cant get a properly focused photo out of it with close-up shots, and it seems the DSLR will be easier to do so, but 3 lenses no way, one lens going to 125mm will do it for me thx (do you still get those).
    Then I see these new things, they have interchangeble lenses, same size sensors as DSLR but no mirror, any comments on them - expensice though.
    Neil

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    I am also an uninformed DSLR user, BUT and this is a BIG BUT, the mik en druk will never, ever be as fast as a DSLR camera. The time it takes from the moment you druk die groen knoppie tot die foto neem is just to long.

    My 2cents worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poen View Post
    Which brings me to the question - will the advancement in technology not perhaps sooner that expected render DSLR cameras obsolete?

    Yes, I think eventually it will, but to a point. For example, the EOS-M is mirrorless, making it a lot smaller. If you think about it, the mirror and viewfinder were only invented because you couldn't see throught the film without exposing it. Now you can see what's being projected onto the sensor in real time.

    The other advantage of a SLR over smaller cameras, is the size of the sensor. Since most people really won't see or use the quality of "full frame" (i.e. the same as the arbitrarily decided-on 35mm standard for film), over a APS-C sensor (what most novice and semi-pro DSLRs use), that will eventually also not be necessary as technology increases the quality that smaller sensors can produce.

    The only other advantage I can think of, is the lens... two points (1) the ability to change lenses, as a super zoom will never have the quality of a prime (fixed length) lens, and (2) the sheer range of lenses to suit different situations. I don't see this changing. I can't see technology giving us a one-size-fits-all lens that still gives the quality and usability in all situations. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my feeling.

    So in short, due to my last point, my answer would be "no". I think we will just see more mirrorless cameras with interchangeable lenses instead.

    Does that still qualify as a SLR though (Single Lens Reflex)? No, because the mirror and the reflex action it uses to switch the light from the viewfinder to the sensor is gone.
    So we'll end up with "SL" cameras, IMO
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    Mmmm..... size is everything!

    But then it is also being said that what matters is not how much you have, but what you can achieve with the little you got!
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    There's a lot of uninformed comments made above based on bridge cameras of 5 years ago. But I'm not going to start another argument. My FZ200 is virtually instant, and the Leica glass is superior to what you will find in many lower spec DSLR lenses.
    Sakkie Coetzee

    Some people say I have a "short temper"....I see it as swift and assertive reaction to Bull!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkie View Post
    There's a lot of uninformed comments made above based on bridge cameras of 5 years ago. But I'm not going to start another argument. My FZ200 is virtually instant, and the Leica glass is superior to what you will find in many lower spec DSLR lenses.
    You're right Sakkie, because a bridge these days is pretty much indistinguishable from a SLR, except for interchaneagable lenses.

    I have nothing against bridge cameras and agreed with everything you said in the other thread....

    I'm sure your lens is good quality, but it is however, an "all-rounder".
    But when a pro wants to shoot a sports game, requiring a 600mm with an aperture of f.1.4 one day.... then a 50mm prime lens for perfect quality, for shooting a supermodel portrait for the cover of Vogue magazine the next day, he's not going to buy two cameras. So therefore I don't think the lens interchangeability will ever go away.
    So that, in my opinion, is why cameras with interchangeable lenses will never go away (in answer to the original question).
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    ja, nee ....


    The P&S cameras of today IS better than many of the DSLR camreas of 3 or 4 years back.

    BUT, let's no loose track of how the upper end DSLR camera's has improved either !!


    Let's just say the mileposts are continually moving.


    the current camera buyers have so many more options - and most new users are CLUELESS to most of these options .... back to Poens opening line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poen View Post
    will the advancement in technology not perhaps sooner that expected render DSLR cameras obsolete?
    To analyse your question... people have not thought about what DSLR actually means.

    Everyone mentions lens interchangability... but this is NOT what DSLR means...

    When looked at in the true context and meaning, DSLR will be obsolete in 10 years.
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    I am a bit confused at the terms being used here.

    To me:

    A Point and Shoot or Muk en Druk is anything with a lens that is fixed to the camera that cant be changed for anything else. Ranging form your el cheapo's to relatively pricey SuperZooms with decent optics and high speed electronics. Focus and light measurements are done from the image on the CCD sensor signal, just like a DSLR in Liveview mode.

    A bridge camera is a P&S technology camera but with interchangeable lenses but it is not a Single Lens Reflex Camera. A sort of hybrid.

    A DSLR is what the name says. A Digital Single Lens Reflex Camera. Looking thru the viewfinder, focus and light measurments are done thru the lens via a mirror. When you push the trigger the mirror moves out of the way instantly and the image is captured by a CCD sensor.

    What am I missing here.
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    Fluffy I do believe the term bridge camera is actually aimed at FIXED lens cameras with super zoom, and has many of the functions/adjustments of DSLR cameras.

    BUT this term is at best a VERY grey area !


    I do believe all camera bodies with interchangeable lenses are either DSLR or mirror less cameras. Yet, there will be some models out there that DONT have the DSLR function, but can swop out lense. just further blurring the lines between these so called types of cameras ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisF View Post
    Fluffy I do believe the term bridge camera is actually aimed at FIXED lens cameras with super zoom, and has many of the functions/adjustments of DSLR cameras.

    BUT this term is at best a VERY grey area !


    I do believe all camera bodies with interchangeable lenses are either DSLR or mirror less cameras. Yet, there will be some models out there that DONT have the DSLR function, but can swop out lense. just further blurring the lines between these so called types of cameras ....
    I think that is what I said.

    A bridge is just that, a bridge between a P$S (even high end super zooms) and a DSLR.

    Basically a high end mirror less camera that you can change lenses on.
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    Fluffy the area between bridge and DSLRs is getting greyer, but P&S or digicams have small sensors, about the size of your small finger nail. All of them that I'm aware of have fixed lenses.

    The emerging market is the so called mirrorless cameras, of which the 4/3 system is probably the market leader at the moment by a small margin. These have a much larger sensor, just smaller than the typical 1.5crop of the typical DSLR. In fact Olympus originally marketed the 4/3 system as a traditional DSLR, but always lost out on noise due to smaller real estate. These come in interchangeable lens and fixed lens. They have far superior noise characteristics to the P&S, I'm guessing a bit here, but probably about 6 stops advantage. Until just recently they lagged DSLR performance wrt focus speed, but on sensor phase detection and better contrast detection algorithms have significantly closed the gap.

    As for mirrors becoming obsolete, I hope not. I spend 10 hours a day looking at an LCD, I sure don't want to do it when I'm out in the bush. At the bottom end of the market it's inevitable with the push on price reduction.

    I wander how much longer the camera makers can continue the advance. They're all facing flat markets and diminishing margins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceB View Post
    Fluffy the area between bridge and DSLRs is getting greyer, but P&S or digicams have small sensors, about the size of your small finger nail. All of them that I'm aware of have fixed lenses.

    The emerging market is the so called mirrorless cameras, of which the 4/3 system is probably the market leader at the moment by a small margin. These have a much larger sensor, just smaller than the typical 1.5crop of the typical DSLR. In fact Olympus originally marketed the 4/3 system as a traditional DSLR, but always lost out on noise due to smaller real estate. These come in interchangeable lens and fixed lens. They have far superior noise characteristics to the P&S, I'm guessing a bit here, but probably about 6 stops advantage. Until just recently they lagged DSLR performance wrt focus speed, but on sensor phase detection and better contrast detection algorithms have significantly closed the gap.

    As for mirrors becoming obsolete, I hope not. I spend 10 hours a day looking at an LCD, I sure don't want to do it when I'm out in the bush. At the bottom end of the market it's inevitable with the push on price reduction.

    I wander how much longer the camera makers can continue the advance. They're all facing flat markets and diminishing margins.

    Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner
    Thats basicaly how I see it. A bridge is a non SLR (Mirrorless camera) with decent sensor and interchangeable lenses. Not a superzoom as we know them.

    As regards advances, maybe the camera makers are facing the 747 brick wall phenomina.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poen View Post
    This morning an acquaintance showed me his latest acquisition - a DSLR camera with 3 lenses namely 18-55, 25-70 and 70-200.

    He said he wanted to get a 2x converter, but does not understand how it works.

    When I told him that F stops will be halved, and that aperture will have to compensate for less light, I realised that he does not have a cooking clue about the basic principles, and is not interested in taking photos other than on "auto".

    When I showed him my little one (his little one as well as his big one beats my little one in size) and pointed out that that little camera which fits into my shirt pocked has a 25 - 450 lens with vibration reduction, HD video and an auto only operation facility, he intimated that he would have considered a little camera like that instead if only he knew of its capabilities.

    One cannot help but to ask how many DSLR cameras are being sold where a small "bridge" camera will in fact be more appropriate. What is it with people wanting to drag big lenses along? (I am also one of them - carries 4 lenses when the bag goes with)

    Which brings me to the question - will the advancement in technology not perhaps sooner that expected render DSLR cameras obsolete?
    Hi Poen
    People drag big lens's along when you attempt to get the clearest/sharpest shops you can with hopefully a smooth bokeh etc.Also i think its fair to say that the "Big" lens's" have superior focusing characteristics in low light etc.
    Perhaps a beginner to photography should be encouraged to first start out with one of the "Bridge/p&s cameras to test his real interest and then take it from there.
    I also assume you meant 24-70 and not a 25-70

    I suspect "SimonB" is waiting in the wings to trounce me??

    All in good spirit

    Regards
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poen View Post
    ..., I realised that he does not have a cooking clue about the basic principles, and is not interested in taking photos other than on "auto"...
    Very much supports my view that DSLRs are one of the marketing coups of the decade. Big toy, must have.

    In answer to your question, I think the ground swell to DSLR will die off, but I doubt DSLRs (which I understand to be based on 2 key elements: optical thru the lens view finder & interchangeable lens) will become obsolete. Enthusiasts and pros will continue to use them. Super-zooms and MIL cameras will make huge inroads as technology improves and size reduces. But there is just something more appealling to looking at the real light coming through an view finder versus an LCD or EVF.

    As far as sensor size is concerned, again larger sensors will continue to have several advantages, typically DOF render, ISO quality and dynamic range. And large sensors will dictate large lenses at which point the size of the camera to hold it is sometimes an advantage. And large extreme range zooms just don't cut it, or are outrageously expensive.

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    Last edited by KevinR; 2012/12/06 at 06:59 PM.
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    The mistake I made, was to think this thread is the informed decision for an amateur photography enthusiast.

    It is not.

    It is for the average Joe Soap who wants a really nice camera.

    I would STILL say get an entry level DSLR body, stick a lens like the Tamron 18-270 on, and you are set for a very long time.

    (I want to take Sakkie on, but before I do that I need to educate myself and go and test that FZ200.)

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