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  #1551  
Old 07-01-14, 12:21 PM
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Groot EISH!!

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  #1552  
Old 07-01-14, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ArthurB View Post
@T42

Correct yes, they dont use latest enatis info to verify correctness when generating invoices, it could happen that the enatis is only really accessible to them as a tool to punish you in combination with AARTO after you did not pay toll fees

Hence my feeling that with the traffic volumes being so high , its too much effort to check enatis for the facts before billing, and therefore they use fineprint that puts ALL the onus onto you no matter who drove and what circuimstances persisted
the gumment has done a lot of putting all the onus on us.take skills development.and other acts.
this time i think its gone too far

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  #1553  
Old 07-01-14, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ArthurB View Post
@T42

, and therefore they use fineprint that puts ALL the onus onto you no matter who drove and what circuimstances persisted
Exactly, once you sign on the dotted line all that fine print is agreed to.

Personally I simply don't trust that the potential mistakes and cloned number plates etc etc are worth the extra few bucks that I lose in discounts when I eventually get my invoice verify it correct and then pay the amount I owe.

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  #1554  
Old 07-01-14, 12:33 PM
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maybe enatis is at fault, and now we will start to hear just how many vehicles are incorrectly registered
O dear, imagine that

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  #1555  
Old 07-01-14, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ColeGP View Post
@ waz
etag belongs to the vehicle, thats why you can also go the vehicle number plate route (I believe) so the proxy of the company should do the registration.
Thanks, you've just confirmed what I thought. I just hope its correct though.

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  #1556  
Old 07-01-14, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian1 View Post
Exactly, once you sign on the dotted line all that fine print is agreed to.

Personally I simply don't trust that the potential mistakes and cloned number plates etc etc are worth the extra few bucks that I lose in discounts when I eventually get my invoice verify it correct and then pay the amount I owe.
I have been using the Bakwena e-tags on several different vehicles since their inception many years ago. I have linked these Bakwena e-tags to the new e-toll system, and have been checking their system for accuracy against my use of the e-toll roads.

I have never queried any of the Bakwena invoices to date, and since 3 Dec their records of the e-toll roads usage are also 100% in line with mine.

It is natural to expect errors in any newly implemented system, but I think that the errors (such as sending invoices by SMS to dead people) are actually a rather small % compared to the volume of billing that must take place with registered e-tags.

For the record: I also do not like paying tolls, and I also would prefer for the costs of new roads to be recovered via the fuel levy. I am using the e-tags for the sake of convenience and to get the maximum discount with minimal aggravation and effort on my side. This decision was based on my positive experience with Sanral's management of the Bakwena e-tags and the 100% billing accuracy over several years. I will continue to do so until the courts finally decide on the legality of the e-toll system as it is currently implemented and the law as it stands now is revised.

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  #1557  
Old 07-01-14, 01:58 PM
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@Brian1

Even when you have not even signed on the dotted line, they assume the onus is on you like the Limpopo family who does not own an Xtrail

Arrogance!

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  #1558  
Old 07-01-14, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Blue Shirt View Post
I have been using the Bakwena e-tags on several different vehicles since their inception many years ago. I have linked these Bakwena e-tags to the new e-toll system, and have been checking their system for accuracy against my use of the e-toll roads.

I have never queried any of the Bakwena invoices to date, and since 3 Dec their records of the e-toll roads usage are also 100% in line with mine.

It is natural to expect errors in any newly implemented system, but I think that the errors (such as sending invoices by SMS to dead people) are actually a rather small % compared to the volume of billing that must take place with registered e-tags.

For the record: I also do not like paying tolls, and I also would prefer for the costs of new roads to be recovered via the fuel levy. I am using the e-tags for the sake of convenience and to get the maximum discount with minimal aggravation and effort on my side. This decision was based on my positive experience with Sanral's management of the Bakwena e-tags and the 100% billing accuracy over several years. I will continue to do so until the courts finally decide on the legality of the e-toll system as it is currently implemented and the law as it stands now is revised.
+1 ... Couldn't have said it better

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  #1559  
Old 07-01-14, 02:18 PM
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So you don't like paying etolls and you don't agree to the methods of recovery, but its just easier to get a tag than to stand up for something?

Great, thanks for the help in the fight.
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  #1560  
Old 07-01-14, 02:22 PM
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Bad verry bad. Is this true i wonder

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  #1561  
Old 07-01-14, 02:29 PM
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Bad verry bad. Is this true i wonder
Even if it planted another seed for hackers... perhaps?

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  #1562  
Old 07-01-14, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Adam Stander View Post
So you don't like paying etolls and you don't agree to the methods of recovery, but its just easier to get a tag than to stand up for something?

Great, thanks for the help in the fight.
Its my pleasure.

Did you actually read the last sentence in my "for the record" paragraph?

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  #1563  
Old 07-01-14, 02:35 PM
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And yet people argue here that Oom Jan farming wheat in die Boland with a fuel bill of over a R100K a month should pay a fuel levy so that you don't have to pay tolls on a road that you use and he has never seen.

Fooitog.
Jy maak 'n punt. Net so paar issues met die idee:
  1. Oom Ja se pad (al is dit nou maar net die stofpad wat slegs elke 6 mnde geskraap word) is definitief baie duurder as sy R100k se bydrae. Daar's werklik baie min ander mense wat sy pad ook ry, so hy word gesponsor.
  2. Oom Jan koop sy diesel van die co-op af, teen a helse discount - due to volume (hy kry eintlik spam van die reps wat vir hom wil oorwen na BP/Caltex/Sasol/ens.). Kyk watse gemors jy gaan kry as jy 'n 5000L tenk in jou agterplaas gaan sit in 'n stadsgebied - jy sal jou huis moet registreer as a vulstasie - Oom Jan kan enige ou tenk neersit waar hy wil sonder enige hassle.
  3. Levies is al klaar ongelyk verdeel oor die land. Diesel is 'n bietjie moeilik om te proove, siende die prys nie vasgemaak is nie. Maar petrol is 'n groot eye-opener: Ry van Gauteng na die OosKaap en sien hoe die prys van petrol ewe skielik drop! Dis omdat levies streeks gebonde is. Hoe moeilik is dit nou om slegs levies te verhoog in die gebied waar die geld gebruik gaan word?
  4. Om toll in te vorder meen daar moet ekstra infrastruktuur (gatries / gates) gebou word en running-kosts (salarisse / elec. / admin / posgeld / service centre / etc.). Die goed is nie nodig vir 'n verhoging in levies nie, so ons almal betaal meer om die ekstra useless goed af te betaal sodat ons toll geld kan betaal instede van levies.
So ja, dis onregverdig om van Oom Jan te verwag om die res van SA te sponsor. Maar dis meer onregverdig om die hele gebied se bevolking te vra om meer te betaal as wat eintlik nodig was. Veral as daai geld land-uit gaan, dit maak die hele SA armer (insluitend die eind-koper van Oom Jan se koring).

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  #1564  
Old 07-01-14, 02:46 PM
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n ander ding
Gauteng stoot meer geld in ons land se ekonomie in as enige ander gedeelte en all daai geld word nie hier ge spandeer nie
en Oom Jan se plaas se goedere word verspry en verkoop in Gauteng
so die res van die land trek voordeel uit Gauteng uit

Hoekom kan Oom Jan dan nie n bietjie n bydra maak om die belangerike paaie op te gradeer nie

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  #1565  
Old 07-01-14, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by irneb View Post
Jy maak 'n punt. Net so paar issues met die idee:
  1. Oom Ja se pad (al is dit nou maar net die stofpad wat slegs elke 6 mnde geskraap word) is definitief baie duurder as sy R100k se bydrae. Daar's werklik baie min ander mense wat sy pad ook ry, so hy word gesponsor.
  2. Oom Jan koop sy diesel van die co-op af, teen a helse discount - due to volume (hy kry eintlik spam van die reps wat vir hom wil oorwen na BP/Caltex/Sasol/ens.). Kyk watse gemors jy gaan kry as jy 'n 5000L tenk in jou agterplaas gaan sit in 'n stadsgebied - jy sal jou huis moet registreer as a vulstasie - Oom Jan kan enige ou tenk neersit waar hy wil sonder enige hassle.
  3. Levies is al klaar ongelyk verdeel oor die land. Diesel is 'n bietjie moeilik om te proove, siende die prys nie vasgemaak is nie. Maar petrol is 'n groot eye-opener: Ry van Gauteng na die OosKaap en sien hoe die prys van petrol ewe skielik drop! Dis omdat levies streeks gebonde is. Hoe moeilik is dit nou om slegs levies te verhoog in die gebied waar die geld gebruik gaan word?
  4. Om toll in te vorder meen daar moet ekstra infrastruktuur (gatries / gates) gebou word en running-kosts (salarisse / elec. / admin / posgeld / service centre / etc.). Die goed is nie nodig vir 'n verhoging in levies nie, so ons almal betaal meer om die ekstra useless goed af te betaal sodat ons toll geld kan betaal instede van levies.
So ja, dis onregverdig om van Oom Jan te verwag om die res van SA te sponsor. Maar dis meer onregverdig om die hele gebied se bevolking te vra om meer te betaal as wat eintlik nodig was. Veral as daai geld land-uit gaan, dit maak die hele SA armer (insluitend die eind-koper van Oom Jan se koring).
Die verskil in die brandstofpryse tussen die binneland en kusgebiede word bepaal deur die afstand tussen die hawes waar ru-olie die land binnekom en die verkooppunt van die brandstof. Dit het niks met padheffings te doen nie.

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  #1566  
Old 07-01-14, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Adam Stander View Post
So you don't like paying etolls and you don't agree to the methods of recovery, but its just easier to get a tag than to stand up for something?

Great, thanks for the help in the fight.
Adam, not everyone has the same opinion as you regarding e-toll. As in dicated in my earlier threads, I also got registered and an e-tag for the sake of convenience - thereby not endorsing the way in which it was introduced in your world.

But face it brother, whether you like it or not, but in the end you are going to cough up and probably at the highest price!.

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  #1567  
Old 07-01-14, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ThysleRoux View Post
Die verskil in die brandstofpryse tussen die binneland en kusgebiede word bepaal deur die afstand tussen die hawes waar ru-olie die land binnekom en die verkooppunt van die brandstof. Dit het niks met padheffings te doen nie.
Correct, transport and distribution costs.

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  #1568  
Old 07-01-14, 02:58 PM
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Correct, transport and distribution costs.
Ok, so now the distribution cost to Gauteng is going to be higher due to E-tolls, so we are going to end up paying more for fuel anyway.

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  #1569  
Old 07-01-14, 03:03 PM
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Ok, so now the distribution cost to Gauteng is going to be higher due to E-tolls, so we are going to end up paying more for fuel anyway.
I am waiting for somebody to say the the price of fuel all over the country should be the same so that Oom Jan on his wheat farm can subsidise the cost of fuel in Gauteng because Gauteng generates more money and pays more tax than other provinces.

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  #1570  
Old 07-01-14, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
the price of fuel all over the country should be the same so that Oom Jan on his wheat farm can subsidise the cost of fuel in Gauteng because Gauteng generates more money and pays more tax than other provinces.
Good idea

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  #1571  
Old 07-01-14, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackie View Post
Adam, not everyone has the same opinion as you regarding e-toll. As in dicated in my earlier threads, I also got registered and an e-tag for the sake of convenience - thereby not endorsing the way in which it was introduced in your world.

But face it brother, whether you like it or not, but in the end you are going to cough up and probably at the highest price!.

Blackie
We have the same opinion. We both don't like paying tolls and we don't like the way they get the money.
But, what we don't have is the same attitute in fighting it.
Your way: it's going to happen.
My way: I don't know, but I'm going to try my utmost.
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  #1572  
Old 07-01-14, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ThysleRoux View Post
Die verskil in die brandstofpryse tussen die binneland en kusgebiede word bepaal deur die afstand tussen die hawes waar ru-olie die land binnekom en die verkooppunt van die brandstof. Dit het niks met padheffings te doen nie.
Goeie punt dankie! Nie geweet nie. Maar dit sou nogal sin maak sou dit nie?

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Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
I am waiting for somebody to say the the price of fuel all over the country should be the same so that Oom Jan on his wheat farm can subsidise the cost of fuel in Gauteng because Gauteng generates more money and pays more tax than other provinces.
Nooooo! Please!

My points in my previous post was this:
  1. It's already an inefficient / unequal sponsorship between people living in different parts of SA.
  2. There are various channels which could easily be priced differently to make this inequality less pronounced. Co-op / rural bulk sales could easily be made exempt from some of the levies - much less admin than the toll system.
  3. Though I didn't have the correct info: It would be a lot simpler to administer a different levy for each separate filling station than to squeeze blood from stones like they're trying with the etoll.
  4. The inefficiencies of tolling makes it near impracticable. Even if it's done as efficiently as possible, tolling is much more wasteful than a change in the tax rate for specific filling stations.
With those 4 points it should be clear that Oom Jan would be better off if some equitable decision can be made to levy him to a lesser extent through the co-op/bulk sales. While also ensuring that those using the new / improved roads pay the bulk of the expense instead of spreading it to the people who are not using it. But most importantly keeping waste to a minimum so that the entire SA population has more wealth - which benefits everyone including Oom Jan who would otherwise have less sales of his produce.

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  #1573  
Old 07-01-14, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by irneb View Post
Goeie punt dankie! Nie geweet nie. Maar dit sou nogal sin maak sou dit nie?

Nooooo! Please!

My points in my previous post was this:
  1. It's already an inefficient / unequal sponsorship between people living in different parts of SA.
  2. There are various channels which could easily be priced differently to make this inequality less pronounced. Co-op / rural bulk sales could easily be made exempt from some of the levies - much less admin than the toll system.
  3. Though I didn't have the correct info: It would be a lot simpler to administer a different levy for each separate filling station than to squeeze blood from stones like they're trying with the etoll.
  4. The inefficiencies of tolling makes it near impracticable. Even if it's done as efficiently as possible, tolling is much more wasteful than a change in the tax rate for specific filling stations.
With those 4 points it should be clear that Oom Jan would be better off if some equitable decision can be made to levy him to a lesser extent through the co-op/bulk sales. While also ensuring that those using the new / improved roads pay the bulk of the expense instead of spreading it to the people who are not using it. But most importantly keeping waste to a minimum so that the entire SA population has more wealth - which benefits everyone including Oom Jan who would otherwise have less sales of his produce.
Not disputing your points, just saying.

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And a Trustworthy Appliance that I absolutely love!

The nice thing about FRIDAYS, its only two more days until MONDAY.

People that know me know that I skrik vir niks, except for SWAMBO and slide slopes, and deep sand and mud and inclines and declines and ruts and axle twisters and mall pavements.

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  #1574  
Old 07-01-14, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Adam Stander View Post
We have the same opinion. We both don't like paying tolls and we don't like the way they get the money.
But, what we don't have is the same attitute in fighting it.
Your way: it's going to happen. It has happened already. The law has been signed and implemented. Paying for it with an e-tag or driving e-tag-less is not going to change that situation. The only difference is I get the discount and less heartburn.
My way: I don't know, but I'm going to try my utmost.
See above.

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  #1575  
Old 07-01-14, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
Not disputing your points, just saying.
Thought something like that!

Unfortunately "Die koel is deur die kerk". We're now stuck with having to pay for some money-grabbing legislator's back-hand deal.

And more unfortunately I think the following will transpire in the coming years: As is exampled by other countries' attempts at similar tolling failing dismally to even come close to paying for their intended purpose - the etoll will be found to not cut the mustard. We'll fall behind on the repayments, necessitating the government to step in in increase the fuel tax anyway.

Only now it will be a situation of jerk-reactions making exactly what you mentioned about Oom Jan happen. Most probably only much worse as it will only be done once we're already in the bottom of the long-drop trying to claw our way back out.

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  #1576  
Old 07-01-14, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irneb View Post
We're now stuck with having to pay for some money-grabbing legislator's back-hand deal.
I was just starting to agree with your thinking, when you posted the above.

Where did you find evidence of this? Please share with us!

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  #1577  
Old 07-01-14, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Providing clarity regarding what it says are the most common issues raised in the last few days, Sanral says:

1. How can unregistered users establish how much they owe?
Unregistered users can see their transactions on the Sanral Web site under the "Manage my VPC Account" tab.
This does not mean they are registering for e-tolls, but only that they want to view their overdue e-toll transactions, using their own security logon details. Should they not want to do this, they can view their transactions under "Check Violations" (top of manage VPC account page) by entering their South African identity number and vehicle licence plate number.
Also, they can phone our call centre or visit our customer service centres to inquire about their overdue amounts.

2. How can payment be made?
Payment can be made using the SMS reference or motorists can phone the call centre and will be given the correct VPC reference. E-mailed invoices also display the VPC account number.
Payment can be made by credit card, debit order, EFT or over the counter at any Sanral customer service centre.

3. Why would a person whose vehicle has never passed under a gantry get an SMS that they owe e-toll fees?
This could be a cloned vehicle. We urge such motorists to please report the incident so Sanral can flag this as a vehicle of special interest and investigate. If you receive an SMS message and have not used the Gauteng road network, please call the call centre so we may check our records.

4. Many queries are received regarding the value of the invoices as being incorrect. Why is this so?
The tariff, as stipulated in the gazette, will be higher after the grace period of seven days. Alternate user tariffs (which are three times higher) apply to road users who are in violation. This is the value that is invoiced. However, if you pay within 30 days, you will receive a discount and a credit note for the balance.
Above from http://www.itweb.co.za/index.php?opt...eous-invoicing

I just love the last point. You must first pay full amount and then you get discount (as entitled if paid within timeframe given ) as a credit note.
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  #1578  
Old 07-01-14, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irneb View Post
Thought something like that!

Unfortunately "Die koel is deur die kerk". We're now stuck with having to pay for some money-grabbing legislator's back-hand deal.

And more unfortunately I think the following will transpire in the coming years: As is exampled by other countries' attempts at similar tolling failing dismally to even come close to paying for their intended purpose - the etoll will be found to not cut the mustard. We'll fall behind on the repayments, necessitating the government to step in in increase the fuel tax anyway.

Only now it will be a situation of jerk-reactions making exactly what you mentioned about Oom Jan happen. Most probably only much worse as it will only be done once we're already in the bottom of the long-drop trying to claw our way back out.
My personal opinion, it's going to work.

Why? Because there will be enough people with tags to make it work.

How are they going to achieve that?

1/ By relying on the majority of frequent users to conform and buy tags.

2/ By making it cheaper and easier to use tags as opposed to not and catch some of the thrashing fish.

3/ By focused harassment and intimidation of all the remaining thrashing fish to conform, with or without tags.

All the fish are already in the net. Some jumped in, some swam in reluctantly, the others are still thrashing about, but make no mistake they are all in the net.

Once the net is nice and full, they will up the toll fees.

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Last edited by Fluffy; 07-01-14 at 04:38 PM.
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  #1579  
Old 07-01-14, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eJunior View Post
I was just starting to agree with your thinking, when you posted the above.

Where did you find evidence of this? Please share with us!
I wish I could. Unfortunately it's just my feeling of the matter.

My reasoning: If the decision was made to the best interest of the country as a whole then similar thoughts would have cropped up to the decision makers as per my previous posts. In which case it would have transpired that tolling is a no-go-zone, especially as examples throughout the world has proven its dismal track record.

Thus there are 2 answers to this conundrum of "Why did they decide to go with this proven-to-be-the-most-wrong decision"?
  1. They're idiots AND incompetent lazy guys/gals not doing their homework; or
  2. They had some other incentive - i.e. personal gain.
So I thought the least derogatory one is probably true ... though I might be wrong

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  #1580  
Old 07-01-14, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
Once the net is nice and full, they will up the toll fees.
Yup...hence the reason we are not allowed to stop thrashing

Freeeeeedooommmmm (done in a scottish accent aka Mel Gibbson )

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  #1581  
Old 07-01-14, 05:35 PM
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Vulnerability on e-toll website

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthre...VULNERABILITY?

http://m.news24.com/news24/MyNews24/...-info-20140107

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  #1582  
Old 07-01-14, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
Correct, transport and distribution costs.
What about Sasol that is refined in Mpumalanga

Chris
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  #1583  
Old 07-01-14, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by astoltz View Post
Here is the YouTube link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cacn2vRWzF8

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  #1584  
Old 07-01-14, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eJunior View Post
I was just starting to agree with your thinking, when you posted the above.

Where did you find evidence of this? Please share with us!
4e, you come across as very intelligent.. Please read this: http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/artic...y-same-actors/

...

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  #1585  
Old 07-01-14, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eJunior View Post
Where did you find evidence of this? Please share with us!
Was just thinking about your question here. Perhaps I misunderstood it - i.e. you weren't pointing out that there's no evidence of back-handers. Rather you were purporting that it's not something which has already been built & contracted for. If so, then I guess I saw some weird stuff that doesn't really exist hanging over the N1/N3/other roads in and around Gauteng.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pblaauw View Post
4e, you come across as very intelligent.. Please read this: http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/artic...y-same-actors/

...
Wow ... does put some extra food for thought in my reasoning!

If this is correct (i.e. I was also correct in my reasoning that some back-hand-deal happened) at least it means that the decision makers aren't simply rolling a dice. There is "some" thought process even if it's only for personal enrichment - IMO that's preferable to making decisions by throwing darts at post-it-notes. Though obviously I'd prefer my government actually trying to make good decisions for me and my fellow countrymen instead of themselves.

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  #1586  
Old 07-01-14, 06:40 PM
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Nog n manier van betaal
Click image for larger version

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  #1587  
Old 07-01-14, 06:44 PM
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My personal reasons for opposing E-Toll:

1.) The original budget was R5 billion, but over R20 billion was spent - why?
2.) The contractors colluded to fix prices and a massive fine ( R1,5 billion) was handed out by the Competition Commission earlier this year - where has this fine gone? And why was it not given to Sanral to reduce the debt and burden on the economy?
3.) Why was the most inefficient collection system approved? Why will it cost more to collect the tolls than it cost to actually construct the roads?
4.) Why will Sanral and Government not reveal who the shareholders are in the Austrian holding company? And then by implication who benefits…
5.) Why is Sanral resorting to illegal collection methods? Surely if everything was above board, this would not be necessary?

I have no problem with the user pays principle. I do however have a problem when the only shop in town is choosing to buy it's product from the most expensive and insufficient supplier and then putting a gun to my head and saying: "Pay or else!". Especially when government is the only shareholder and legislates that no other shop may operate there!

This is for me a moral issue. I have a problem with paying for incompetence and greed. From everything that has been published in the media, but more so from Sanral's absolutely arrogant stance, I believe we are being raped by our government. However, in law it can only be rape if you say "no"... The moment you say "yes", it becomes consensual…

That is exactly what Sanral's contract does. The moment you sign their contract, you agree to their terms and the burden of proof shifts onto you - in effect this is their "yes". If however you are unregistered, the burden of proof remains with Sanral. They have to prove you used their roads, before you have to pay. If they do prove so sufficiently, then you are currently obliged to pay, but if they don't there is nothing they can do. No court will find you guilty of a criminal offense without sufficient proof (and this burden is "beyond reasonable doubt" - not an easy onus).

But if you signed the contract, they don't need proof - you agree in a contract that they are right and you are wrong. And if you disagree you must prove it (sorry, ArthurB)… That is why I am still unregistered...
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  #1588  
Old 07-01-14, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisLab View Post
What about Sasol that is refined in Mpumalanga

Chris
Means nothing.

If you want to really discuss SASOL fuel pricing.

Why is it linked to the price of Brent Crude and the exchange rate.

WHOLE different debate.

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The nice thing about FRIDAYS, its only two more days until MONDAY.

People that know me know that I skrik vir niks, except for SWAMBO and slide slopes, and deep sand and mud and inclines and declines and ruts and axle twisters and mall pavements.

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  #1589  
Old 07-01-14, 06:54 PM
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P.S. And once they have satisfactorily proven I have used all the gantries, I will query my invoice in Afrikaans - ons betaal mos minder volgens die "Government Koerant"…
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  #1590  
Old 07-01-14, 07:03 PM
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From what I can see, the only possible good side of tolling is to "try" and reduce congestion. Here's a description of the theroy: http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications...p_prim4_04.htm

I.e. once a road becomes congested the usual rules of supply/demand doesn't make for efficient use thereof. People see the cost of using the road only in their own expense, not the entire society's expense. Though I'm a bit against that idea - for me I do consider congestion and try to only use the roads at times where I won't spend hours instead of minutes (I consider my time wasted as even more expensive than the extra fuel burnt for driving at 3km/h instead of 120).

But even if I could ignore that (and assume that I'm an exception), the 3rd portion of that page (titled "Variability in Demand and Pricing") raises another point - quite a prerequisite for the theory to actually work properly. Namely the toll needs to adjust according to the congestion at the time, otherwise a fixed toll throughout the day actually has a detrimental effect on congestion. This might perhaps be possible with the eToll system, but from what I've seen (i.e. painted boards with the tariffs instead of electronic changing at a moment's notice) this will not be the case.

So even if the congestion card is played, the current eToll system makes no sense.

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  #1591  
Old 07-01-14, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taxi Basher View Post
My personal reasons for opposing E-Toll:

1.) The original budget was R5 billion, but over R20 billion was spent - why?
2.) The contractors colluded to fix prices and a massive fine ( R1,5 billion) was handed out by the Competition Commission earlier this year - where has this fine gone? And why was it not given to Sanral to reduce the debt and burden on the economy?
3.) Why was the most inefficient collection system approved? Why will it cost more to collect the tolls than it cost to actually construct the roads?
4.) Why will Sanral and Government not reveal who the shareholders are in the Austrian holding company? And then by implication who benefits…
5.) Why is Sanral resorting to illegal collection methods? Surely if everything was above board, this would not be necessary?

I have no problem with the user pays principle. I do however have a problem when the only shop in town is choosing to buy it's product from the most expensive and insufficient supplier and then putting a gun to my head and saying: "Pay or else!". Especially when government is the only shareholder and legislates that no other shop may operate there!

This is for me a moral issue. I have a problem with paying for incompetence and greed. From everything that has been published in the media, but more so from Sanral's absolutely arrogant stance, I believe we are being raped by our government. However, in law it can only be rape if you say "no"... The moment you say "yes", it becomes consensual…

That is exactly what Sanral's contract does. The moment you sign their contract, you agree to their terms and the burden of proof shifts onto you - in effect this is their "yes". If however you are unregistered, the burden of proof remains with Sanral. They have to prove you used their roads, before you have to pay. If they do prove so sufficiently, then you are currently obliged to pay, but if they don't there is nothing they can do. No court will find you guilty of a criminal offense without sufficient proof (and this burden is "beyond reasonable doubt" - not an easy onus).

But if you signed the contract, they don't need proof - you agree in a contract that they are right and you are wrong. And if you disagree you must prove it (sorry, ArthurB)… That is why I am still unregistered...
I have one more "WHY" for you.

Why does your post contain so many incorrect, unabstantiated claims and allegations, urban legend, emotional, tail thrashing, threatening, and criminal accusations points.

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Range Rover 4.6 HSE P38 (Die Rooi Gevaar)
Jeep Rubicon (BuzzBee - The Yellow Peril)
And a Trustworthy Appliance that I absolutely love!

The nice thing about FRIDAYS, its only two more days until MONDAY.

People that know me know that I skrik vir niks, except for SWAMBO and slide slopes, and deep sand and mud and inclines and declines and ruts and axle twisters and mall pavements.


Last edited by Fluffy; 07-01-14 at 07:11 PM.
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  #1592  
Old 07-01-14, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam stander View Post
so you don't like paying etolls and you don't agree to the methods of recovery, but its just easier to get a tag than to stand up for something?

Great, thanks for the help in the fight.

Last edited by Celesti; 07-01-14 at 07:17 PM.
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  #1593  
Old 07-01-14, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
Means nothing.

If you want to really discuss SASOL fuel pricing.

Why is it linked to the price of Brent Crude and the exchange rate.

WHOLE different debate.
Yes Keith I know it is different and it belongs to the previous Nationalist government and that when it was started with our tax money the promise was that it would save us money and make us self sufficient on the fuel side and that the price would eventually come down.
All the different suppliers were forced to have at least one Sasol pump on their driveway and it was sold for the same price as the other brands.
We are still waiting for all the good things that were promised us.
My question still remains: why should we pay the same price for Sasol as for BP

Chris.
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  #1594  
Old 07-01-14, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisLab View Post
My question still remains: why should we pay the same price for Sasol as for BP
Same reason you have to pay the same price for BP as you do for Caltex: Because gov says so! They're the boss, they make the rules, they break them when it suits their purpose, they prosecute you when you don't comply ... Democracy? ... ... what a farce!

But Fluffy's got a point ... it is a debate for another thread ... though the reasons behind it is most probably the same as the reasons behind the eToll.

Edit: Something my Economics professor said: "Any government, be they despots, feudal lords, royalty, socialist, democrats or whatever other ***fill in blank name here*** they want to call themselves are nothing more than the most powerful form of mafia the world has ever seen."

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Last edited by irneb; 07-01-14 at 08:13 PM.
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  #1595  
Old 07-01-14, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisLab View Post
Yes Keith I know it is different and it belongs to the previous Nationalist government and that when it was started with our tax money the promise was that it would save us money and make us self sufficient on the fuel side and that the price would eventually come down.
All the different suppliers were forced to have at least one Sasol pump on their driveway and it was sold for the same price as the other brands.
We are still waiting for all the good things that were promised us.
My question still remains: why should we pay the same price for Sasol as for BP

Chris.
Read your post, I thought you just explained it to me.

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Jeep Rubicon (BuzzBee - The Yellow Peril)
And a Trustworthy Appliance that I absolutely love!

The nice thing about FRIDAYS, its only two more days until MONDAY.

People that know me know that I skrik vir niks, except for SWAMBO and slide slopes, and deep sand and mud and inclines and declines and ruts and axle twisters and mall pavements.

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  #1596  
Old 07-01-14, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veneficus View Post
n ander ding
Gauteng STOOOT meer geld in ons land se ekonomie in as enige ander gedeelte en all daai geld word nie hier ge spandeer nie
en Oom Jan se plaas se goedere word verspry en verkoop in Gauteng
so die res van die land trek voordeel uit Gauteng uit

Hoekom kan Oom Jan dan nie n bietjie n bydra maak om die belangerike paaie op te gradeer nie
En sekere mense STOOT meer geld uit ons ekonomie uit met 7 vrouens ,, 80 kinders ,, en omtrent 'n 1000 kleinkinders. Maar miskien werk die stort opsie.
So ek se al julle Gautengers STORT NA JY DEUR 'n GANTRY gery het. Dit werk vir alles.

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  #1597  
Old 07-01-14, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veneficus View Post
n ander ding
Gauteng stoot meer geld in ons land se ekonomie in as enige ander gedeelte en all daai geld word nie hier ge spandeer nie
en Oom Jan se plaas se goedere word verspry en verkoop in Gauteng
so die res van die land trek voordeel uit Gauteng uit

Hoekom kan Oom Jan dan nie n bietjie n bydra maak om die belangerike paaie op te gradeer nie
Nonsense

Read post #1536 of this thread and stay tuned for tomorrow's episode of "Fluffy busts e-Toll MYTHS"

There will be one each day. Today was day one.

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And a Trustworthy Appliance that I absolutely love!

The nice thing about FRIDAYS, its only two more days until MONDAY.

People that know me know that I skrik vir niks, except for SWAMBO and slide slopes, and deep sand and mud and inclines and declines and ruts and axle twisters and mall pavements.

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  #1598  
Old 07-01-14, 08:43 PM
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pblaauw pblaauw is online now
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Fluffy, I'm waiting for you to show me proof it's not corrupt...I've linked proof that it is...

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IFS is like a swambo, soft, sexy and expensive!

Apparently I need to make the airplane noises like mommy does when I try to spoon feed you the info..

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Old 07-01-14, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pblaauw View Post
Fluffy, I'm waiting for you to show me proof it's not corrupt...I've linked proof that it is...
Off course it is corrupt.

Never denied that.

The question is how corrupt and how much.

Even taking a customer and his wife to supper is a form of bribery.

And corporate gifts.

Look at my post #1536 and the paragraph on bribery and corruption.

But that doesn't change the fact that we have to pay for the infrastructure.

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ZR2468 Marine
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Range Rover Sport TDV8 (The Green thing)
Range Rover 4.6 HSE P38 (Die Rooi Gevaar)
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And a Trustworthy Appliance that I absolutely love!

The nice thing about FRIDAYS, its only two more days until MONDAY.

People that know me know that I skrik vir niks, except for SWAMBO and slide slopes, and deep sand and mud and inclines and declines and ruts and axle twisters and mall pavements.


Last edited by Fluffy; 07-01-14 at 08:58 PM.
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  #1600  
Old 07-01-14, 09:01 PM
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pblaauw pblaauw is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
But that doesn't change the fact that we have to pay for the infrastructure.
...but twice....three times? So, you're ok with supporting the corruption?

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IFS is like a swambo, soft, sexy and expensive!

Apparently I need to make the airplane noises like mommy does when I try to spoon feed you the info..

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