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  #1  
Old 08-05-13, 08:37 AM
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Default SANDF in Trouble


Made headlines yesterday on KFM (Cape's largest radio station)
The SANDF is in trouble for punishing five soldiers with CB drill (for the younger generation, it's confined to barracks and hard PT drill etc)
They awolled and went to a nearby pub in full uniform. After being caught red handed they were given the CB drill etc. The unions jumped in and caused all hell, how can you drill soldiers in such a manner ..... and, and ..

Now let me think back to my army days, look at "Die Koporaal" skeef ...... CB, sloppy bed at inspection ....... CB, rifle not looking like it came out of the factory ...... CB
Going to civvie pub, on awol in uniform ...... DB (Detention Barracks, Jail for those who don't know, a place NO ONE wanted to be) no questions asked. You would have been drilled until hospital in some cases.
What has happened to the SADF, no wonder we are getting our backsides kicked in the Congo, no dam discipline
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  #2  
Old 08-05-13, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Faddel View Post
Going to civvie pub, on awol in uniform ...... DB (Detention Barracks, Jail for those who don't know, a place NO ONE wanted to be) no questions asked. You would have been drilled until hospital in some cases.
What has happened to the SADF, no wonder we are getting our backsides kicked in the Congo, no dam discipline
Blou staaldak vir 2 weke, vra my ek weet......, jy gaan PP terwyl jy makeer die pas!!! (No: 2 mag jy darem gaan sit, vir 2 min)

Dit is 'n sirkus (hulle het net meer tente) en ek kry die ou PF manne jammer wat nog in die ou dae met ordentlikke troepe gewerk het, en nou moet sukkel met die lot. Soveel van my vriende wat agter gebly het het net eenvoudig die mag verlaat en is nou ongelukkig in ander poste, ouens wat in murg en been militariste is doen nou office Johny werk.....

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  #3  
Old 08-05-13, 08:46 AM
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Those were the days when men where men... and not metrosexual's.

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  #4  
Old 08-05-13, 08:50 AM
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Ja...seen this coming

Went into our local EP command the other day, there is rotting food lying all over the lawns behind the buildings...and lots of it....
broken windows on all the buildings, derelict vehicles, not to mention the impound where they keep all the wrecked vehicles...sheeeeesh!!!

and to cap it off we got stopped on the way out by a sersant on guard duty with an R5 in his hands who was so stoned and drunk that he could hardly keep his eyes open let alone talk as he was slurring so much...

bloody disgrace if you ask me.

In my day of national service, this would never have happened, would hardly have been a blade of grass out of place.

All I can say is God help us if there's ever a war.

Possibly the only saving grace would be the fact that all the guys over 40 know how to use weapons etc etc thanks to national service.

Wouldnt want to be PF now, must be a sheeeet place to work, demoralising.
Would like to hear from guys who are in the service full time.

I must add though that this might only be the case here in PE. not sure on other bases.

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  #5  
Old 08-05-13, 08:53 AM
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With a army like this it's not going to be difficult overturning the government... just saying...
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  #6  
Old 08-05-13, 08:55 AM
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We are 8 to 4 soldiers !! And the troops are running the units due to who sleeps with who .
No offence to women but they should have been kept in their own units like at George in the older days.

Frans, bly om te sien jy was ook ack ack.!!

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  #7  
Old 08-05-13, 08:55 AM
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With a army like this it's not going to be difficult overturning the government... just saying...
Hehehe.

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  #8  
Old 08-05-13, 08:55 AM
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There is no such thing as SANDF anymore , Its a camp where you get free boarding and lay under the tree's all day long.
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  #9  
Old 08-05-13, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itchy & Scratchy View Post

I must add though that this might only be the case here in PE. not sure on other bases.
Nope, Kimberley same problem (Than again Diskobolos was never a show piece unit) what makes me sad is 8SAI (Upington) it was our pride, the beautiful lawns, and well maintained bungalows are no more....

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  #10  
Old 08-05-13, 08:59 AM
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http://www.dieburger.com/nuus/2013-0...otblou-gemoker

Ag shame! Arme kinders!! Hulle is GROOT MANNE as hulle kan AWOL en nog in 'n publieke kroeg in uniform kan gaan uithang, maar word uitgebeeld as KINDERS as hulle gevang is en goed OPGE@%! is!

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  #11  
Old 08-05-13, 08:59 AM
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Seems there are another side to the story. From a news report yesterday it seems that they had to hold up poles and when failing they were beaten on the arms with a broomstick. The one guy is apparently in danger of losing his arm. They reportedly were all threaded for bruises and this guy with the arm was hospitalized. Not saying the info is correct but that was what the first report said. Since then there has been a clampdown on news from the base.

Given hard exercise is one thing, but to beat guys in such a way that they are in danger of losing a limb is not on in my book.

I see this is reflected in the link in the previous post.

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  #12  
Old 08-05-13, 09:25 AM
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Yes Cobus, maybe a bit to far, but I dont think the troopies nowadays get OpF*k"s like we use to.

These are necessary to induce discipline when in need in a fighting situation....when you are given an order you do it!!! otherwise you might be dead....and your buds.

I wonder if nowadays it would be....

LE PLAT !!!!!! ............eISH ,,,,,,,,,,,,,Eh NOOOOO we are on strike



Hope you enjoyed that AK 47 round through your nut,,,, buddy...!!

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Last edited by Itchy & Scratchy; 08-05-13 at 09:26 AM. Reason: Add text
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  #13  
Old 08-05-13, 09:37 AM
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Ja, there is such a thing as too far, but the state of the military at this stage is a damn shame. If there is ever a war we don't have a hope in hell...

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  #14  
Old 08-05-13, 09:41 AM
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Eish Ma. Hulle het my cellphone gevat. Nou kan ek nie kla nie want die tikkiebox hy werk nie meer nie.
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  #15  
Old 08-05-13, 09:43 AM
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Was chatting to my son a few days ago.... this country... is ripe for a takeover. There is NO military to speak of.

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  #16  
Old 08-05-13, 10:35 AM
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Maybe this situation was taken a bit to far, judging by the pictures I saw on the iol website, however discipline is seriously lacking at all levels in our now unionized SANDF.

I did my bit and yes the OpF*&^&&Ks were certainly not fun, nor where they physically violent to the point of bodily harm, but hell they got the message across very clearly and did wonders for my mental and physical fitness.

I wonder if the defence forces in the "real world" tolerate their troops being members of unions?
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  #17  
Old 08-05-13, 10:36 AM
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Default Battle of Bangui

The Untild inside story by Helmoed Heitman is here

http://mampoer.co.za/helmoed-heitman/the-battle-in-bangui

Last edited by Sandjan; 04-07-13 at 04:01 PM. Reason: Copyright infringement
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  #18  
Old 08-05-13, 12:15 PM
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Hi Sandjan


Unfortunately we as "outsiders" only get to see the visual aspect or perception of what is going on because we drive passed or go into the camps that used to be well kept etc and they are in a pathetic state of disrepair.......this leads us to generalise a bit.


FACT - there is no doubt that South African fighters used to be rated amongst the best of the world, especially in bush fitting scenario"s but I wonder how that statement stands up now.


The loss of any soldiers life is a regrettable one, in England every single soldier that is killed is treated to a hero's homecoming , people line the streets to pay their last respects and throw flowers, in my opinion this is as it should be. they are fighting to protect us , although in the case of the CAR ,the man in the street didnt even know they were there, let alone weather they should have been or not..


I dont think the slapg*t hanger onners that are manning the bases now could care less if their own people live or die, as long as their pockets are full.......if you know what i mean.

I for one would love to be proud of our boys in uniform, the military should also be a place where youngsters should want to join as a career, and strive to increase their knowledge and standing in life.

I may be wrong but thats my feeling.

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  #19  
Old 08-05-13, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuluCowboy View Post
Was chatting to my son a few days ago.... this country... is ripe for a takeover. There is NO military to speak of.
Who in his right mind would want to take over the shambles left by the A&C?
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  #20  
Old 08-05-13, 12:58 PM
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This may be controversial but it is back to the basics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3-F4qZYJz4
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  #21  
Old 08-05-13, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Sandjan View Post
At none of the Infantry units I ever served at, and that includes Infantry School ( 1977), was it ever acceptable to beat troops with sticks. My National Service years were 77 and 78, my last CF camp was in 89.

Completely unprofessional of any military leader to beat his troops with sticks.

As for the CAR fight, read Helmoed Heitmans informed analysis. In today's Die Burger Col William Dixon, OC of the Bats coy there also talks about it.

The boys fought very hard and very well in CAR.

"In all, the fight cost 13 killed and 27 wounded. But the force retained its cohesion throughout and was able to fall back from two separate engagement areas to its base and to hold it until their attackers gave up trying to overrun them, offering, instead, a ceasefire and disengagement. By then they had suffered as many as 800 killed, according to the estimates of officers with considerable operational experience and by some NGOs in the country. Later reports say several hundred more may have died of wounds due to a lack of medical support. It helps to put those figures in perspective: the British Army’s 3rd Parachute Battalion regards its deployment in Afghanistan’s Helmand province for six months in 2006 as a hard fought deployment. Over that time, its battle group of 1 200 soldiers, lost 15 killed and 46 wounded, and fired 479 000 rounds of ammunition, all the while supported by light tanks, artillery, attack helicopters, Hercules gunships and fighters"

While SANDF is certainly not what it used to be, critiscm should be fair and informed.

This is sadly lacking in most of the comments above.
He commented on the Gupta plane landing at Waterkloof and said the media totally overreacted on the issue - really. As far as I know it is serious breach of security code if a civilian plane lands at an air force base and there usually is a no-fly zone above the airbase. So maybe he should get his facts straight before commenting.

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  #22  
Old 08-05-13, 01:25 PM
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unfortunately our army is just am unemployment agency.
we are better of with a few Rottweilers.
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  #23  
Old 08-05-13, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuluCowboy View Post
Was chatting to my son a few days ago.... this country... is ripe for a takeover. There is NO military to speak of.
And that is maybe why eversince CAR Zuma keeps on about Africa must stand together to stamp out military coos.
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Old 08-05-13, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandjan View Post
At none of the Infantry units I ever served at, and that includes Infantry School ( 1977), was it ever acceptable to beat troops with sticks. My National Service years were 77 and 78, my last CF camp was in 89.

Completely unprofessional of any military leader to beat his troops with sticks.

As for the CAR fight, read Helmoed Heitmans informed analysis. In today's Die Burger Col William Dixon, OC of the Bats coy there also talks about it.

The boys fought very hard and very well in CAR.

"In all, the fight cost 13 killed and 27 wounded. But the force retained its cohesion throughout and was able to fall back from two separate engagement areas to its base and to hold it until their attackers gave up trying to overrun them, offering, instead, a ceasefire and disengagement. By then they had suffered as many as 800 killed, according to the estimates of officers with considerable operational experience and by some NGOs in the country. Later reports say several hundred more may have died of wounds due to a lack of medical support. It helps to put those figures in perspective: the British Army’s 3rd Parachute Battalion regards its deployment in Afghanistan’s Helmand province for six months in 2006 as a hard fought deployment. Over that time, its battle group of 1 200 soldiers, lost 15 killed and 46 wounded, and fired 479 000 rounds of ammunition, all the while supported by light tanks, artillery, attack helicopters, Hercules gunships and fighters"

While SANDF is certainly not what it used to be, critiscm should be fair and informed.

This is sadly lacking in most of the comments above.
Sandjan, we were in the same army at the same time.
Let me tell you a little story of what happened to me in about October last year.
I had an appointment at Infintary School to see a Wo2. I get to the gate and troop "Gladys" sleeps up to the car door, asks what I want. I explain that I have an appointment bla, bla. No says she, I must sign in, I turn around go to the guard house, no one there, I hang around for 5 min, get back in the car and "Gladys" simply opens the boom, easy so far, I could have been anybody. I meet the Wo2 in the car park with three other Wo2's. We are talking and I take note of 3000 stompies, broken bottles and tins lying around, generally the place is filthy. While we are talking a very "paraat" guy comes past in a tracksuit. All four Wo2's streck him, no attention, just streck. I ask, who that was and get told it was the Regimental Sergeant Major. Wow, the RSM the power icon himself. Whiled watching him now walking away from us, here comes young troop "Gladys" walking towards him from the other direction with her cell phone headphones in her ears and dancing whiled walking and singing at the top of her voice, very jovial I must say, has she spotted the RSM I wonder, o' yes, she carries on her interesting "dance/walk" , strecks him whiled sort of still dancing and singing away, walks past us and does not even acknowledge the Wo2's exist.
I ask the Wo2's ...what the h**l was that all about, just about in unison they basically say that they were from the "old" defense force and they cringe at the TOTAL lack of discipline and simple total disorganization in the new defense force. Now in our day at Infintary School if we had seen die koporaal comming we would have taken a shortcut via George, Mosselbay and then back to Oudtshoorn never mind the RSM, Cape Town might have just been on the cards, you simply did your best to avoid anything with any rank.
Let's just get back here, we are talking about INFINTARY SCHOOL, yes, the most prestigious and best school in the country, probably Africa.

I must however in closing say that I have now seen some more photo's and done a bit of homework. If this is the case somebody needs to answer some serious questions. If this is all true and the guys have been beaten up like it appears to be then someone needs to answer for it.
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  #25  
Old 08-05-13, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandjan View Post
At none of the Infantry units I ever served at, and that includes Infantry School ( 1977), was it ever acceptable to beat troops with sticks. My National Service years were 77 and 78, my last CF camp was in 89.

Completely unprofessional of any military leader to beat his troops with sticks.

As for the CAR fight, read Helmoed Heitmans informed analysis. In today's Die Burger Col William Dixon, OC of the Bats coy there also talks about it.

The boys fought very hard and very well in CAR.

"In all, the fight cost 13 killed and 27 wounded. But the force retained its cohesion throughout and was able to fall back from two separate engagement areas to its base and to hold it until their attackers gave up trying to overrun them, offering, instead, a ceasefire and disengagement. By then they had suffered as many as 800 killed, according to the estimates of officers with considerable operational experience and by some NGOs in the country. Later reports say several hundred more may have died of wounds due to a lack of medical support. It helps to put those figures in perspective: the British Army’s 3rd Parachute Battalion regards its deployment in Afghanistan’s Helmand province for six months in 2006 as a hard fought deployment. Over that time, its battle group of 1 200 soldiers, lost 15 killed and 46 wounded, and fired 479 000 rounds of ammunition, all the while supported by light tanks, artillery, attack helicopters, Hercules gunships and fighters"

While SANDF is certainly not what it used to be, critiscm should be fair and informed.

This is sadly lacking in most of the comments above.
I agree with what you that one has to be careful when critisizing, especially when you don't have all the information.

But, I tend to agree wit the other posts in saying that the SANDF is not a fighting fit military force.

One should be aware at the role our politicians has played in this. But, I would be careful in using what Helmoed wrote as the absolute truth. You have to keep in mind that he is a consultant for the government on defense matter.

Some alternate links on Bangui. Not saying that this is the truth, but just to show that in situations like these, the truth usually is the first casualty.

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-04-09-c...iers-back-home
http://www.france24.com/en/20130404-...mining-oil-anc
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  #26  
Old 08-05-13, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweeling View Post
He commented on the Gupta plane landing at Waterkloof and said the media totally overreacted on the issue - really. As far as I know it is serious breach of security code if a civilian plane lands at an air force base and there usually is a no-fly zone above the airbase. So maybe he should get his facts straight before commenting.
Ha ha!!! You have no clue who Mr Heitman is then?

He would not be South African correspondent for a number of international publications like Jane's Defense Weekly if he did not knows what he is talking about. He is also an acclaimed author of many books on military matters on the Southern African continent so has a vast knowledge about the operation of the SA military.

And you are correct, any military base has a no fly zone above it, but only below a specified height, and only for UNAUTHORIZED aircraft. It is not an military/civilian aircraft thing. If you want major security screw-up, with absolutely no ho-ha from the press, look at the light civilian twin engine aircraft, based at AFB Waterkloof during the 70/80s, and used by the American embassy to take photos of South Africa's nuclear facilities.

@Henros, there is a huge difference between keeping quiet and talking bull. Mr Heitman may be a consultant for the Government, but that is not his bread and butter. I have only met him once, but did not read him as a person who will sacrifice his international standing as on defense expert to whitewash the SA Defense Force, he would rather just keep quiet.

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Last edited by jab2; 08-05-13 at 03:08 PM.
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  #27  
Old 08-05-13, 02:56 PM
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But we no loger have a Defense Force it was made a Peace Keeping Force a number of years ago, if I'm not mistaken? This changes the focus somewhat doesn't it?

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  #28  
Old 08-05-13, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jab2 View Post
Ha ha!!! You have no clue who Mr Heitman is then?


@Henros, there is a huge difference between keeping quiet and talking bull. Mr Heitman may be a consultant for the Government, but that is not his bread and butter. I have only met him once, but did not read him as a person who will sacrifice his international standing as on defense expert to whitewash the SA Defense Force, he would rather just keep quiet.
I am not saying that I don't believe what Helmoed is saying, but I one has to be careful when quoting one source. There usually is more than one side to a story.
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  #29  
Old 08-05-13, 03:39 PM
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It saddens me to see how a once proud and mighty defence force has degenerated into the shambles that it is today. I'm not even talking about military preparedness but general image and discipline. I have't seen a sharp looking soldier in ages and the general appearance and discipline when in civvy street is disturbing.

It has everything to do with leadership or the lack thereof. My RSM was a mean bastard and I ran a million miles due to a lack of discipline. The way I understood the reasoning behind the "oppie" was that it was meant to break down the individual and build a unit. Sure I hated it but it made us a better unit that had each others backs. We respected authority and were entrusted with "defending" our country from the perceived threat. As wrong as many of the things were in the past, at least we were ready if teh call came.

At one of our big parades I remember the army band playing a tune that really epitomised the ethos of the SADF. I don't remember the lyrics but it went something like this; "Vasberade is ons lese, veg gereed di SA Leer, vasberade is ons lese, vir Suid Afrika se eer". (excuse the spelling)

I doubt very much that the same applies to today's SANDF.

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  #30  
Old 08-05-13, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henros View Post
I am not saying that I don't believe what Helmoed is saying, but I one has to be careful when quoting one source. There usually is more than one side to a story.
Absolutely. The one source thing is a dangerous tightrope.

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Old 08-05-13, 03:54 PM
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As Bdr Kalis my gat so geslaan het, sou my ma darem vir PW opgefoeter het !! dis verseker !!
Wat hier gebeur het, volgens die koerant berig, is verkeerd -- of jy nou 2013 of 1977 inname was. Dit was nie in die ou army gedoen nie en moet ook nie nou gedoen word nie.
Ons is nie nou in n staat van oorlog nie en is dit dalk die rede dat dissipline verswak het, maar die leierskorps moet steeds verantwoordelikheid vat en sorg dat dissipline terugkom. Dit is ook die wens van AO van die leer. (CWO Charles Loubsher) en as almal doen waarvoor hulle betaal word kan dit net beter gaan.
Ongelukkig is boetie/boetie spelery aan die orde van die dag, maar ek bly positief en sorg dat my mense reg opgelei is.

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  #32  
Old 08-05-13, 10:05 PM
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There is no question that the SANDF is not the professional outfit it used to be.

No question at all. thank the politicians for that.

However, recces and bats fought very well in CAR, and from all accounts I do not know of any incident during the difficulties inj the bush war where our troops were ever faced with such odds.. and I served under one Maj A Van Graan, lt J Baauw. Cmdt AK de Jager etc in my time, so I recon I know what I am talking about, and if you know those names, you will too.
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Old 08-05-13, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuluCowboy View Post
Was chatting to my son a few days ago.... this country... is ripe for a takeover. There is NO military to speak of.
Mar die guptas het klaar, vir n paar pink madibas vir die prez

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  #34  
Old 08-05-13, 11:34 PM
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Went to do a quote at a base in Durban, asked if they still ran the 2.4 as I noticed some rather over weight people in uniform( reminded me of a few of the SAP members I have seen). The Captains response was, Only the task force guys run it the balance of the force don't have to run it.

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Old 10-05-13, 08:37 AM
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Maybe that should now be waddle, the 2.4........

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  #36  
Old 10-05-13, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandjan View Post
At none of the Infantry units I ever served at, and that includes Infantry School ( 1977), was it ever acceptable to beat troops with sticks. My National Service years were 77 and 78, my last CF camp was in 89.

Completely unprofessional of any military leader to beat his troops with sticks.

As for the CAR fight, read Helmoed Heitmans informed analysis. In today's Die Burger Col William Dixon, OC of the Bats coy there also talks about it.

The boys fought very hard and very well in CAR.

"In all, the fight cost 13 killed and 27 wounded. But the force retained its cohesion throughout and was able to fall back from two separate engagement areas to its base and to hold it until their attackers gave up trying to overrun them, offering, instead, a ceasefire and disengagement. By then they had suffered as many as 800 killed, according to the estimates of officers with considerable operational experience and by some NGOs in the country. Later reports say several hundred more may have died of wounds due to a lack of medical support. It helps to put those figures in perspective: the British Army’s 3rd Parachute Battalion regards its deployment in Afghanistan’s Helmand province for six months in 2006 as a hard fought deployment. Over that time, its battle group of 1 200 soldiers, lost 15 killed and 46 wounded, and fired 479 000 rounds of ammunition, all the while supported by light tanks, artillery, attack helicopters, Hercules gunships and fighters"

While SANDF is certainly not what it used to be, critiscm should be fair and informed.

This is sadly lacking in most of the comments above.
Thanks for this, I was just thinking we all lost our marbles. Nice balanced post in the midst of a lot of emotional comments.

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