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  #1  
Old 23-11-12, 05:42 PM
PaulWW PaulWW is offline
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Default UPS battery


Howdy all,

We have an intelligent UPS (APC Smart UPS 2200, model number SUA22001) fitted to our server. The idea being that if there is a power failure the server shuts down and restarts in the correct manner and automatically.

This morning I notice the light showing that the battery needs replacement is illuminated so I contact the Agents.

Long story short they have quoted me R7 700 for a new battery

HELP - anybody got any pointers where I can one at a realistic price or know where I can have the existing one repacked?
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  #2  
Old 23-11-12, 06:34 PM
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Paul, that UPS seems to have a 12v battery as the specs states 1x battery. Rip it out and connect 2 x 220Ah Victron AGM batteries to give you 440Ah 12v capacity.
It would not be as neat looking but it would work and outlast the other batteries by miles. Even 1x 220Ah should be fine!

This is what we do up in Zambia, I have 5x 2000 watt UPS setups in my house to protect my equipment and cater for the now daily power failures. Just be carefull some of these ups setups run 24v setups.

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  #3  
Old 23-11-12, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulWW View Post
Howdy all,

We have an intelligent UPS (APC Smart UPS 2200, model number SUA22001) fitted to our server. The idea being that if there is a power failure the server shuts down and restarts in the correct manner and automatically.

This morning I notice the light showing that the battery needs replacement is illuminated so I contact the Agents.

Long story short they have quoted me R7 700 for a new battery

HELP - anybody got any pointers where I can one at a realistic price or know where I can have the existing one repacked?
That is a high quality UPS that you have but they are expensive.It might be a good idea to look at alternative methods as already mentioned by "Mufarmer"

good luck
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Old 23-11-12, 07:08 PM
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Your local electrical wholesaler should have those batteries in stock. if not they should be able to order one for you.

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  #5  
Old 23-11-12, 07:08 PM
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Our UPS batteries all started bulging out about 2 weeks ago, I smelt it just in time.
So in comes the technician, in comes new batteries (bank of 32).

R11000 later!
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  #6  
Old 23-11-12, 07:19 PM
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I've been through this. The APC batteries are the same Ying Tong Iddle I Po batteries that you can get from a wholesaler with Fong Kong crossed out and APC written in crayon. And they never have stock. Most APC you can slide the battery out without shutting anything down, measure up the battery and get a replacement. You can even change the battery without shutting anything down on some models.

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  #7  
Old 23-11-12, 07:31 PM
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Mmm, maybe I am missing something here.

The proper battery is a 480AH high tech cartridge.

Actually quite reasonable at the price.

DIY guys can play with stripping it and finding Kong Foo replacements innards.

A professional company that relies on a reliable server for secure data retention shouldn't play games. You can loose your data and your company.

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  #8  
Old 23-11-12, 08:03 PM
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I have the small UPS's and replace the batteries myself once a year.
Yes they do bulge, which is a concern. I have two batteries in my UPS. 12v8ah 20 hr. R100-00 each.
I have taken the ups with two extra batteries in tandem and used it with energy saving lights for camping.

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  #9  
Old 23-11-12, 09:20 PM
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Batteries have a design life, anything from 2 -10 years
If you know what you are doing you can slide the battery pack out and swop the internals out.
Just be very carefull the packs run at different voltages.
You can even replace the internals with a external battery bank
e.g. AROS 3.3 kVA UPS runs at 122V (10 x 12V 7A batteries), 10 - 40 kVA UPS at 324V the real big 200 kVA plus UPS run around 430 Volts. Comparre to the small 1 kVA that runs at 12V with a 12A or 7A battery, you can extend this with external battery packs with their own charger in.

Some UPS has some intelligence that do a battery test and will warn you when the end of batt life is getting close.

Note
UPS must be serviced, small units once a year, bigger twice a year.
If you are in a dusty and/or high humidity area more often.
The chargers do give problems at some stage if you do not service and batteries go down much quicker.
See attached pics of end result when UPS (120kVA) went into overcharge with old 5 year design life batteries - cost to repair room, replace cables, swith gear, replace UPS and batteries approx R1m.
You do not want to have small one do the same, have experianced it with a 3 kVA UPS, unfortunately I do not have pics.
It makes a mess and repairs to the room and furniture including down time ran to a R100k.
You do not mess with power, it hurts and kills.
PS - I look after about 30 UPS of various sizes
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  #10  
Old 23-11-12, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danie S View Post
Batteries have a design life, anything from 2 -10 years
If you know what you are doing you can slide the battery pack out and swop the internals out.
Just be very carefull the packs run at different voltages.
You can even replace the internals with a external battery bank
e.g. AROS 3.3 kVA UPS runs at 122V (10 x 12V 7A batteries), 10 - 40 kVA UPS at 324V the real big 200 kVA plus UPS run around 430 Volts. Comparre to the small 1 kVA that runs at 12V with a 12A or 7A battery, you can extend this with external battery packs with their own charger in.

Some UPS has some intelligence that do a battery test and will warn you when the end of batt life is getting close.

Note
UPS must be serviced, small units once a year, bigger twice a year.
If you are in a dusty and/or high humidity area more often.
The chargers do give problems at some stage if you do not service and batteries go down much quicker.
See attached pics of end result when UPS (120kVA) went into overcharge with old 5 year design life batteries - cost to repair room, replace cables, swith gear, replace UPS and batteries approx R1m.
You do not want to have small one do the same, have experianced it with a 3 kVA UPS, unfortunately I do not have pics.
It makes a mess and repairs to the room and furniture including down time ran to a R100k.
You do not mess with power, it hurts and kills.
PS - I look after about 30 UPS of various sizes
Agree, thats why I said the price is pretty reasonable.

480AH is a lot of battery, doesn't matter if it is a single bat or 10 smaller ones.

Take the call out and techs install time into account and a guarantee and it is fair.

Don't play with power or try and take short cuts unless you really know what you are doing.

If you get a much cheaper quote, reread the beginning of this post and do the sums yourself. 480AH of elcheapo Deltec deep cycles is already nearly R7700 without call out and installation.

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And a Trustworthy Appliance that I absolutely love!

The nice thing about FRIDAYS, its only two more days until MONDAY.

People that know me know that I skrik vir niks, except for SWAMBO and slide slopes, and deep sand and mud and inclines and declines and ruts and axle twisters and mall pavements.

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  #11  
Old 23-11-12, 10:20 PM
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R7k for a 480A/H battery is not a bad price.

The 100A/H 12V North Star Batteries used in some telkom exchange battery back-up banks cost more than that and only last about 5 years.

Please whatever you do, don't swap out batteries on live systems unless you know what you are doing(Arcing and sparking due to potential differences can give you one hell of a fright and cause an accident, besides which you can blow fuses and other sensitive/ expensive components)

If the battery voltage is higher than about 50V (At 50V you will already feel a tickle) get a profesional to do it. I burned my hand badly on a 220V tripping unit battery bank and those were old 10A/H cells! Remember an interconnected cell bank (Battery) is always on and DC is an absolute nightmare to get shocked by.
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  #12  
Old 23-11-12, 11:46 PM
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This is not a bad price for that particular APC unit.
I wouldn't start saving money on the protection of a server....

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  #13  
Old 24-11-12, 08:04 AM
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As far as i remember, the APC 2200 takes 4 x 12v17ah batteries, might be 2 of them, can check on monday.

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  #14  
Old 24-11-12, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedgy View Post
As far as i remember, the APC 2200 takes 4 x 12v17ah batteries, might be 2 of them, can check on monday.
mm, with 2.2Kw load and even 4 batteries thats about 120 seconds of UPS time from full batteries to completely flat batteries.

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The nice thing about FRIDAYS, its only two more days until MONDAY.

People that know me know that I skrik vir niks, except for SWAMBO and slide slopes, and deep sand and mud and inclines and declines and ruts and axle twisters and mall pavements.

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  #15  
Old 24-11-12, 09:57 AM
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Its not a 2.2kW unit, its 2200VA. That unit has a power factor of 0.8, so it has a maximum capability of 1760w. Even then, you shouldn't run a UPS at more than 80% of capacity, so that unit should be loaded to a max of 1408w. And that is capacitive load, not inductive.

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  #16  
Old 24-11-12, 09:59 AM
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It is 4 batteries, i'm sure. At a load of 1408w, you'll have a battery discharge current of just shy of 30A, which will give you about 15 minutes on 4 x 12v17ah.

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  #17  
Old 24-11-12, 09:59 AM
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Deltec Paarden Island, give them a call and battery specs, they might ba able to help. I'm sitting with 3 APC 1000 units and 4 APC 800 units with busted batteries, planning on getting the replacements batteries from Deltec and then selling the units at a ridicules low price if any one is interested.

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Last edited by Cacey; 24-11-12 at 11:51 AM.
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  #18  
Old 24-11-12, 10:58 AM
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Battery test & replacement for Smart-UPS 2200


This may offer you some insight.

http://www.apc.com/support/badbatter..._battery_2.cfm

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  #19  
Old 24-11-12, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedgy View Post
It is 4 batteries, i'm sure. At a load of 1408w, you'll have a battery discharge current of just shy of 30A, which will give you about 15 minutes on 4 x 12v17ah.
Smart little engineer aren't you?

I stayed away from power factor because it would be over most people's heads. Now why don't you also factor in inverter efficiency if you want to be correct.

Then when you get the time factor all that in, and please do the sums and tell us all how 4x12v17ah manages your 1408w for 15 minutes.

I would love to see the sums.

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Jeep Rubicon (BuzzBee - The Yellow Peril)
And a Trustworthy Appliance that I absolutely love!

The nice thing about FRIDAYS, its only two more days until MONDAY.

People that know me know that I skrik vir niks, except for SWAMBO and slide slopes, and deep sand and mud and inclines and declines and ruts and axle twisters and mall pavements.

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  #20  
Old 24-11-12, 06:02 PM
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Thats a pathetic tone to have with someone when he is trying to be of assistance to somebody who asks a question, and therefore i will not be commenting further on the subject.

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  #21  
Old 24-11-12, 09:00 PM
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That's fine if your advice is correct, and if proven to be so I will retract and apologise.

In the interim could we have some of your calculations as requested.

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Range Rover Sport TDV8 (The Green thing)
Range Rover 4.6 HSE P38 (Die Rooi Gevaar)
Jeep Rubicon (BuzzBee - The Yellow Peril)
And a Trustworthy Appliance that I absolutely love!

The nice thing about FRIDAYS, its only two more days until MONDAY.

People that know me know that I skrik vir niks, except for SWAMBO and slide slopes, and deep sand and mud and inclines and declines and ruts and axle twisters and mall pavements.


Last edited by Fluffy; 24-11-12 at 09:05 PM.
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  #22  
Old 24-11-12, 09:57 PM
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If you do it yourself ,get the bat.from Deltec, otherwise phone Meissner and ask for Frikkie de Lange ,tell him Eugene referred you, he will give you all the info you need, as there are some bat. that does not last i dont want to bash brands here, but the bat. if kept in a well cooled area (Air Conditioning) will last 5 years plus ,that is why all the factories keep it in their plant rooms instead of a separate AC area that keep the bat. cool
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  #23  
Old 24-11-12, 10:34 PM
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If I remeber correctly the SmartUPS has all required intellegence to tell you what to do when.
The 2200 VA is basic a 2 kVA UPS that will have approx. 10-15 minute standby time with the internal battery at full load. You could add 2 or 3 battery extention packs to extend the run time.
The internal pack run at a high voltage, so be careful.
The supplier can repack the battery pack on site if required.
What they normally do is bring a pack to site and swop out, the old pack is repacked and recycled.
No down time required, would advice that you have the UPS service same time if it has never been done. Service will require down time for about 2 hours.

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Old 25-11-12, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
Smart little engineer aren't you?

I stayed away from power factor because it would be over most people's heads. Now why don't you also factor in inverter efficiency if you want to be correct.

Then when you get the time factor all that in, and please do the sums and tell us all how 4x12v17ah manages your 1408w for 15 minutes.

I would love to see the sums.
The following is open to improvement so please feel free to chip right in and correct me:

- The 4x12V17Ahr batteries could theoretically deliver 4x12x17=816W for 1 hour.
- So the above setup could theoretically deliver 1408W for 816/1408 = 0,58 hours = 34 minutes.
- Now assume inverter efficiency of 0,8 and battery derating of 0,75 then the 34 minutes reduce to roughly: 34x0,8x0,75 = 20 minutes.

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Old 25-11-12, 12:27 AM
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After you are done reading the comments from people who didn't get it all this morning, you can give Yebo Electronics a call as well. Just google them.

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  #26  
Old 25-11-12, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulWW View Post
Howdy all,

We have an intelligent UPS (APC Smart UPS 2200, model number SUA22001) fitted to our server. The idea being that if there is a power failure the server shuts down and restarts in the correct manner and automatically.

This morning I notice the light showing that the battery needs replacement is illuminated so I contact the Agents.

Long story short they have quoted me R7 700 for a new battery

HELP - anybody got any pointers where I can one at a realistic price or know where I can have the existing one repacked?
Maybe you could get another quote from these guys: http://www.upscape.co.za/index.htm. I think they know what they're doing, but that's only because I know the owner!

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  #27  
Old 25-11-12, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggie View Post
The following is open to improvement so please feel free to chip right in and correct me:

- The 4x12V17Ahr batteries could theoretically deliver 4x12x17=816W for 1 hour.
- So the above setup could theoretically deliver 1408W for 816/1408 = 0,58 hours = 34 minutes.
- Now assume inverter efficiency of 0,8 and battery derating of 0,75 then the 34 minutes reduce to roughly: 34x0,8x0,75 = 20 minutes.
I do appologise, you are of course 100% correct, but.

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ZRC4576 VHF 4x4 "ORRA" Frequencies
ZS5KAD Yeasu Ft-897D

Range Rover Sport TDV8 (The Green thing)
Range Rover 4.6 HSE P38 (Die Rooi Gevaar)
Jeep Rubicon (BuzzBee - The Yellow Peril)
And a Trustworthy Appliance that I absolutely love!

The nice thing about FRIDAYS, its only two more days until MONDAY.

People that know me know that I skrik vir niks, except for SWAMBO and slide slopes, and deep sand and mud and inclines and declines and ruts and axle twisters and mall pavements.


Last edited by Fluffy; 25-11-12 at 12:15 PM.
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  #28  
Old 25-11-12, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
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After you are done reading the comments from people who didn't get it all this morning, you can give Yebo Electronics a call as well. Just google them.


Touche !!


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