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AAWDC / NOW / ORCSA / SAROD
AAWDC - Association of All Wheel Drive Clubs of Southern Africa
NOW - National Offroad Workgroup
ORCSA - Off Road Council South Africa
SAROD - South African Recreational Offroad Drivers

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  #151  
Old 28-06-11, 07:16 PM
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· EIA‐type specifications to be followed for the establishment of all trails and tracks
· Environmental management plans (EMPs) for all trail and track operations (EMP template included in Annexure 1)
· Environmental auditing of trail and tracks (Auditing template included in Annexure 2)
· Accreditation and training of off‐road environmental assessors

· Access control requirements for driver and rider competency

Does this mean The Driver and his Spous ??

· Trail and track safety and rescue services

Does this mean each trail has to have its own Ambulance ??

I am just asking , these are just some of the rules i do not understand?
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  #152  
Old 28-06-11, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Kotze View Post
Dave,

Where do I fit in? Difficult one.

Firstly, I see myself as an independent party.

Secondly, I am also a member of the Jeep Club and the Amathole Off-road Club. Therefore the club perspective is very important to me. At this level I am duly represented by the Jeep club and the AAWDC. The concerns I have at club level are therefore also addressed through these club forums. I am, for example, responsible for training and driver development in the Jeep Club El Chapter, as well as in the Amathole Off-road Club.
No Vested interest But you gain Nothing in these training sessions
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  #153  
Old 28-06-11, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannes14 View Post
No Vested interest But you gain Nothing in these training sessions
Please refer to posts 139 and 142
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  #154  
Old 28-06-11, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannes14 View Post
· EIA‐type specifications to be followed for the establishment of all trails and tracks
· Environmental management plans (EMPs) for all trail and track operations (EMP template included in Annexure 1)
· Environmental auditing of trail and tracks (Auditing template included in Annexure 2)
· Accreditation and training of off‐road environmental assessors

· Access control requirements for driver and rider competency

Does this mean The Driver and his Spous ??

· Trail and track safety and rescue services

Does this mean each trail has to have its own Ambulance ??

I am just asking , these are just some of the rules i do not understand?
Johannes 14,

With all due respect, are you really serious about the questions you ask, or are you just fooling around, or are you on your 10th Klippies and Coke, or

I assume that you are just fooling around.
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  #155  
Old 28-06-11, 10:11 PM
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Jean,

As the owner of both a 4x4 vehicle and off-road motorcycle I want to know two things. I duly apologise in advance for any ignorance on my part.

Firstly, will I need to do competency training for my motorcycle in order to ride at a facility such as Rhino Park?

Secondly, in an environment that will be promulgated by the new draft "legistlation"(for lack of a better word) who stops the training facilities from issuing competency certificates for a "fee" as opposed to actual training?
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  #156  
Old 29-06-11, 08:12 AM
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I would so like to sit around a table with a couple of guys .... maybee I could learn a thing or two and get a "proper" understanding of this mess.
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  #157  
Old 29-06-11, 10:19 AM
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Just received a mail from Anchor, with a list of questions and answers that may allay some of the questions in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen Tunley
Dear Stakeholders,


The Draft Norms and Standards are for the off-road industry, and have been developed with input from the off-road industry. Guidance and information from the industry is critical in this process. We encourage you to go through the Draft Norms and Standards and become involved in this process. Your input, feedback and any suggestions would be much appreciated. Please note that this comment period ends on the 4th of July. Following this a stakeholder consultation report will be compiled and submitted to the project steering committee. Following discussions the draft Norms and Standards will be amended where appropriate. This will then be submitted to DEA for publication in the Gazette, following which there will be a second 30 day comment period.

Please find attached a Frequently Asked Questions document to assist you in this process.

Please feel free to contact Anchor Environmental Consultants at info@anchorenvironmental.co.za or alternatively on 021 701 3420 if you have any questions or concerns. English and Afrikaans versions of the Draft Norms and Standards and information documents are available for download on the following website: www.anchorenvironmental.co.za (Document download > Norms and Standards for the Recreational Off-road Sector).
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Draft norms and standards_FAQ.pdf (346.5 KB, 54 views)
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  #158  
Old 29-06-11, 10:24 AM
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And what the hell is wrong with you people! Why are you looking for a pig behind a bush, and beating the bush, and around the bush, at the same time?

Jean has answered all your questions re his involvement, and yet you still criticize him? Stoppit, or I'll send you to your rooms! Divisiveness is one thing, looking for and actively stirring for crap is another matter completely! If you do not agree with someone, say so, don't be a coward and attack him / her, and question his/her motives.
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  #159  
Old 29-06-11, 10:31 AM
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that was quick Bushcamp, I was about to put it up - I only got it 5 minutes ago!!!
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  #160  
Old 29-06-11, 10:32 AM
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  #161  
Old 29-06-11, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koebelwagen View Post
Jean,

As the owner of both a 4x4 vehicle and off-road motorcycle I want to know two things. I duly apologise in advance for any ignorance on my part.

Firstly, will I need to do competency training for my motorcycle in order to ride at a facility such as Rhino Park?

Secondly, in an environment that will be promulgated by the new draft "legistlation"(for lack of a better word) who stops the training facilities from issuing competency certificates for a "fee" as opposed to actual training?
Koebel,

These are very good questions.

As I have it currently, you will have to obtain an ORV Operator Certificate for both the motor cycle and the 4x4, as they are two two completely different applications. The same will apply for quads and ATVs. Different training will also be required. However, what I do recommend is that you do your training with an accredited training provider that can provide you with training for both the vehicle applications, this should save you time and money. For your sake - I hope I am wrong.

Re the "fee" in stead of training. Eish - I hope this never happens, but, alas, anything is possible. However, the SAQA process is quite an onorous process with a lot of paperwork - a complete portfolio of evidence has to be submitted and you have to write tests and be formally assessed - and must be done by the learner himself. None of the assessors that I know will let you get away with the assessment part. It is for this reason that training providers like AOA has a three-person system - 1 x trainer and 1 x assessor and 1 x mod (as is the case with all the other accredited training providers I am aware of). Then there is also the TETA reviews. If you "paid" for the training, you will get caught out during the assessments.

It is therefore very unlikely that this situation will occur, but ... nothing is impossible. lets hope this never happens.
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  #162  
Old 29-06-11, 10:57 AM
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I just received permission to post extracts of the docs, so here goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FAQ 1
“Enforcement is a critical component and seems to be missing in the draft document.”
We recognise that this is a major and fundamental part of the norms and standards and it certainly has not been over looked. We have no intention of publishing this document without provisions for enforcement. NOW and DEA are in the process of discussing and agreeing upon suitable mechanisms for enforcement as currently only government officials can conduct enforcement activities. Ideally, representatives of NOW need to be empowered to enforce these norms and standards. There are only approximately 100 EMIs who have to deal with a myriad of issues. These are sensitive discussions. We do recognise the critical importance of Chapter 6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAQ 2
“Why are commercial/government ORV users (like Eskom, Telkom and the military) not going to be regulated by these norms and standards?”
These Draft Norms and Standards are part of the strategy that was developed in response to the ultimatum issued by the minister of DEAT to the recreational off-road industry. NOW’s mandate does not extend beyond the recreational off-road industry and therefore these Draft Norms and Standards are only applicable to recreational use. This falls outside the scope of this project. We understand that many people are frustrated by this, but NOW have a very clear mandate to regulate the recreational off-road industry and our work cannot cover broader commercial users. It must also be recognised that there are some training initiatives within those industries to teach drivers responsible off-road driving techniques. Once recreational users have their house in order they will be in a much stronger position to point fingers at other users and would have much more leverage to insist on comparable levels of control amongst these other user groups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAQ 3
Proposal for a “mini-EIA” or less costly EIA.
The original idea put forward by the NOW strategy was to customise and thereby streamline the EIA process for the off-road industry through the development of norms and standards. The feasibility and practicality of this was investigated by Anchor. It was concluded, based on research, discussions with representatives of the off-road industry and government, field trips to different types of trails and prior experience that norms and standards were not a suitable tool to replace an EIA. The reason for this is that norms and standardscannot simply replace requirements for an EIA as norms and standards are typically inflexible rules with which compliance is mandatory, while an EIA is a decision aiding tool which provides information to decision makers on the consequences of a particular decision. To be able to replace an EIA with norms and standards in the case of a 4x4 trails, the full impact of and appropriate mitigation measures for the construction and use of any particular trail must be known in advance. This is clearly not the case given that the potential impacts of trail development are dependent on a wide range of ecological, climatic, hydrological, socio-economic, geological, geomorphological and route design attributes. The impacts of all possible combinations of these factors are not known on a national scale. In addition to this, a number of other considerations mitigate against replacing requirements for an EIA with norms and standards: socio-economic impacts cannot be addressed adequately through the use of norms and standards, as socio-economic conditions are most often dynamic; standards do not allow for discretion or trade-offs, which may be to the benefit of both the off-road sector and the environment; proving compliance with strict standards is likely to be more onerous than the current Basic Assessment process; and cumulative impacts cannot easily be considered through the use of standards.
However NOW still recognise that EIAs are costly and may result in several trails having to close. NOW will thus investigate other means to reduce costs of EIAs for trails. These include identifying and appointing consultants on a regional basis to prepare assessments for multiple routes within a region at a reduced cost, developing a basic assessment template customised to the off-road industry that would eliminate unnecessary requirements of the basic assessment as it stands, and developing national guidelines for assessments of routes to help simplify the assessment and decision making process. The feasibility of these suggestions still needs to be investigated and NOW would appreciate any further suggestions in this respect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAQ 4
“Could a higher resolution map of sensitive areas please be made available to us”
The mapping of sensitive areas is a project being carried out by a consulting firm on behalf of the Department of Environmental Affairs (DEA). Anchor staff have met with this firm and discussed the mapping project with the project team during the drafting phase. Their project is in essence the
amendment of the EIA listing notices and covers all activities requiring EIA and Basic Assessment. It is expected that this will be finalised during July at which time better quality maps can be made available. This will then need to be published in the Gazette. The current map is still in draft form.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAQ 5
“What areas are depicted on the map as sensitive areas?”
The areas depicted on the map are those areas specified in Listing Notice 3 of the EIA regulations, where a Basic Assessment is required prior to the construction or extension of a route. This list includes all protected areas, buffers around protected area, World Heritage sites, Ramsar sites, protected area expansion priorities, Biosphere Reserve core areas, threatened ecosystems, rivers, wetlands and other inland water bodies including estuaries, important topographical features, and sensitive areas identified in EMFs. The coastal public property has been specifically excluded (although this is depicted on the current version of the map) to avoid clashes with existing legislation. The sensitive areas map will have to be reviewed periodically to ensure it is kept up to date and is correct in terms of any ground truthing that is done in the future. The provinces were involved in the identification of sensitive areas during the mapping process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAQ 6
“All the fees proposed in the draft norms and standards could become costly. The board must disclose these costs to us.”
The co-regulatory board will eventually be the teeth behind these norms and standards. This will cost money, which is to come out of the prescribed fees. No costs have yet been decided upon. The co-regulatory board, once it is established will determine the fees. One should remember that NOW, who will be on the co-regulatory board, will represent the interests and views of the off-road industry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAQ 7
“Land owners and route owners are not adequately represented on NOW and in this process.”
NOW have acknowledged that land owner/route owner representation on the board is an on-going issue and are making efforts to improve this situation. Jaco Venter (NOW) does have contact details for an extensive list of route owners and has made sure that they have been informed of this process and have all received the information that has been distributed. Furthermore, several route owners have registered with Anchor. We recognise that this is a major issue and are making efforts to engage with land owners/route owners. Assistance in contacting or spreading the word to additional route owners would be greatly appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FAQ 8
“Are there unit standards for off-road auditors?”
No unit standards exists for off-road auditors at present. The criteria that a person will need to fulfil to qualify as an off-road auditor have not been decided and we are open to suggestions. Initially it was proposed that auditors would need to be natural scientists but NOW recognised that this would be costly and most likely unnecessary given the fact that the ecological characteristics and potential impacts will have already been reviewed by an Environmental Assessment Practitioner (EAP) during the Basic Assessment. There is a possibility that unit standards for off-road auditors may be developed in future, at which time the norms and standards would have to be reviewed. Please remember that norms and standards are much more flexible than other legal tools and can be reviewed and amended with greater ease.
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  #163  
Old 29-06-11, 11:13 AM
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Thanks Riaan for the FAQ document.

I think it addresses most of the concerns raised on this forum.

Regarding Item 3 of the FAQ document - Reducing the costs of EIAs and Audits:

1. I think we should identify forum members, who are both EIA specialists and 4x4 enthusiasts to provide these services at a reduced cost - a type of social responsibility thing.

2. As 4x4 operators, I think we should do our best to support those land/track owners who do register with the Co-regulator. After all, it is numbers that count. This should also keep the fees down.

3. I previously also referred to the possibility of a fund. This can be achieved from sponsorships from large corporate companies who may have a vested interest in keeping these trails open - maybe in the form of payment for advertising, etc. However, this will have to be done through SAROOF.
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  #164  
Old 29-06-11, 11:15 AM
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First of all - I kind of lost interest in this thread when the mudslinging started...

but back to topic...

The one thing that is not clear to me:

Do we need a 'golden ticket' licence thingy for ALL offroad tracks and courses, or only those in sensitive areas?

to put it another way - can Joe Soap still buy a 4x4 and go and play at somewhere like dirt and dust or Melkbos 4x4 which are dedicated fun tracks?
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  #165  
Old 29-06-11, 11:23 AM
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Re the enforcement issue:

The level of intensity/severity of enforcement will be directly proportional to the enforcement and application of the N&S by the land/track owners and the ORV Operators.

The level of participation and commitment of the land/track owner/operator and the ORV Operator will be pivotal to the success of the co-regulation effort (to avoid a total ban).

The more efficient the adherence to the N&S by the land owners and the ORV operators, the less external enforcement will be required, and vice versa.

This is where we as the 4x4 community need to take responsibility.

EDIT: This is where 4x4 Clubs have an advantage, as they already have systems and measures in place to ensure compliance by members and to attend to mis-conduct.
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  #166  
Old 29-06-11, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
First of all - I kind of lost interest in this thread when the mudslinging started...

but back to topic...

The one thing that is not clear to me:

Do we need a 'golden ticket' licence thingy for ALL offroad tracks and courses, or only those in sensitive areas? Currently - ORV Certificate only required for tracks and trails within proclaimed inland sensitive areas.

to put it another way - can Joe Soap still buy a 4x4 and go and play at somewhere like dirt and dust or Melkbos 4x4 which are dedicated fun tracks? Yes, if these trails are not falling within an enviromentally sensitive area (assuming that dirt and dust and Melkbos 4x4 falls out of these areas) There should still be a lot of tracks and trails falling out of these proclaimed inland sensitive areas.
However, as a few people have already indicated, our conduct as recreational 4x4 ethusiasts should be the same where ever we go, with due regard to safe, responsible and environmentally sound practices, regardless of the area/track/trail classification.
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  #167  
Old 29-06-11, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Faddel View Post
I would so like to sit around a table with a couple of guys .... maybee I could learn a thing or two and get a "proper" understanding of this mess.
Dave,

I think what made this whole issue clearer for me, is that it kind of mirrors what we are already doing within established 4x4 clubs.

Each club has rules and regulations. You pay a fee to become a member. A management committee is appointed to fulfil the management and regulation function.

There is normally a training officer - responsible for training and guidance.

There is a H&S officer - who monitors and addresses health and safety issues on outings. Fines are issued to transgressors.

There is also normally an environemntal officer - who is responsible for ensuring that everything is done to protect the natural environment, and fines are also issued for transgressors.

The events organiser is responsible to arrange events, and is also responsible to co-ordinate efforts with the land owners. He also obtains all the requirements and stipulations from the land owner and ensures that everyone complies.

Most issues are addressed on the trail/outing and group pressure normally prevails. The ethos of the club is automatically transferred to new members through the example of the existing members.

The underlaying principle is: Protect and preserve whilst enjoying the priviledge in order to keep on enjoying the priviledge in future.

However, all of this is done in good spirit and in a non-judicial manner. It is the constant reminders, commoradary, mutual respect and group pressure that ultimately results in the change in mindset and ensuring compliance - self-policing.
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  #168  
Old 29-06-11, 11:58 AM
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Jean, that is how I read it too.

the reason for the question is to simmer things down to a mild panic.

I think it is important for people to realise that this legislation is not intended to prevent anyone going offroad and playing.

there will still be play pits and play areas that do not require the golden ticket to drive, nor an EIA to exist.

this will only apply to those areas that are defined as environmentally/ecologically sensitive.

this is a pain... not just for getting a licence, but because the interference of so called environmentalists means they will object on any grounds, including views and so on to prevent a trail getting a permit. believe me, I know what these idiots can get up to.

on the other hand it's far better than a blanket ban, and basically it means you have to go to some trouble to drive these routes, which is not entirely bad.

the problem is several routes will disappear from the list as the effort of getting an EIA will just not be worth it.

So, yes, hopefully, we will see sponsors coming forward to keep these tracks open and assist.

People like Toyota, Land Rover and Jeep are the people we will need to look to, as well as 4x4 speciality shops and services such as megaworld and Tuffstuff - it's in their interest to keep their products 'needed' by the existence of these trails.

Plus ad hoc sponsors like Red bull who might be interested in being involved in SERIOUS hectic trails.

This of course means less sponsorship for events and motorsport and so on.

but it is not an end to 4x4 fun by any means...
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  #169  
Old 29-06-11, 12:22 PM
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Apo,

I agree.

The land owner issue is a difficult one. You get land owners, and land owners.

I am fully prepared to assist land owners who are committed and want to comply.

Then there are the land owners - who are anti SA and anti-government, and sommer anti-everything - who should have left SA but could not afford to. These guys cause a lot of problems for the industry. But .... they do have a lot of support from the 4x4 community .... and this will create major problems in future.
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  #170  
Old 29-06-11, 12:50 PM
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well, to be fair, you own some land, you don't know whether it's going to be decided it actually belongs to someone else, whether it's going to be nationalised or just grabbed, and now you are totally restricted to what you can do with that land.

you invest all the money and the DEA decides you can't do it, it's lost, then Telkom or Eskom decide they MUST have a line over your land and they just do it 'in the national interst' and off they go without having to worry about it.

I'd be a little miffed at the penalties imposed on MY LAND as well!!!

the problem is that under current law you are an evil person for owning land, klaar, the populace hates you, the environmental freaks hate you, and you have zero rights and protection and more laws keep on being added to make it harder and harder to use it.

Actually after a little altercation on Friday, I am led to believe that owning a newish 4x4 makes you an evil person, as does your method of dress and I will be going to hell for it.

I might post that story, quite amusing after the fact

but back to point - if the rest of the country is anything like the western cape, they will have zero chance of getting away with anything after this lot becomes law - the 'watchers' and the green scorpions will get them if they try and carry on...
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  #171  
Old 29-06-11, 12:57 PM
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Yep,

Like all things in life: You can stand and fight or you can make it work for you .... It all depends on your attitude, and your ability to use the thing between your ears.

When in Africa .....
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  #172  
Old 29-06-11, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
Actually after a little altercation on Friday, I am led to believe that owning a newish 4x4 makes you an evil person, as does your method of dress and I will be going to hell for it.

I might post that story, quite amusing after the fact
Please publish that story. This I have to hear
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  #173  
Old 29-06-11, 01:19 PM
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I have been following all of this since "kortbroek" started his threat. I do not have a problem with a law to conserve nature, but not at cost to the public or land owner. We are already paying carbon tax, road tax and will have to pay off-road tax aswell.

There are still millions of people that have no idea of this law to come.

I was taught driving a vehicle at the age of 6, had my schooling on a Willy`s Jeep at 7 in the Lebombo mountains and Swaziland and also learned how to drive 2 wheel drive vehicles in the Kalahari-sand, 4x4`s were not a common vehicle as today. I learned to operate and drive bulldozers and tractors and had my army driver training on Unimogs and later the Samils, accumulated thousands of kilometers on different terrain, own a 4x4 for 30 years, have code 14 - EC/PDP no restriction drivers license for most of my life, can operate and drive anything with wheels and tracks

AND NOW I HAVE TO PAY TO GET ACCREDITED DRIVER TRAINING

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Kotze View Post
Oom Paul,

Regarding accredited training - You are in the same position as many others - that is why I recommend that you join a 4x4 club where you can get the training done at much reduced rates. That is why I did my training and assessor training - so that I can provide training to club members at reduced costs (club members only cover the costs associated with the training provider costs). Most 4x4 clubs are very actively involved in this. Clubs do not make money out of this - we look after the interest of our members. The AAWDC, for example, are looking at funding options to provide this training to associated club members for free.
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Old 29-06-11, 01:30 PM
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@ pajeromania - you can get accreditation based on prior experience - I am sure Jean or Dave can offer more insight into that, but yeah, what crock of poo...

@ Koebel.... it's actually a hell of a long story, and you'd have to understand beloved to make it really worth while
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Old 29-06-11, 03:24 PM
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@ pajeromania - you can get accreditation based on prior experience - I am sure Jean or Dave can offer more insight into that, but yeah, what crock of poo...

No RPL (only your driver's license is recognised as prior learning that have to be in place) ... No formal training required if you have done prior training within the past 5 years, but a portfolio of evidence have to be prepared and a formal assessment has to be done in terms of the SAQA requirements for US254135.
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Old 29-06-11, 03:26 PM
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@ Mr Pajeromania,

How did you obtain your Code 14 driver's license? Did they look at your past experience and simply issue you with a license?
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Old 29-06-11, 03:46 PM
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OT but relevant,
Today (as of March 2011) you may no longer for instance do your code 10 licence and drive a code 08 car. (EB, EC or whatever!) A code 10 is for that class of vehicle and so on, a pain but ya, another revenue.
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Old 29-06-11, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Faddel View Post
OT but relevant,
Today (as of March 2011) you may no longer for instance do your code 10 licence and drive a code 08 car. (EB, EC or whatever!) A code 10 is for that class of vehicle and so on, a pain but ya, another revenue.
actually that one was revoked
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  #179  
Old 30-06-11, 10:55 AM
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Why is everyone so quiet?

Only a few days to go to still submit comments.

The one good thing about the N&S, is that it is flexible ... it is not an Act ... and can be changed and ammended more easily and frequently. So, we can finalise it, apply it, test it, review it and then amend it.

The biggest question to date was how do we get everyone involved?

I think that once we have some sort of N&S going, and it starts to affect people directly, then we will start getting more inter-action. Sad, but true.
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Old 30-06-11, 04:59 PM
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@ Mr Pajeromania,

How did you obtain your Code 14 driver's license? Did they look at your past experience and simply issue you with a license?

Jean, I did my 08 license with a learners test and practical and my code 14 with a leaners test and practical and my military with a leaners test and a practical on each vehicle.
Should I do a specific off-road course to qualify or may I just do a test ?
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Old 30-06-11, 06:39 PM
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Default Relevant documents re: Norms & Standards

I have posted the relevant docs re: Norms & Standards on my website for anyone to download.

http://www.africanoffroad.co.za/wdocs.php

Its all there just the Cape town meeting feedback that will be up soon.

Greetings
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Old 30-06-11, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajeromania View Post
Jean, I did my 08 license with a learners test and practical and my code 14 with a leaners test and practical and my military with a leaners test and a practical on each vehicle.
Should I do a specific off-road course to qualify or may I just do a test ?
Pajeromania,

Similar process - referred to as a formal assessment against US 254135. It involves the compilation of a portfolio of evidence, practical assessment and tests.
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Old 30-06-11, 07:56 PM
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Pajeromania,

Similar process - referred to as a formal assessment against US 254135. It involves the compilation of a portfolio of evidence, practical assessment and tets.

Thanks Jean
there`s a saying " you can not teach an old dog new tricks" but I believe in "you are never to old to learn something new"
Will give it a shot, just to find an instructor closeby.
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Old 01-07-11, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Kotze View Post
Why is everyone so quiet?

Only a few days to go to still submit comments.

The one good thing about the N&S, is that it is flexible ... it is not an Act ... and can be changed and ammended more easily and frequently. So, we can finalise it, apply it, test it, review it and then amend it.

The biggest question to date was how do we get everyone involved?

I think that once we have some sort of N&S going, and it starts to affect people directly, then we will start getting more inter-action. Sad, but true.
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  #185  
Old 02-07-11, 10:20 AM
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How do you involve the recreational 4x4'er and at the same time keep him interested in this issue ? That is a very tough one. To the overwhelming majority of us, it is just that, recreational, part time, for fun. We deal with enough crap, regulation, money-grabbing politics in our every day lives, we have hobbies to get away from this sh*t!!!!!! My own reading of this entire thread being put on my 'TO DO LIST' for quite some time confirms this. Opposed to the 'Jannie snaps a towball with pics' thread being clicked on frantically and regulary.

I trust commercial players in the 4x4 industry to play the biggest part in this process, finding a balance in it all as such. After all, they have huge interest vested in this, if it becomes too regulated, they will lose business, if too expensive, they will lose business, if the environment in which they operate becomes damaged, well, then we simply won't want to go there anymore.

Crude and 'non-caring' as it may sound, as a recreational 4x4'er, I will simply change hobbies when it becomes more of a schlep than a pleasure.

I do not agree that this issue has been published adequately and out there long enough for exposure from all parties concerned, if it was not for this forum, a privately owned meduim/enterprize, I would not know about this legislation under review. If you want to create awareness of HIV/Aids, you take it to the people who are likely to be affected by it in future, putting up posters in Silver Lakes is not going to do much for your campaign, same with this. I am very quick to be charged green tax when buying my new 4x4, why not make use of this very piece of legislation to adress, or at least create awareness about this issue (retorical question, we all know why), after all, this is what it is all about, the environment and its conservation.

Well done to the the parties who are getting involved in this process, It looks to me as if the existence and sustainability of the industry as a whole is dependent on your input, but of course you realize that, that is why you are taking this matter seriously, what gets me is..... why are there so few of you getting involved in this (from what I can gather)

Good luck
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  #186  
Old 03-07-11, 01:25 PM
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Well for what it is worth, here is my reply. Maybee all points were covered, maybee not, it's the feeling and concerns from the meeting and my personal concerns.
LAST DAY GUYS & GIRLS!

Draft Norms & Standards
25th June 2011.
The Southern Cape area held an informal meeting to discuss the draft Norms & Standards and the implications or effect it could have on the recreational industry as a whole. The meeting was held at LA Sport in George and attended by 17 people including registered guides, route owners, equipment suppliers and general interested parties. The vast majority of attendees were from the FWDCSA (Garden Route) All names, ID numbers etc can be supplied.
The following was noted in the draft:

Chapter 1
No major comments, generally accepted by all
Chapter 2
4 (1)b Valid registration certificate. This poses a major problem as there are no unit standards for the off-road guide. You cannot stipulate something that does not exist. Although many of us have done our guide course (eg, Masazane Guide course) and are registered with guide numbers, there are still no unit standards.
Registration of Routes
5(1) mostly all points. The route owners already answer to the DEA. This whole section should be carefully looked at and revised. The Co-regulatory Board stands to become a failure before it gets off the ground due mainly to lack of finance and knowledgeable people “employed”. NOW decided at the very first meeting held in George that there would be a “streamlined” EIA allowed to cut cost’s, this appears to have been swept aside. An example was given from one route owner who applied for an EIA to be done at a new route he wanted to open, this EIA would have cost him in excess of R300 000.00, the route needless to say never happened. He also gave figures and financials from 2010. He spent nearly 90% of his income from route fee’s on maintaining the route “so anyone expecting to make an income from 4x4’s is in for a shock”
Registration every 3 years is TOTALLY unacceptable. The 90 day decision is unacceptable, who is going to control this period and what action can be taken againsed the “board” should they not make the decision within this period. The fee’s payable are not known and when the “board” fails to bring it’s side is the route owner then operating illegally.
6(1) special events Once a route has conformed to all requirements, it has conformed, end of story. Some routes hold many special events per year, some for training, some for charity events, Church events, some split bikes, quads and cars for obvious reasons and so on, to apply and pay “fees” for every event is unacceptable and will simply not be done. To put a maximum of 3 events per two year period will not happen, period.
8 (1,2,3) Auditing of routes. Who is this auditor, what qualifications does he have and how is he going to “police” all the trails. What vehicle will he drive and who is paying his (their) salary(s)
10(1 &2).Access control Has nothing to do with anybody except the land owner, a record will (and is!) be kept.
11 Off Road Safety all Most of this is already done and is route specific. Is it really necessary to include such “trivial” nonsense in a Norms & Standards document. This is an owner responsibility shared by the driver who has already been found competent to US 254135, he/she can therefore “handle” the vehicle in a safe and responsible manner.

Chapter 3
Chapter 3 is already performed by the route operators. Remember they already fall under the DEA and have to abide by all sorts of regulations. It is in their (route owner) own best interest to maintain the route in excellent condition which most do anyway.
Chapter4
16 (1) competency certificate. The registration certificate is acceptable. This should however be controlled by the Registered Service Provider. This will prevent delays at the “department” preventing the driver from driving on trails.
16 (5) cancel or suspend …. This is agreed upon but should be done under recommendation from the service provider who will gather “evidence” from the route owner or complainant(s) and then only after serious investigation. This is very important as it can lead to legal action againsed or from concerned parties.
17 ORV Operator This entire section should be removed. The driver having obtained his US 254135 certificate will automatically know and abide by the principals learned whiled doing the unit standard. This is what the training is all about. It is also the route owners responsibility to ensure the rules of the route are adhered to.
18 Off-Road Guide … The co-regulatry board does not (or should not) issue registration certificates, this should be done by the Service Provider who trains the guides to a Unit Standars which does not exist ………
18 (3) Renewal of the permit should also be the responsibility of the Service Provider who will send documentation to the “board”
18 (5) 30 days… Who controls this hence point (3) above. You cannot put someone out of a job because the “board” did not issue a permit in time, who will be held responsible?
19 (1to 3)Guide behavior… Ten vehicles in unacceptable, guides cannot possibly make a living from 10 vehicles. 15 could perhaps work. This entire point 19 should be controlled by the service provider with documentation being forwarded to the “board”
Chapter 5
The entire chapter 5 needs a rethink. The recreational industry is going to be brought to it’s knees and forced underground by the running cost’s of this board. The “power” that this board has is unacceptable and it is answerable to no one. It’s work load could be halved or even quartered by moving a lot of responsibilities to the service providers who already have the infrastructure and qualified members in place.
Chapter 6
Enforcement
The “buzz” word at the moment. It’s simple, the number one “enforcer” is the route owner himself. He (she) is the person who spends R1000’s keeping the route up to an acceptable standard. If this is not done he is the only person loosing “customers” as a driver will not return to a badly “kept” route. He/she as stated should report this to the relevant or nearest service provider who will investigate and if necessary in consultation with all parties concerned suspend the drivers permit.
A central database should be kept of all registered parties, drivers and route owners. This should be accessible to all parties and regularly updated with information on routes, suspended drivers and so on.

The views above were the views of all parties at the meeting held on Saturday 25 June 2011.


Conclusion (Dave Faddel)
I have always supported NOW and have in fact had to attend “disciplinary” hearings at my club due to misunderstandings and misconceptions with regard to my feelings and support of the NOW process in general. I qualified as an instructor (facilitator) and then as an assessor, also as a 4x4 field guide all because I felt something had to be done to bring us 4x4ers into line as the minister requested, I have supported the concept from the beginning and in fact still do, however ….
As we stand at the moment I shudder to think that the draft stand’s to totally wreck the recreational 4x4 industry. We are going to loose many routes due to cost factors, there are simply too many fees attached to the Co-regulatory Board and the draft in general. The Co-regulatory Board is an all powerful board that demands fees for everything possible and high salaries are going to have to be paid to it’s highly qualified members along with 4x4 vehicles issued as company cars for the inspections. The industry will not and honestly cannot afford to keep this board afloat. The end result will be an entire industry suffering, this industry employs hundreds of people throughout South Africa and many of those people are going to loose their jobs, that’s a fact. Of the remaining routes and drivers many will not pay the fees stipulated and will simply be driven underground.
To give an example of how little faith I have in the system we must look at the industry at present. The unit standards (254135 &254154) have been out a number of years and are due for a serious “overall” (there are no environmental issues called for) I qualified on both unit standards at the end of 2009 along with a number of other “students” To date not one statement of results has been issued by TETA to any of the original instructors or assessors. I have now trained in excess of 35 students and still not one person has received a statement of results. Is this what we are looking forward to? As far as your requirements for guides go, the 4x4 off-road guides having paid good money for their courses are having to train to “envisaged” unit standards. How long is this still going to take? We have waited nearly 2 years for results from a department that exists, what is the future of our guides without a unit standard, 5 years?
You are basing a lot of your Norms & Standards on departments who are failing miserably or even worse on a department which is still to be formed and no one knows anything about, what salaries they are going to earn, how big the department will be and, and, and

Sorry, I cannot support the Draft in it’s present form. We as the interested parties should have been given the opportunity to comment and give input long before it was released to the general public, you would then have had a draft far more representative of the recreational industry as a whole. The route owners should be driving this with support from the service providers and general industry.
Please bear this in mind……………..
The then minister said the following .. In 2005 the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism called for owners and users of inland 4x4 recreational driving tracks to move towards betterregulated and more equitable practices in respect of their activities in South Africa’s inland environment.
Well I put it to you that the industry is in far better shape now than in 2005, we have lost over 250 trails and the industry is behaving itself. Is this not what the minister wanted. He also envisaged a SELF REGULATED INDUSTRY which is exactly what we are not going to have,

Please see the following thread also (possibly where you got most of the questions from when you sent the FAQ’s through)
www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php?t=85667




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  #187  
Old 03-07-11, 01:30 PM
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eina, ouch, eina, eina, EISH!
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Old 03-07-11, 03:08 PM
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Dave,

I think you comments are fair and reasonable. The TETA issue is definately worth mentioning.

I believe that there will be quite a few submissions, which will keep Anchor and the Steering Committee busy for some time.

I am looking forward to seeing how this whole process unfolds.

Lets see what happens.
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Old 05-07-11, 06:02 PM
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I am late to the scene I have been out in the African bush for quite some time and have not had forum access. I have briefly returned and missed most of this saga and have yet to read through all of your concerns.

For these reasons you can most likely disregard my following comments, they probably will do nothing to quell your frustrations anyway, but for what it is worth from a conservation side of things you will not find a more competent person to be drafting this legislation than Karen. Not only did she consistently kick my arse in our various conservation/ecology degrees marks-wise, but is certainly more receptive to stakeholders concerns than I would be, indeed she was the one that invited me to the Control of vehicles in the coastal zone a while back so that I could air concerns and ask questions relevant to the 4x4 community where I put forward the need for zoned maps and applicable Acts which were noted.

I would say both the conservation of our natural resources and the 4x4 community are lucky to have someone of her calibre dealing with this issue.

Again you might not give a toss what I think, especially since I have yet to read the proposed legislation, but I felt it should be said
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  #190  
Old 05-07-11, 07:04 PM
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I would say both the conservation of our natural resources and the 4x4 community are lucky to have someone of her calibre dealing with this issue.
I do not personally know Karen but I can attest to her proficiency - especially in dealing with our queries and requests thus far. In fact, thanks to her influence (among others), the Durban workshop is happening tomorrow evening.
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Old 08-07-11, 09:35 AM
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How did Durban Workshop go? Did many attend?
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  #192  
Old 08-07-11, 10:38 AM
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How did Durban Workshop go? Did many attend?
IMO - it went very well. Just over 30 people attended.
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  #193  
Old 13-09-11, 11:22 AM
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Default Information Update

Quick Update for you guys from Anchor

Quote:
Originally Posted by anchor
dear stakeholders,

thank you for the time and effort you have put in to participate during the development of draft norms and standards for the recreational off-road industry. Please find attached an information document which briefly outlines the process followed in the first phase of this project, addresses key issues and indicates the way forward.

If you have any further queries or comments, please direct these to now (jaco venter jacoventersa@gmail.com).

Anchor environmental consultants, now and dea would like to thank all stakeholders for their participation to date. The input has been critical, and much appreciated in the first phase of this project.

Kind regards,

karen tunley
anchor environmental consultants
8 steenberg house
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tokai
7945
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www.anchorenvironmental.co.za
[/quote]
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  #194  
Old 20-09-11, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Faddel View Post
Well for what it is worth, here is my reply. Maybee all points were covered, maybee not, it's the feeling and concerns from the meeting and my personal concerns.
LAST DAY GUYS & GIRLS!
Draft Norms & Standards
25th June 2011.
The Southern Cape area held an informal meeting to discuss the draft Norms & Standards and the implications or effect it could have on the recreational industry as a whole. The meeting was held at LA Sport in George and attended by 17 people including registered guides, route owners, equipment suppliers and general interested parties. The vast majority of attendees were from the FWDCSA (Garden Route) All names, ID numbers etc can be supplied.
The following was noted in the draft:

Chapter 1
No major comments, generally accepted by all
Chapter 2
4 (1)b Valid registration certificate. This poses a major problem as there are no unit standards for the off-road guide. You cannot stipulate something that does not exist. Although many of us have done our guide course (eg, Masazane Guide course) and are registered with guide numbers, there are still no unit standards.
Registration of Routes
5(1) mostly all points. The route owners already answer to the DEA. This whole section should be carefully looked at and revised. The Co-regulatory Board stands to become a failure before it gets off the ground due mainly to lack of finance and knowledgeable people “employed”. NOW decided at the very first meeting held in George that there would be a “streamlined” EIA allowed to cut cost’s, this appears to have been swept aside. An example was given from one route owner who applied for an EIA to be done at a new route he wanted to open, this EIA would have cost him in excess of R300 000.00, the route needless to say never happened. He also gave figures and financials from 2010. He spent nearly 90% of his income from route fee’s on maintaining the route “so anyone expecting to make an income from 4x4’s is in for a shock”
Registration every 3 years is TOTALLY unacceptable. The 90 day decision is unacceptable, who is going to control this period and what action can be taken againsed the “board” should they not make the decision within this period. The fee’s payable are not known and when the “board” fails to bring it’s side is the route owner then operating illegally.
6(1) special events Once a route has conformed to all requirements, it has conformed, end of story. Some routes hold many special events per year, some for training, some for charity events, Church events, some split bikes, quads and cars for obvious reasons and so on, to apply and pay “fees” for every event is unacceptable and will simply not be done. To put a maximum of 3 events per two year period will not happen, period.
8 (1,2,3) Auditing of routes. Who is this auditor, what qualifications does he have and how is he going to “police” all the trails. What vehicle will he drive and who is paying his (their) salary(s)
10(1 &2).Access control Has nothing to do with anybody except the land owner, a record will (and is!) be kept.
11 Off Road Safety all Most of this is already done and is route specific. Is it really necessary to include such “trivial” nonsense in a Norms & Standards document. This is an owner responsibility shared by the driver who has already been found competent to US 254135, he/she can therefore “handle” the vehicle in a safe and responsible manner.

Chapter 3
Chapter 3 is already performed by the route operators. Remember they already fall under the DEA and have to abide by all sorts of regulations. It is in their (route owner) own best interest to maintain the route in excellent condition which most do anyway.
Chapter4
16 (1) competency certificate. The registration certificate is acceptable. This should however be controlled by the Registered Service Provider. This will prevent delays at the “department” preventing the driver from driving on trails.
16 (5) cancel or suspend …. This is agreed upon but should be done under recommendation from the service provider who will gather “evidence” from the route owner or complainant(s) and then only after serious investigation. This is very important as it can lead to legal action againsed or from concerned parties.
17 ORV Operator This entire section should be removed. The driver having obtained his US 254135 certificate will automatically know and abide by the principals learned whiled doing the unit standard. This is what the training is all about. It is also the route owners responsibility to ensure the rules of the route are adhered to.
18 Off-Road Guide … The co-regulatry board does not (or should not) issue registration certificates, this should be done by the Service Provider who trains the guides to a Unit Standars which does not exist ………
18 (3) Renewal of the permit should also be the responsibility of the Service Provider who will send documentation to the “board”
18 (5) 30 days… Who controls this hence point (3) above. You cannot put someone out of a job because the “board” did not issue a permit in time, who will be held responsible?
19 (1to 3)Guide behavior… Ten vehicles in unacceptable, guides cannot possibly make a living from 10 vehicles. 15 could perhaps work. This entire point 19 should be controlled by the service provider with documentation being forwarded to the “board”
Chapter 5
The entire chapter 5 needs a rethink. The recreational industry is going to be brought to it’s knees and forced underground by the running cost’s of this board. The “power” that this board has is unacceptable and it is answerable to no one. It’s work load could be halved or even quartered by moving a lot of responsibilities to the service providers who already have the infrastructure and qualified members in place.
Chapter 6
Enforcement
The “buzz” word at the moment. It’s simple, the number one “enforcer” is the route owner himself. He (she) is the person who spends R1000’s keeping the route up to an acceptable standard. If this is not done he is the only person loosing “customers” as a driver will not return to a badly “kept” route. He/she as stated should report this to the relevant or nearest service provider who will investigate and if necessary in consultation with all parties concerned suspend the drivers permit.
A central database should be kept of all registered parties, drivers and route owners. This should be accessible to all parties and regularly updated with information on routes, suspended drivers and so on.

The views above were the views of all parties at the meeting held on Saturday 25 June 2011.


Conclusion (Dave Faddel)
I have always supported NOW and have in fact had to attend “disciplinary” hearings at my club due to misunderstandings and misconceptions with regard to my feelings and support of the NOW process in general. I qualified as an instructor (facilitator) and then as an assessor, also as a 4x4 field guide all because I felt something had to be done to bring us 4x4ers into line as the minister requested, I have supported the concept from the beginning and in fact still do, however ….
As we stand at the moment I shudder to think that the draft stand’s to totally wreck the recreational 4x4 industry. We are going to loose many routes due to cost factors, there are simply too many fees attached to the Co-regulatory Board and the draft in general. The Co-regulatory Board is an all powerful board that demands fees for everything possible and high salaries are going to have to be paid to it’s highly qualified members along with 4x4 vehicles issued as company cars for the inspections. The industry will not and honestly cannot afford to keep this board afloat. The end result will be an entire industry suffering, this industry employs hundreds of people throughout South Africa and many of those people are going to loose their jobs, that’s a fact. Of the remaining routes and drivers many will not pay the fees stipulated and will simply be driven underground.
To give an example of how little faith I have in the system we must look at the industry at present. The unit standards (254135 &254154) have been out a number of years and are due for a serious “overall” (there are no environmental issues called for) I qualified on both unit standards at the end of 2009 along with a number of other “students” To date not one statement of results has been issued by TETA to any of the original instructors or assessors. I have now trained in excess of 35 students and still not one person has received a statement of results. Is this what we are looking forward to? As far as your requirements for guides go, the 4x4 off-road guides having paid good money for their courses are having to train to “envisaged” unit standards. How long is this still going to take? We have waited nearly 2 years for results from a department that exists, what is the future of our guides without a unit standard, 5 years?
You are basing a lot of your Norms & Standards on departments who are failing miserably or even worse on a department which is still to be formed and no one knows anything about, what salaries they are going to earn, how big the department will be and, and, and

Sorry, I cannot support the Draft in it’s present form. We as the interested parties should have been given the opportunity to comment and give input long before it was released to the general public, you would then have had a draft far more representative of the recreational industry as a whole. The route owners should be driving this with support from the service providers and general industry.
Please bear this in mind……………..
The then minister said the following .. In 2005 the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism called for owners and users of inland 4x4 recreational driving tracks to move towards betterregulated and more equitable practices in respect of their activities in South Africa’s inland environment.
Well I put it to you that the industry is in far better shape now than in 2005, we have lost over 250 trails and the industry is behaving itself. Is this not what the minister wanted. He also envisaged a SELF REGULATED INDUSTRY which is exactly what we are not going to have,

Please see the following thread also (possibly where you got most of the questions from when you sent the FAQ’s through)
www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php?t=85667


Dave - did you ever see any kind of response to this?
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Old 20-09-11, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salo de Swardt View Post
Quick Update for you guys from Anchor
[/QUOTE]


Salo - how can the draft norms and standards have been submitted to the DEA for publication (as stated in this document) when it is clear from this same document that they are nowhere near ready to be submitted?
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Alex GP0221-WC
"the village scoundrel" - Uys
nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. there is just too much fraternising with the enemy Henry Kissinger
Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.
Douglas Adams
those who can, do; those who can't, teach George Bernard Shaw
A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business.
Henry Ford
it is better to be irresponsible and right than to be responsible and wrong Winston Churchill
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  #196  
Old 23-03-12, 02:41 PM
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Does the Gerotek 4x4 course count as training As me and my dad has a Mining background we both were sended on these training Courses I'f got the training manual and certificate
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