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  1. #141
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    Default Re: Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    Interesting thread, thanks Alex.

    For 6cyl diesels I think BMW got it very right by just sticking to the beautiful i6. Still miss the the one I had. They seem to always find a way to squeeze it in despite the length. I like the long bonnets though.
    Dewald

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    Default Re: Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    Quote Originally Posted by DCR View Post
    Interesting thread, thanks Alex.

    For 6cyl diesels I think BMW got it very right by just sticking to the beautiful i6. Still miss the the one I had. They seem to always find a way to squeeze it in despite the length. I like the long bonnets though.
    Bmw made a brilliant descision to stick to rear wheel drive years ago.

    most of the reason for the effort that was put into V6 development was because many manufacturers wanted s big engine in a FWD vehicle , and then they use the horrible thing across the range.

    would much prefer a straight 6 in the Jeep ...

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  4. #143
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    Default Re: Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Those are are super interesting !

    its not the crank shaft that is the big trick, it's the Conrod and cam arrangement...

    i want to make one 😊

    actually a rotary (not a wankel) is even more interesting , the crank remains stationary and the whole motor spins...
    Like the very early Bleriot Gnome engine

    The first successful rotary engine is generally attributed to the American F.O. Farwell in 1896; but the French Gnome engine, developed by the Seguin brothers, was much more successful in bringing the rotary to a broad aviation market beginning in 1909. The original Gnome had two valves, with the inlet in the head of the piston and the exhaust in the in the cylinder head. The monosoupape, as the name signifies, had only one valve in the cylinder head, eliminating a weak feature of the earlier design, and was the most numerous model during World War I.

    It powered the French Nieuport, Bleriot, and Pomier aircraft, the British Nieuport 28C.1 and Sopwith F.1 Camel, and was also built under license in England, Italy, and the U.S.

    https://airandspace.si.edu/collectio...-rotary-engine


    https://collections.museumvictoria.com.au/items/393639





    https://www.shapeways.com/product/EHKXYDS2K/1-24-scale-gnome-7-omega-rotary-engines-x-2

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  5. #144
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    Default Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    My 2cw from an 'office tiffy'. From what I read in the initial post, which is very informative and makes primary reference to the problem of vibration. This vibration causes, it's seems ALL the problems for the crank?

    My question is then, how does driving style, weight of vehicle increase or decrease this vibration that stresses the crank??

    Roy
    Last edited by royjacobs; 1 Week Ago at 08:55 AM.


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    Default Re: Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackMamba View Post
    I was kinda hoping you would get around to explaining how cranks on radial engines work -- especially the double or multiple row ones .......

    Check out this beast...


    https://www.facebook.com/ganews/phot...type=1&theater

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    Semper in excretia sumus solum profundum variat
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    Default Re: Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    That is a beast!!
    Pratt & Whitney R-5600 Quadruple Wasp. I don't think it ever flew, or even ran, for that matter, but it's original donors were impressive in their own right.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_R-4360_Wasp_Major

    The last 11 WW2 Corsairs had this engine fitted...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodyear_F2G_Corsair

    And how thy work inside...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_engine


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    Default Re: Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    Mmmm, radial engines. Hearing the Sea Fury 18 cylinder radial engine is something that I will remember forever - it sounds like mechanical Armageddon.
    Rainier Vermaak "There is no cure for being a ....." - Bron




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  10. #148
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    Default Re: Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainier Vermaak View Post
    Mmmm, radial engines. Hearing the Sea Fury 18 cylinder radial engine is something that I will remember forever - it sounds like mechanical Armageddon.
    And it had a long bonnet...oops long nose

  11. #149
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    Default Re: Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    It's real fun doing the magnito timing on a radial. To get both magnito's perfectly timed takes patience and skill.
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    Default Re: Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul#25 View Post
    It's real fun doing the magnito timing on a radial. To get both magnito's perfectly timed takes patience and skill.
    Nailed it on my trade test!!!
    Not bad for an all turbine guy..especially with those vernier timing blocks.
    Cheers,
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    Default Re: Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnoK View Post
    Nailed it on my trade test!!!
    Not bad for an all turbine guy..especially with those vernier timing blocks.
    Same with me. I got a lot more practice when I worked on the Junkets JU52 for a year.
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  14. #152
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    Default Re: Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    I currently own 2 v6's, v9x and 3.2 Pentastar. I must say both are very smooth the 3.2 in swambo's cherokee seems even better than the 3.6 I had in the wrangler. The new Pentastar reminds me very much of my BMW Z4 Coupe I had a while back even if that was an inline 6. I really enjoyed winding it on a pullway. Having read what the guys with more knowledge than I said. I will take it easy with both I own at the moment. It seems that what designers should have done was to stick with I6's and v8's and just design vehicles around them. BMW has done this for a long time and their cars not exactly ugly! Toyota also doesn't seem to give a sh1t about the long nose, they have been selling LC 70 series for the last 30 years and the market doesn't mind. When it comes to sportcars I've always prefered gt looking cars with a long nose and a short backside.Think classics like Ferrari 250gt, Aston Martin DB 5 or more recent Mercedes AMG Gt. More than enough room for a propper v12. My dad has a Merc 600sl 1996, that is turbine smooth, if only he can sort out the electronic gremlins.
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  15. #153
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    Default Re: Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooly View Post
    I currently own 2 v6's, v9x and 3.2 Pentastar. I must say both are very smooth the 3.2 in swambo's cherokee seems even better than the 3.6 I had in the wrangler. The new Pentastar reminds me very much of my BMW Z4 Coupe I had a while back even if that was an inline 6. I really enjoyed winding it on a pullway. Having read what the guys with more knowledge than I said. I will take it easy with both I own at the moment. It seems that what designers should have done was to stick with I6's and v8's and just design vehicles around them. BMW has done this for a long time and their cars not exactly ugly! Toyota also doesn't seem to give a sh1t about the long nose, they have been selling LC 70 series for the last 30 years and the market doesn't mind. When it comes to sportcars I've always prefered gt looking cars with a long nose and a short backside.Think classics like Ferrari 250gt, Aston Martin DB 5 or more recent Mercedes AMG Gt. More than enough room for a propper v12. My dad has a Merc 600sl 1996, that is turbine smooth, if only he can sort out the electronic gremlins.
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  17. #154
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    Default Re: Discussion point - why it's always been hard to build a V6....

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Well, obviously , the problem actually lies with the block.

    If, in your hypothetical situation, the crank was a bit weak even with best modern manufacturing techniques and metals, all you'd have to do is make the webs a bit thicker.
    So I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I have some questions/ observations:
    1) You mention modern materials. I'm genuinely interested in new wrought steels. The world of heavy engineering still uses en19 (maybe en24) for a shaft like this, which is a steel developed in the Second World War.

    In any event as you know increasing the endurance limit of the steel does help with fatigue life, but your hypothetical engine would probably have a good quality moly steel in anyway. So not much room to unobtainium.

    2) The quality of the machining of the cranks in the fatigue failure zone I've seen posted on this forum would suggest that your hypothetical engine would have massive gains to be made here. Or am I remembering wrong? A nice fatigue friendly smooth radius at the ends of the journal would work a treat.

    Shotpeening the journal radius would definitely fix a marginal design, or even a wrong one actually, and should be cheaper to implement than a new engine design.

    3) I'm not understanding why you would thicken the web. I assume the web is the portion of the crank that's between the journals. I would have thought that increasing the journal diameter would have had a far greater effect?

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