Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures




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    Default Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Preliminary Report on investigation into the failure of crankshafts
    on TDV6 D3’s and 3.0 D4’s all with the 6 speed autobox.


    Back in 2010 when I was looking into the possibility of acquiring a D3 TDV6 for my wife, I was warned by various friends in the wholesale trade to stay way clear of those vehicles, due to severe engine issues.
    In South Africa the issues were mainly concentrated around failed plastic thermostat housings, bearing failures (rotating) and broken cranks. All three incidents resulted in new sub assemblies.


    Bearing Failures

    Once I got a picture of what some of the main contributing factors of the failures were, i.e. excessively long intervals between oil services, eventually leading to accelerated bearing wear, I selected a vehicle for Swambo, that was serviced on time based 6 months intervals (6000-8000km). For the purpose of our investigation however there are three issues here:

    1. Time delay between cranking the engine and full oil pressure build up on the TDV6 motor. This can become critical, when an engine hasn’t been run for a month or more.

    2. Following on from #1 increased wear of the oil pump leading to eventual possible bearing failures.

    3. Build up of sludge and combustion residues, leading to a reduced oil filter flow. This is a real problem even with Oil TBN above 7.5 at 24000km.


    Plastic Thermostat Housing

    Concerning the plastic thermostat housing, once these were replaced at regular intervals, engine failures emanating from this stopped.


    Crankshaft Failures

    The failure of the cranks is probably the most vexing of all three of these issues. Various theories have been discussed on this forum, from insufficiently hardened cranks (soft cranks are less prone to snap) to harmonic vibrations, failed front balancers, vibration from faulty torque converters etc.

    We know now, that cranks fitted to TDV6 D3/RRS (2.7) and 3.0 D4/RRS, coupled to the ZF 6-speed autobox can snap under certain circumstances. Both 14mm and 16mm cranks are at risk here. All these cranks affected break at THE EXACT SAME SPOT. One can actually take the front part of a snapped 2.7 crank and hold it to the rear part of a snapped 3.0 (D4) crank and yes you guessed it, the fracture area is a match.


    Various theories have been floated, some resulting in multi-page deliberations. I myself was partially wrong while looking at the front balancer as the offending part. My take on the harmonic vibration however was correct.

    Once I had certainty that the fracture areas are identical in all the TDV6 auto crankshaft failures, it was time to get “down and dirty” to find out where the REAL weak link was. To this end I had one of the cranks investigated by various specialists and all of them concurred that the reason for the breakages is an incorrect radius undercut, (between #2 big end and #2 main) i.e. that undercut being too shallow. This will result in a predetermined potential breaking point (Sollbruchstelle in German).

    Now that we FINALLY know where the weak link in this issue is, we can try to prevent unnecessary vibration loads on the crank by taking some basic precautions:

    1. Do a proper FULL auto gearbox flush ideally every 60’000 to 80’000km. NB: We are talking here about a full flush with a proprietary autobox flushing machine (see attached pic). This will prevent TC shudder.
    Check also here: http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/...te=1&p=3188785

    2. Have the front balancer checked for running true at 100’000km intervals or whenever changing the Poly-V belt. If any - even slight wobbling is observed, replace immediately.

    3. Replace the oil pump at each cambelt change, this will go a long way to prevent bearing rotation.

    4. If there is any misfire on the engine, get injectors checked and if one or more are faulty, replace them as a set. Do not fiddle with replacing individual injectors. This could contribute to engine vibrations.


    The above points are no ironclad guarantee that the crank will not fail. However the fact that the SDV6 with the 8-speed gearbox seems to be mostly immune to crank failures is a ray of hope, that with the above precautions we can drastically reduce the possibility of failure. I will write a separate report on my meeting with the ZF guys last week.
    I trust that this investigation will contribute to many D3’s and D4’s owners implementing these precautions and thereby being spared the failed crank syndrome.
    Attached are some pics:
    a) Picture of front part of inspected D3 crank (pen points to offending area)

    b) Picture of rear part of inspected D3 crank

    c) Picture of a similar failure on a 4-cylinder boxer racing engine (crank was built up and they got the radius undercut wrong).

    d) Pictures of a Wynn’s autobox flushing machine (Mike Mechanics in PMB)

    e) The blue machine is at the ZF Workshop in Meadowdale
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    Last edited by hgbosch; 2016/04/11 at 04:01 PM.
    George Bosch
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    George it is good that the heading states "Preliminary".

    Also good that we potentially now have a prelim starting point to protect these engines from potential crankshaft snapping.


    Would be good to hear from other owners if they had been following the below regime and had ir not any failures and at what KMs?

    Thanks for your effort

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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    George,
    firstly many thks for all your endeavours - I always enjoy your high standard of engineering talk.
    Now, can we take this to Land Rover HQ and get some reaction?
    2005 Disco 3 TDV6


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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by georgecape View Post
    George,
    firstly many thks for all your endeavours - I always enjoy your high standard of engineering talk.
    Now, can we take this to Land Rover HQ and get some reaction?
    Hi georgecape

    they have already come to the party assisting customers way past their warranty obligations.

    What they however have not done is to give the reasons for the failures and how to try to prevent them.

    Here thanks must go to Mike Grant from Mike Mechanics in PMB who was the catalyst to get me on the correct track.

    Also thanks must go to Sartor Bros Engîneering and to CME. All contributed with their expertise/experience to get a handle on THE REAL REASONS WHY THESE CRANKS SNAPPED.

    The main thrust of this article is not to have another go at an already flogged horse, but to give some insight into what can be done TO MINIMISE the risks of getting stuck with a snapped crank.

    As I mentioned before, there is no guarantee, but at least we are now heading into the correct direction
    George Bosch
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Hi George,

    Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts and investigations down for all to read.

    Please could you elaborate on the radius issue? How is the undercut wrong?

    Regarding the 8 speed, are there enough high mileage 8 speed vehicles out there yet to draw conclusions about their immunity?
    Last edited by zoneout; 2016/04/11 at 10:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by zoneout View Post
    Hi George,

    Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts and investigations down for all to read.

    Please could you elaborate on the radius issue? How is the undercut wrong?

    Regarding the 8 speed, are there enough high mileage 8 speed vehicles out there yet to draw conclusions about their immunity?
    Hi zoneout

    I had a meeting with ZF last week, prior to me posting today to get some more details.

    In a nutshell the 8-speed box is much more immune to TC shudder, than what the 6-speed box is. It has a completely different lock up mechanism. And the 6-speed box and its tendency to develop TC shudder when not properly maintained is where the main cause for the crank snaps originates.

    By regular autobox flushing and service, this can be prevented to a point and therefore the chance of a crank snap minimised.

    Regarding your question re: the crank issue, the too shallow radius undercut is like a weak spot. It is there and when exposed to excessive abuse by vibration etc, it will let go exactly there. That is why the crank breakages all look identical on the Autobox TDV6 2.7 and 3.0 where they happened.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2016/04/12 at 07:41 AM.
    George Bosch
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    How does this effect turned bearings or is that not related to the causes of snapped cranks at all?
    From your information what is the estimated percentage of subs ruined by bearings compared to snapped cranks?
    Stay Safe
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by Disco-Deon View Post
    How does this effect turned bearings or is that not related to the causes of snapped cranks at all?
    From your information what is the estimated percentage of subs ruined by bearings compared to snapped cranks?
    Hi Disco Deon

    the turned bearings issue mainly originates from extended oil change intervals. Check the paragraph in the 1st posting dealing with that. I tried to explain it there.

    The major criteria is to change the oil pump at each cambelt service to ensure maximum oil delivery and pressure.

    The best prevention against the turned bearings issue is 10'000km oil change intervals and you can also add the muti to protect against cold start wear.

    Where cranks have snapped with run bearings, this is normally as a result of the predetermined potential breaking point or weak spot (radius undercut too shallow).

    Hope this helps.
    George Bosch
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    You know I question everything everybody says 7 times George.
    I agree with what you have said regarding the turned bearings.
    The snapped cranks is way above my knowledge base...
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    I am an noob wrt engineering issues.

    If the D3 experienced TC shudder over a period would that weaken a crankshaft and then it would break, and then all the precautionary steps would not mitigate to risk of possible engine failure even if the shudder is addressed?



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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Just out of interest, my TDV6 has been plagued by shudders after I bought it on 135k km's, and is now on 235k km's, with a ecu chipped for more power and is still running, I decided to drive it till the motor goes, which may be still a long way off.

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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Hi Disco Deon

    the turned bearings issue mainly originates from extended oil change intervals. Check the paragraph in the 1st posting dealing with that. I tried to explain it there.

    The major criteria is to change the oil pump at each cambelt service to ensure maximum oil delivery and pressure.

    The best prevention against the turned bearings issue is 10'000km oil change intervals and you can also add the muti to protect against cold start wear.

    Where cranks have snapped with run bearings, this is normally as a result of the predetermined potential breaking point or weak spot (radius undercut too shallow).

    Hope this helps.



    From <http://4x4community.co.za/forum/show....php?p=3190868>
    Hi George
    Readingthis post / reply to Deon, I have certain concerns to what your explanationimplies.

    the turned bearingsissue mainly originates from extended oil change intervals. Check the paragraphin the 1st posting dealing with that. I tried to explain it there.

    Allow meto go back in history.
    MY2005,2006,2007 and 2008 Discovery 3 were on a 12000km or 6 month serviceinterval, but most and I mean approx 60% of all vehicles sold were servicedunder motoplan every 6 months opposed to 12k kms, some or a lot of cars had noteven done 5k kms when they were serviced. I am taking into consideration thatthe bulk of Disco 3's were used for private use and Mom's taxi and the onlytime the car did high mileage was twice or three times a year for vacation,some only once a year.
    MY2009Disco 3's and 4's MY2010 were on mixed service intervals some were on 12/6 andsome were on 24/12 also applies that the bulk were serviced on time opposed tomileage driven.
    MY2011 to2012 the service intervals were firm at 24/12 and from 2013 to date the serviceinterval is 26/12. Apply the same principal as above.

    Now mypoint of conjecture is that the bulk of premature bearing and crank shaftfailures on the Discovery 3's occurred on vehicles in the MY 2005,2006,2007 and2008 which were all whilst under the 3 year motoplan serviced every 12k kms orsix months. Please oblige to how you arrived or what did you use or sample toarrive at the above theory and many others you have posted on the forum i.r.o.service intervals.

    The major criteriais to change the oil pump at each cambelt service to ensure maximum oildelivery and pressure.

    This hasme confused, do you know what maximum/optimum or expected oil pressure shouldbe on the TD/SD V6 motor. Are you referring to cold oil pressure or operatingtemperature oil pressure. Why would you replace a component that is workingperfectly to manufacturers spec, is this just a precaution or preventivemaintenance concept. The very first oil pump we replaced on the Disco 3 wasdone by a very well respected Indy in Pretoria and that motor did a further 10kkms and seized, went on to seize a further 3 times until the crank broke afterrebuilding and finally had a CME upgrade done. The point I am trying to make isnot to contradict you but on the basis of generalising on no irrevocable proof.We have many Disco 3's that have had their second cambelt replaced still on theoriginal oil pump. I have seen only one failure and the cam box was full ofsludge because the car was never serviced ever even during motoplan.

    The best preventionagainst the turned bearings issue is 10'000km oil change intervals and
    you can also add the muti to protect against cold startwear.

    This is aduplication of the first paragraph except this sentence which intrigues me.
    you can also addthe muti to protect against cold start wear.
    Please elaborate on this and define "Muti"

    Where cranks havesnapped with run bearings, this is normally as a result of the predeterminedpotential breaking point or weak spot (radius undercut too shallow).

    I implore you for the concerted efforts you have undertaken on yourcrusade to get to the bottom of this ongoing saga, I have not known anybody tohave the dedication to put so much time, expense and effort into a subject ofthis nature. I would love to see how you obtained this information about thecrank shaft so please share.
    These crank shafts are manufactured by Peugeot the LION of the motorindustry, if what you say is correct then that means it is a design fault atthe drawing board. My reasoning is that the cranks are most likely cut ormachined by a CNC type machine which only does what the program tells it to do.So either it went wrong from design to program or it was just poorly designedperiod. Further if it was the case that means that every crank shaft producedhas the same flaw and I would expect an endemic of failures, every car producedusing this crank shaft is tantamount to have failed or likely to fail. Do youreally think that this would be possible.

    I had a meeting with ZF last week, prior to me posting today to get some more details.

    In a nutshell the 8-speed box is much more immune to TC shudder, than what the 6-speed box is. It has a completely different lock up mechanism. And the 6-speed box and its tendency to develop TC shudder when not properly maintained is where the main cause for the crank snaps originates.


    By regular auto box flushing and service, this can be prevented to a point and therefore the chance of a crank snap minimised.


    From <http://4x4community.co.za/forum/show....php?p=3190868>

    This is another post I find difficult to swallow. Fact the deliverylife of the Discovery 3 was from 2005 to 2009 four years in South Africa thatis. The Discovery 4 is from last quarter 2009 to current, it is a given factthat there were more Disco 4's sold than the Disco 3. Possibly 5 times more aguestimate but it is definitely a hell of a lot more.
    Up until 2013 the 8 speed box was introduced into the lineup of theSDV6 Disco 4. Theoretically from 2009 to the end of 2012 the 6 speed boxed wasin service on the Disco 4, correct. The how come the bearing / crank shaftfailure on the Disco 4 is almost un heard of or let me put it to you this way,there is a huge amount of Disco 4's
    Of that era, far more than the Disco 3 and they both used in conceptthe same 6 speed box. I just cannot believe this statement, it just does notmake any sense to me. I would be very shocked indeed if ZF transmissions whomare commercial members on this forum gave you that information, in fact I amquite sure JLR who scan this forum periodically would be even more shocked thanI am.



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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Hi Peter

    in a nutshell

    if you take a crate full of broken cranks from the 2.7 and 3.0 engines, you will see that the breakage is always in exactly the same spot.

    What puzzles me is that with the number of incidents worldwide, why are the 3.0 engines also affected, albeit in a smaller number of incidents.

    Regarding your comments on the oil pumps. We all know that the time lag between cranking the engine and oil pressure buildup (not when the light extinguishes) is a point of concern on the TDV6 motor. So the change of oil pump at Cambelt time (168'000km) is a prudent preventative step to ensure maximum flow and pressure delivery from the pump. As per your other question re: oil pump naturally at normal oil temperature. The higher the oil temp, the lower the oil pressure at idle. So the oil pump change is actually a no-brainer.

    The only way to measure oil pressure is to fit an oil pressure gauge in the workshop and take a reading. When I had the oil pump changed on my 300Tdi it was reading 0.3 bar at idle before and after the new one was fitted 1.2 Bar, both readings at an oil temperature of 100 Degs C.

    Regarding the difference in incidents on crank failures, there are many more aspects that come to play here, such as the bigger capacity of the engine, which completely changes the load distribution on the crank etc etc. The only way to explain this fully would be to do a vibration analysis on a 2.7 and 3.0 engine in a full laboratory environment. But this would (should) have to be done in the R&D section at manufacturer level.

    All I have done with the initial posting in this thread is to list the known potential pitfalls and how to prevent them.

    Now we both know that only a very small percentage of engines will/would be affected. But for the unlucky ones it can become a major financial burden.

    Regarding the issue with the crank snaps, you will remember that more than three years ago, I pointed out the problem area to you and mentioned that this is a design/machining issue and not a metallurgical problem. The issue with the crank in your D3 was very very rare. I know of less than 4 such incidences worldwide and there you were quite correct it was an issue with incorrect hardening of the journals.

    As far as prevention is concerned, I would even go as far as to fit a new front balancer/pulley at cambelt time. The front sprocket bolt does not have to be loosened at all for that. What is however of paramount importance is that both mating surfaces must be absolutely clean to ensure a flush fit. Also proper torquing of the damper bolts is of utmost importance.

    You know me, I service/maintain all my cars like an airplane, i.e. exchanging of components BEFORE the can fail.

    George
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2016/04/12 at 09:55 AM.
    George Bosch
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Here is a interesting article about crank shafts mods etc. I know it is not LR but the mention of the undercut is worth reading. To much undercut will decrease reliability ?.
    HGB mentioned UC in post #1 above .

    https://books.google.com.na/books?id...0specs&f=false

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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Thanks for your experienced input Peter.
    I appreciate all the time you guys put into our D3's.
    If I may - PLEASE let's not turn this thread into a personal or brand bash. Lets's LEARN.
    Also Peter, sorry man, when quoting and then typing inside other's quotes please change your type colour to make it easier for us old toppies.

    Thanks Guys
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by janseekat View Post
    Here is a interesting article about crank shafts mods etc. I know it is not LR but the mention of the undercut is worth reading. To much undercut will decrease reliability ?.
    HGB mentioned UC in post #1 above .

    https://books.google.com.na/books?id...0specs&f=false
    thank you janseekat!
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by Disco-Deon View Post
    Thanks for your experienced input Peter.
    I appreciate all the time you guys put into our D3's.
    If I may - PLEASE let's not turn this thread into a personal or brand bash. Lets's LEARN.
    Also Peter, sorry man, when quoting and then typing inside other's quotes please change your type colour to make it easier for us old toppies.

    Thanks Guys
    Hi Disco-Deon

    your comments in red:

    that is the precise reason why I posted this. And thanks to Dirk for his "Troll Patrol"
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Quote Originally Posted by janseekat View Post
    Here is a interesting article about crank shafts mods etc. I know it is not LR but the mention of the undercut is worth reading. To much undercut will decrease reliability ?.
    HGB mentioned UC in post #1 above .

    https://books.google.com.na/books?id...0specs&f=false

    Hi Jan
    That looks like an excellent article. I will devour it as soon as I have time.
    Thank you.
    Take Care
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    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    Correct me if I am wrong and perhaps gripps can chime in here
    this seems to be same problem with american v8s where the crank also fails and is often traced to the crank damper (or externally balanced damper being wrong)
    would it not make sense to replace the front pulley as well as a regular maintenance item ?
    and has anyone got a few take off of these front pulleys from failed engines to see if they have "shifted" internally ?
    i am betting that its a significant contributor which is downplayed
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    Swambo broom aka Suzuki SX4

    and many others sold and gone but not forgotten

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Tzaneen
    Age
    67
    Posts
    1,054
    Thanked: 65

    Default Re: Preliminary Investigation into TDV6 Crank Failures

    I supplied a snapped crank WITH the damper that was on the crank when it snapped.Don't know what the outcome of the test was on the damper or if any test was done on the damper.The idea was to compare that damper with a new one.Carel Kriek volunteered to do the testing.
    Regards,
    Frans
    2012 RR TDV8 4.4
    2006 TDV6 SE A/T(Sold)
    2013 Bush Lapa Boskriek B142 met CKGR strepe
    2008 FL2 TD4 SE A/T
    1968 Renault 8 Gordini

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