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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverNodashi View Post
    How often do you replace your kettle?
    about once a year and we only use it about 3-5 times per day

    As I said, my commercial brewer friends replace their 3.5kW elements every couple of months.
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  2. #42
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    about once a year and we only use it about 3-5 times per day

    As I said, my commercial brewer friends replace their 3.5kW elements every couple of months.
    I suspect that in a kettle the temperature range or extremes is much greater. Your normal geyser probably experiences a range of about 45 - 60 degrees.

    Your kettle, I would think a range from 15 - > 100 deg. Much larger thermal expansion effects, no. In fact if the kettle boils proper the element itself could be much higher than 100deg. (Cavitation)
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  3. #43
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    to further stir up things - you get elements, and then you get elements ...


    sadly the "good stuff" does NOT show an SABS mark. So it is not easy to tell the good from the bad ....


    We have one site with 200 geysers. The first batch popped elements quickly. Insisted it be replaced with the "good stuff", 4 years down the line still no issues. Phase of the project, same issues ... Without proper markings this item is difficult to police .....

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    I suspect that in a kettle the temperature range or extremes is much greater. Your normal geyser probably experiences a range of about 45 - 60 degrees.

    Your kettle, I would think a range from 15 - > 100 deg. Much larger thermal expansion effects, no. In fact if the kettle boils proper the element itself could be much higher than 100deg. (Cavitation)
    Exactly. So switch off your geyser @ 06h00 and by 18h00 in winter the geyser temp is probably down to under 20 deg C?

    So then you switch it on and it works it's bum off getting to the 65deg C setting. That's on the edge of its design envelope. Do that every day and what is bound to happen?
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Erm, you said 3kWh.

    This time I will do the maths for you.

    3kWh @ R1.66 per kWh = R5.00

    You claim a "typical realistic saving of R5 a day"

    I think there is lots of substance there.
    Hehehehe ....

    Uhm ja ... think it was ME that QUOTED a figure of 3kW.h day of "standing losses". One of those figures that comes from reading way too many technical documents .... Certainly wont be trying prove it.

    PS - current electricity tarriff is closer to R1.90 per kW.h in the Unites States of the Western Cape (have not seen the official new rates since 1 July 2017, not on the COCT web as yet).


    My measured savings of about R2,50 per day SEEMS to confirm the "reported" 3kW.h of standing losses per day.


    BUT, I take exception to your milk comparison ... High time you went to the shops with your wife !!! Have you SEEN the cost of milk lately !! The total electrical savings from a timer wont buy milk for your porridge ...

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    So for the fun of it.

    I asked somebody to do the calculations on what you save with a 55deg thermostat set point on your geyser, but they declined. Not as a challenge or a jibe or to prove anything.

    For no reason other than to make people aware.

    --------------------------------------
    Calculations and figures borrowed from the internet

    Figures taken from the standard formula published elsewhere.

    Typical 150L geyser at an ambient of 20 deg C

    Electricity rate R1.66 per unit (kWh) - My rate on my bill here in Hillcrest is R1.58 i9ncl VAT

    Temperature : Standing losses (kWh/day)
    65 : 2.278
    60 : 2.025
    55 : 1.772
    50 : 1.519
    45 : 1.266
    40 : 1.012

    So lets see now, lets take:

    An average "normal" home setting of 60 deg C : loss is 2.125 X 30 X R1.66 = R100.85

    An suggested "low" home setting of 55 deg C : loss is 1.772 X 30 X R1.66 = R88.25

    -------------------------------------------------
    The difference is R100.85 - R88.25 = R12.59

    So if you set your Geyser at 55 instead of 60 deg you stand to save R12.59 a MONTH.

    Which ironically is way less than the cost of a liter of full cream milk.

    http://www.woolworths.co.za/store/ca...FLa!-760429522

    -------------------------------------------------
    Even if we use a very "hot" 65 and 55 deg the saving is still only R25.20 (And that is best case.)

    And that's at an ambient of 20 deg C. In Summer, in SA, these losses will tend to zero.

    Somebody may like to do the sums on how much you can save in standing losses from switching the geyser off for ever.

    THE END -----------------
    Last edited by Fluffy; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:50 AM.
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  7. #47
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    Exactly. So switch off your geyser @ 06h00 and by 18h00 in winter the geyser temp is probably down to under 20 deg C?

    So then you switch it on and it works it's bum off getting to the 65deg C setting. That's on the edge of its design envelope. Do that every day and what is bound to happen?
    Dunno. The geyserwise has been switching out geyser on and off since 2012. So, I honestly don't know what should happen. Well, it just works (trademark )

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  9. #48
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    When you are so set to prove a point, it is not too difficult to make assumptions and dig up stats till you get there...

    Someone should really read "How to lie with statistics" by Darrel Huff, a standard textbook introduction to the subject of statistics for many college students.
    Eggie.

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  10. #49
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverNodashi View Post
    Dunno. The geyserwise has been switching out geyser on and off since 2012. So, I honestly don't know what should happen. Well, it just works (trademark )
    Seems I must have a dud element .... been using timers since 2001 .... not lost a single element as yet.

  11. #50
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    A geyser timer does not save power.Been there done that.The guys who install the geysers turn your geyser down a notch and thats where the saving comes.I ran for 4 months and spent 200-300 more by running a timer on my normal temp before the timer was installed..
    Insulate and turn it down and you save as stated already
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  12. #51
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eggie View Post
    When you are so set to prove a point, it is not too difficult to make assumptions and dig up stats till you get there...

    Someone should really read "How to lie with statistics" by Darrel Huff, a standard textbook introduction to the subject of statistics for many college students.
    That wasn't statistics, that was field trial proven scientific evidence. It is completely consistent and typical of studies of that type.

    You will find a hundred similar results on the Internet.
    Cheers

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  13. #52
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
    A geyser timer does not save power.Been there done that.The guys who install the geysers turn your geyser down a notch and thats where the saving comes.I ran for 4 months and spent 200-300 more by running a timer on my normal temp before the timer was installed..
    Insulate and turn it down and you save as stated already
    No, no no, nooo.
    Fluffy has already 'proven' that he can almost save a litre of milk's worth of power by fitting a timer.
    Eggie.

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  14. #53
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eggie View Post
    No, no no, nooo.
    Fluffy has already 'proven' that he can almost save a litre of milk's worth of power by fitting a timer.
    I did no such thing - my posts went about setting the thermostat at 55 deg c
    Cheers

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  15. #54
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
    A geyser timer does not save power.Been there done that.The guys who install the geysers turn your geyser down a notch and thats where the saving comes.I ran for 4 months and spent 200-300 more by running a timer on my normal temp before the timer was installed..
    Insulate and turn it down and you save as stated already
    Mr G with all due respect. I have done this since 2001, at my own house - without touching the thermostat. It DOES save power !!!


    BUT, only small amounts as per my previous posts in this thread

  16. #55
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    That wasn't statistics, that was field trial proven scientific evidence. It is completely consistent and typical of studies of that type.

    You will find a hundred similar results on the Internet.
    and there I thought is was your subtle way to show that you have checked up on the price of milk



    Fluffy do you think this would be a good time to talk about the "bigger saving items" vs the "minor savings", and the law of diminishing returns ....


    Wonder how many contemplate the savings of a timer, while have 10 to 20 of 50W downlighters sucking up energy ....




    jokes aside, I wonder how many really UNDERSTAND what can be done for the big savings, and what actions have lower savings ?

  17. #56
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Just a question. As the solar matts for pool heating work very well, would they also work on a geyser? I have them as I am closinf the pool.
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  18. #57
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisF View Post
    and there I thought is was your subtle way to show that you have checked up on the price of milk



    Fluffy do you think this would be a good time to talk about the "bigger saving items" vs the "minor savings", and the law of diminishing returns ....


    Wonder how many contemplate the savings of a timer, while have 10 to 20 of 50W downlighters sucking up energy ....




    jokes aside, I wonder how many really UNDERSTAND what can be done for the big savings, and what actions have lower savings ?
    PM me an email address. My hands are a bit tied with releasing too much information in the public domain.
    Cheers

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  19. #58
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nambro View Post
    Just a question. As the solar matts for pool heating work very well, would they also work on a geyser? I have them as I am closinf the pool.
    ja ... NEE ....

    when the sun shines it WORKS. But for the morning shower it will top up the geyser with even colder water .... so it will require a nifty little control circuit to really work.

  20. #59
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Chris, have to agree with you fully on the other places where we can save.


    As we renovated the house extensively when we moved in we were fortunate enough to plan ahead a bit. None of this happened overnight, it was a long, planned journey and as the oportunity arrived, we changed to lower energy items.Both on Electricity and water.


    All downligters are LED, all the tubes are now also LED, except two under the carport that only get used occasionaly. Once they pack up, they will also be replaced. The one bathroom still has a 'ball" light with a CFL. That bathroom will be re-done somewhere in future as well.


    Underfloor heating went in, albeit electrical. Nowadays it's not needed anymore as it seems Spring is here today in Pretoria.
    The VERY ineffiecient 1980's oven was replaced with a modern one. The Hob went the gas route, we go 15 months on a 19kg. My wife was without a hob for two years whilst re-building the kithen. Both the Hob and Oven was procured in 2007 but only fitted when we did the kitchen. (the cash from wedding gifts)


    When we moved in, in 2007 the geyser was in need of replacement, that went onto solar. At the time quite a few guys thought I was nuts. The projected ROI was 5 years, after the hikes in 2007/8 that paid for itself in 3 years.


    It is a bit small for the household now with two kids so in winter I do run the element as needed, so a timer or geyserwise will probably take the effort out of it.But the fact that someone needs to switch it on makes for a energy-conscious mindset.


    When the flat's geyser went in 2015, it also went solar. When the pool pump went in 2012 it was replaced with a Badu Ec-touch, now the pool chews 450 W instead of 1200 W.


    Along the way the DB was prepared for PV integration, throught the years the cabling and lines from where the ideal PV location was, were installed.


    Last year we finally installed the Bosca closed fireplace. Last year we went through R 1200.00 worth of wood that needs to be added to my energy mix. So far this year, four bags.


    In 2014 we installed an energy-meter, by 2015 I had a year's worth of data for our enery usage, the fact that it yells when you use more than 5 KW also makes us aware of usage habits. So before I started planning the PV setup, I tried to limit consumption first of all. My Base load hovers around 450 W as there is a server room complete with router, switch, Server and UPS running 24/7. On average we use 22 KWh per day in summer and from May to August 35 KWh p/d. The floor is on at 18 deg, just to keep the screed floor warm to the touch.



    In March my wife was retrenched and we used her package to install a 3.5 Kw grid tie system. From 19 May it averages 18 Kw/h p/d. The ROI for this was 60 months. With Eskom's 19.9% request for next year this goes down to 50 months.
    None of these were cheap or fast but planned in advanced and the ROI was thorougly calculated. Yes there was a few issues along the way. Bi-pin LEDs for Kithen Cabinet fittings suck big time, a well-know brand's LED GU10 lights do not last a year, the el-cheapo ones in the bathroom has been running for 9 years, steam and all.


    The next big step is to go battery-backup for load shedding but at this stage running a generator is a hell of a lot cheaper than around R 150k to get that installed. What might change my mind is if/when the City of Tshwane replaces my old analogue meter with a smart meter or we start going over to Time of Usage.


    Ps the retired engineer across the road that ran the calcks for me is building windfarms nowadays. He had Solar Geysers since 1985 and PV since 2000. His household is completely grid independent.
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  21. #60
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    Default Re: Gcarbon - another scam?

    Wynand CONGRATS on a nice project !!!

    Ours is also an ongoing learning curve, and ever evolving.


    Having an electro-mechanical background helps Having a neighbour and lifelong buddy that is an electrician who also dabbles with energy efficient alternatives helps even more ...


    So here are some of the things we did :
    - gas hob. it gets used most nights, and still the gas seems to last forever ....

    - my neighbour is an accredited installer for Geyserwise, so SEEING his dual element PV system in action I finally took the plunge ... and YES, also got lots of sny comments .... Almost 2 years now, one more year and it is paid off. (okay, helps that we swop out labour on projects so I got a very good deal...)

    - My neighbour had a couple of battery powered LED lights long before the load shedding. We all laughed at him .... he laughed last. I did our 12V installation specifically to have an inverter and 220V during load shedding. Using it for lights was an after thought. When I started with the lights it was a bit of a shock to see what wattage was used where, and especially some high wattage units being used for long hours. Having a single story house provides a nice ceiling space, so I could run additional wiring in the ceiling. Switching the lights ... well, I copied my neighbour -
    Click image for larger version. 

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    4-circuits for the house, with a similar 4-circuit unit for the garage, braai-room and outside lights.

    For the lights itself I changed the 220V light fittings to more energy efficient options (at the time I still thought of the 12V lights as back-up). Inside the fitting I arranged LED strips, with the translucent covers on you DONT realise it is LED strips rather than normal "bulbs" - though you need a few more LED as the cover reduces the light a bit.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    For the kitchen I did this -
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    These lights WORKS !! so much so that we dont use the 220V units at all, with the exception of the bathrooms where the extract fan runs with the 220V light.

    From a cost point of view, or RIO, the lights makes the least sense. BUT the convenience of being to carry on with your life in the event of a power failure is just priceless.

    For fun I added a car radio with quality speakers in the braai room and garage
    Click image for larger version. 

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    We were busy installing the pool when the loadshedding hit hard .... I opted for a Grundfos PV/220V pool pump. Works NICE ! But the ROI does not really make sense ..... From a financial perspective a variable power pump on a timer would have been a cheaper life cycle item. Hey, we live and learn .....


    helps to have a large flat roof over the garage ....
    Click image for larger version. 

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    PS - my panels are flat (for all practical purposes), my neighbours panels are at about 35degrees, and facing North. INTERESTING to compare year round figures between the systems !!!!!! Summer time is much of a muchness, long sun hours means there is excess power. Winter time the lack of sun hours combined with the low sun-angle really shows up !!

    PPS - real pain in the Western Cape with all the rules regarding "integrated PV systems" .... thats why all three my installations are "stand-alone" ....

    PPPS - for those following these discussions, please note that there should be two new SABS standards published December 2017 (okay, this have been promised a couple of times), relating to PV installations .... going to be interesting to see what we would have to change to our systems to then get current COC's ....

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